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Tracer Missile, I get it.


Kiphere

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I understand why Tracer gets so much hate and why people think it's OP/whatever negatives they want to through out there. Tracer becomes sort of the defacto ability for Mercs when they get it. from a pure Heat/Dmg ratio perspective theres not a lot of point in doing anything else on a single target and we quickly get into a grind from 20-30 just tossing tracers until the loot beam shows up.

 

Here's what happens though...

 

People see us doing this in groups/flashpoints/pvp, it's our most effecient attack so of course we're gonna use it but all they see is TM spam which makes them think we're "abusing it"

 

fact is, we don't have any other abilities worth shooting, it's not that TM rox0rs our box0rs it's that the rest of our abilities are just sort of pointless because they suck in comparison.

 

To that regard here's a question...

 

Would you rather have three buttons to push that all did similar DPS, all added the various benes we get from TM separately and ended up in a wash as far as total damage and status effects applied? Or would you rather just throw TMs out there until you got your stacks and moved into the rest of the rotation?

 

Option A would make less people whine, both options, mechanically speaking are the same.

 

 

TM is a TALENT not a learned ability first of all, it just happens to be in the more appealing Arsenal tree because at first glance it appears to be 'the better' tree for leveling so more people take it.

 

It does 827dmg, and applies a 4% armor debuff (note, armor not increased damage, just an armor debuff) up to 5 times for a total of 20% arpen. takes 1.5seconds to cast.

 

Snipe, an IA trained ability does 2739-2917dmg with a 1.5second cast time, no cool down.. also spammable.

 

that's three times the damage, same cast time. Doesn't give you the armor debuff but I'm pretty sure if a sniper spams snipe and a merc spams TM on identical players the snipers gonna down their target quite a bit faster.

 

Why don't people post about "snipe spam"?

 

Oh yeah, the ability has 'other' things it does too, thats right!

 

Let's use as much as we can to get our TM upped a bit.

 

Mando warheads = 2 points, we'll get another 6% damage on TMs (only 194% to go to get to snipe damage!)

Throw in some Power Barrier which gives us (after 7-8 seconds of casting) a 10% damage reduction shield., that's another 2 points.

Ahh, target lock. We can increase the damage of rail shot (which hits like a wet noodle without this) by up to 30% after those 8 seconds of casting that's another talent point.

Ok, Barrage, tracers can increase damage and finish the cooldown of unload. That costs 3 points, doesn't really help tracer but hey... 3 more points.

Ok, now the big boy, Heatseeker Missiles PEW, 1 more point, does 784kinetic damage + 5% per heat signature, assuming we have 5 as we should, that's 25% more damage.

 

Ok, so, those are the TM talents that matter as far as it being "OP" right.

 

So with mando warheads TM should do 877ish damage, not counting gear.

I'll be nice and say that 4% damage will be added per heat signature even though that's not entirely accurate given how armor works it wouldn't go up exactly 4%, it'd be less than that. But we're playin the numbers game and I'm tryin to skew it in a way that makes TM look OP, so we'll just go with that.

 

So, that alone, lets assume I'm one button warrioring it in Huttball and throwing nothing but TMs out.

 

it'll be 877 > 912 > 947 > 982 > 1017 > 1052 (full stack of heat sig). So, now you're doing 1052.

 

At this point you've cast 6 times to get a 'full hit' with full stack at 1052. In 6 casts you've done a total of 5787dmg but you do have a 10% decrease in damage on you now that you've been standing still for 9 seconds and it's a good thing cause you're bound to have been noticed by now. That set up only cost you 5 total talent points since I didn't include railshot or heatseeking missiles into that set up.

 

Ok, sniper, you're turn to spam a single ability.

We'll assume you're weak because you saw a Merc with a TM button and you're hitting for minimum damage with Snipe.

2739 > 2739 > Oops, wtfs the point in continueing you just did more damage in 2 casts.

 

With our arpen buff from TM even at 5stacks it doesn't do the damage snipe does.

 

"but mr roosterkiphere, you get a dmg decrease" Ok, hit your shield probe after those first two casts, you get an actual absorb shield that does more, and with talents you can get a heal from your adrenaline probe which more than makes up for our 10% dmg reduction, and you can squeeze in a couple more snipes after the GCD to double the amount of damage we do.

 

People complaining about TM spam are idiots. Plain and simple, I can do the exact same argument above with just about any other DPS class. Everyone has at least 1 spammable attack, ours is a talent in one tree and even after 5 points its still lackluster compared to other classes innate spam attack that costs htem no talents and can even be boosted via talents.

 

the only way we can do competitive DPS in PVE is by using our talents to our advantage and throwing in those unloads, railshots, and HSMs. We are not pivoting on a single OP ability, we're TIED to it and locked into casting it at least a few times just to be able to move onto other skills and do any real damage.

 

Please, nerf TM spam, break the ability up into 3-5 more viable attacks that actually give us a rotation that matters instead of launchign 5 rockets out of our heads before we can do anything else one time and just go back to launching rockets.

 

Mercs don't spam TM cause it's OP, we spam TM cause we have to, trust me, we don't want to.

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You went to a lot of effort, but:

1) You pointed out 1/2 of the real truth when you said "People complaining about TM spam are idiots. Plain and simple".

2) The other half is that People who only spam Tracer Missille are idiots. You kind of pointed it out when you said "the only way we can do competitive DPS in PVE is by using our talents to our advantage and throwing in those unloads, railshots, and HSMs".

The reason they are idiots is that in PvE the spammer is not doing max DPS and in PvP the spammer is easy to interrupt, LoS, etc. or kill. So the only people complaining are idiots who have watched idiots spam TM, but are too dumb to outdamage or kill them and come here to whine about it.

 

So we can simplfy it to:

For both PvP and PvE, if you just sit there and spam TM or if you complain about someone who sits and spams TM, then you are an idiot.

 

 

Therefore, you went to a lot of effort to fix something that isn't broken just to try to get people who are idiots to stop whining.

 

I applaud your efforts, but I think you are shoveling sand against the tide with a teaspoon.

 

The real problem is that they are idiots and as Ron White says: "You can't fix stupid."

Edited by TempestasSilva
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You went to a lot of effort, but:

1) You pointed out 1/2 of the real truth when you said "People complaining about TM spam are idiots. Plain and simple".

2) The other half is that People who only spam Tracer Missille are idiots. You kind of pointed it out when you said "the only way we can do competitive DPS in PVE is by using our talents to our advantage and throwing in those unloads, railshots, and HSMs".

The reason they are idiots is that in PvE the spammer is not doing max DPS and in PvP the spammer is easy to interrupt, LoS, etc. or kill. So the only people complaining are idiots who have watched idiots spam TM, but are too dumb to outdamage or kill them and come here to whine about it.

 

So we can simplfy it to:

For both PvP and PvE, if you just sit there and spam TM or if you complain about someone who sits and spams TM, then you are an idiot.

 

 

Therefore, you went to a lot of effort to fix something that isn't broken just to try to get people who are idiots to stop whining.

 

I applaud your efforts, but I think you are shoveling sand against the tide with a teaspoon.

 

The real problem is that they are idiots and as Ron White says: "You can't fix stupid."

 

 

^ this

 

Also i use a well rounded No heat problem rotation of skills depending on situations.

 

for the most part i use Unload > TMx3 > Rail shot >Power shot x3 > Unload spam till things die

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Its a tinge unfair to compare your spam to snipe wen

 

tracer missile benefits from a personal 35% armor pen stance you have (snipers have no stance benefits, the can share an armor pen effect to the group is all)

 

So vs the same target, your ahead on armor pen.

 

Also you have a talent that refunds basically half the cost of TM when you crit. It also does 30% more damage (snipe has nothing similar).

 

Attacks with TM stack up your rail shot (at best, crits with snipe shave a second off ambush which itself still has a 15 second CD)

 

Attacks with TM proc your unload for mega damage.

 

All of the above benefit from your personal stance armor pen effect to, so adjust the values.

 

A marksman does good damage, no doubt, but its done by weaving skills, which takes alot more mental pacing vs the exception based method of tracer missile (tracer until X stacks, then do Y. Tracer until X procs, then do Y, etc).

 

Either way, you presented an argument with an incomplete picture. Politicians do the same thing to make their points seem more acceptable.

 

I dont think anything is wrong with tracer spam, other than a 3 year old could do it.

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Armor penetration...Uh-huh...Let's be generous here and claim that full rataka gear does 40% energy+kinetic damage reduction with heavy armor.

 

So with 55% armor pen buff, TM would ignore 22% of damage reduction, which still doesn't really brings TM near Snipe in terms of damage.

 

Than there's Unload...A 3 seconds cast that is deflected by jedi's glowsticks, absorbed by tank's shields and deflected by sniper/gunslinger's cover. Oh and it is a 3 seconds root for the sake of damage that is barely higher than TM. So suffice to say that it's a waste of time against snipers, warriors and sorcs(sorcs just stun/cc/interrupt/knockback you all the time).

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It does 827dmg, and applies a 4% armor debuff (note, armor not increased damage, just an armor debuff) up to 5 times for a total of 20% arpen. takes 1.5seconds to cast.

 

Snipe, an IA trained ability does 2739-2917dmg with a 1.5second cast time, no cool down.. also spammable.

 

I'm curious where you pull these numbers from. They seem just a bit off from each other. As in, one was taken from Torhead's skill calculator and is a number that has no relevance, while the other looks to be taken from a well geared character in game.

 

Not saying that would change the results, but, well, the whole 3x bit is laughable. Would make about as much sense as comparing my pyro Merc's skill tab listed tracer damage of 1409-1457 to my IA's snipe of 1327-1502...and just neglecting to mention that's an Operative, who cannot use Sniper Rifles.

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It does 827dmg, and applies a 4% armor debuff (note, armor not increased damage, just an armor debuff) up to 5 times for a total of 20% arpen. takes 1.5seconds to cast.

 

Snipe, an IA trained ability does 2739-2917dmg with a 1.5second cast time, no cool down.. also spammable.

 

that's three times the damage, same cast time. Doesn't give you the armor debuff but I'm pretty sure if a sniper spams snipe and a merc spams TM on identical players the snipers gonna down their target quite a bit faster.

 

Why don't people post about "snipe spam"?

 

 

Why do you mention TM's heat cost in the first part of your post, but choose to ignore it during your comparison of TM and Snipe?

 

You want to know why no one posts about "snipe spam"? Because it doesn't exist in the same way you're thinking. It's obvious you haven't played a Sniper (yet for some reason you feel experienced enough to teach others about Snipe). Snipe has high energy cost, and has a prerequisite before it's use - you must be in cover. Not too bad of an extra step if you know how to play your Sniper, but it's 1 extra step nonetheless.

 

This is why Snipe can't be spammed - unless you're using it as a last ditch effort to burn someone down and willing to be waaaay past the ideal 40% energy regen sweet spot.

 

I don't know much about TM other than I only have a few moments to LOS you or cloak if not dot'd (interrupting TM is rarely an option for a melee), but I thought I'd stop by and fix your assumptions about Snipe.

Edited by Sanctioned
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I have absolutely no idea how you come up with those numbers.. I'm definitely sure that my lvl 30 arsenal specced mercenary was doing about 800 damage per hit with TM and now my lvl 50 one with 1400-ish aim is doing 1600 per hit (with 5 armor penet debuffs stacked already) and 2600 on crits (can go 3k+ with biochem usables and relics) in pve. By PVE I mean Hard Mode flashpoints. The rest of the stuff goes even higher than that with the required buffs to be used and even though I have not played a Sniper, I'm definitely sure that they dont hit 2.7k+ with each snipe. I'm sure various videos on youtube of lvl 50 snipers would show that...

 

If you're wondering about comparisons of how much they crit for what I usually saw has been

 

TM - 2.6k - 3k

RS - 3kish (with 5 Tracer locks up)

Unload - Each tick can crit for 2kish, i think there are 3 ticks not sure (with barrage)

Heatseeker Missiles - 4k+ (with 5 heat signatures on the target)

 

I usually dont use power shot unless i'm interrupted or something, from my in game experience (that is hitting mobs over and over and over again) power shots does less damage almost each time than tracer missiles even when the mobs are fully debuffed with TM. Will need to try it out more to see, besides since it does not vent heat out I wouldnt want to use it instead of TM anyways when i'm not doing the others...

 

But if you honestly are doing 800 per hit with TM you should repair your gear or something coz I remember to be doing 1200 per hit with TM when I dinged to 50 fresh.

Edited by Aliathe
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Its not so much the fact that TM is so much better or more efficient than our other attacks, but instead its the fact that TM is what makes those other attacks worth using.

 

For instance, Unload can do alot more dmg than TM once they have the armor debuff and you have the barrage proc up, I have had minde crit for 1200-1500 per shot and its 3 shots.

Rail shot I have seen hit for 2200 on a crit and its very low heat plus is instant and can be used on the run, but for max effect you need heat sig x5 plus tracer lock x5.

And of course HSM crits for over 3k regularly, and is instant, but again, need heat sig x5 for full effect.

Fusion missle has its uses, if enemys are grouped it hits hard and the dot is nice dmg. But its heat cost is prohibative so you need to use thermal override with it.

For an arsenal spec i do find powershot pretty much useless but situationally, the other two instant missle attacks have their uses as well.

 

So you can see its not our best attack all the time, nor always the most efficient, but is required for our other worth while abilities to actually be worth while.

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I think most of the hate on Tracer Missile is the fact that it is our main Nuke as Arsenal. It has such a distinctive look and sound that you can't miss a Mercenary using it. I think that if they replaced the animation and sound, trading it with that of Fusion Missile there wouldn't be as much whining about it.

 

I think one of the things people miss in pvp is they see the Bounty Hunter casting it but they miss the Rail Shot and Heatseeker Missile that hit them so their goes from full to 75% in a single hit from what appears to be only Tracer Missile

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I have a 43 sniper, and 37 merc, as soon as I hit 40 on her to get HSM, I will do a comparision per skill. From playing my sniper I noticed that despite having big numbers attached to your skills, and even using the 20% arp skill on every mobs before shooting it, the dmg is really low unless you crit. Yey I just hit that silver mob for 600ish on a sniper! Amazing dmg for 20 energy? come again? Ambush is only skill a sniper has that can come close to dmg potencial of merc because it has a talented 20% arp, so it tops at 40%. Also you complain about unload being deflected? (and railshot too). Well all sniper attacks except explo probe can be deflected / dodged etc. All their attacks do weapon dmg - energy: snipe, ambush, followthrough, series of shots etc. The only difference between sniper and merc is that sniper has a shot to use under 30% hp - no idea why mercs don't get something like this, most dps have something similar.

 

In all seriousness, my dmg feels more reliable on merc than on sniper, as I have high unmitigated dmg non-reliant on crits (at lvl 36 am hitting 800+ on TM non crit, yes I stack aim and power since I can't get enough crit when leveling anyway, and I prefer to know I can 3xTM and railshot any strong, without hoping that I crit some abilities unlike my sniper which can take a strong in a crit snipe + crit probe + crit ambush + followthrough).

 

We have better mitigation from armor, hence why our defenses are not as good as sniper ones - shield probe + ballistic dumpners + aoe shield, so we will mitigate more dmg in the end (most of the dmg you will take will be kinetic or energy, unlike sniper you can dispell yourself of any tech / physical dots / debuffs etc).

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I think one of the things people miss in pvp is they see the Bounty Hunter casting it but they miss the Rail Shot and Heatseeker Missile that hit them so their goes from full to 75% in a single hit from what appears to be only Tracer Missile

 

QFE/QFT

 

while a few TMs can take a decent chunk of health away by far our other three abilities hit harder, we can take 5-6K health away with just HSM + RS, theres nothing like a 3.5K crit from HSM to put the fear of god in someone. i wish people would be less ignorant and pay attention to whats hitting them, TM and HSM have different animations but im assuming they are not noticed and are being considered as the same thing. missiles are missiles i guess

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People see us doing this in groups/flashpoints/pvp, it's our most effecient attack so of course we're gonna use it but all they see is TM spam which makes them think we're "abusing it"

 

fact is, we don't have any other abilities worth shooting, it's not that TM rox0rs our box0rs it's that the rest of our abilities are just sort of pointless because they suck in comparison.

 

 

 

others are pointing out other things so i will just deal with this part

 

1) tracer is NOT our most efficient attack (efficient being dps per heat) unload is our most efficient attack, and with the proc (that comes from tracer missile) and the buff from the tree it is not only the most efficient, it pumps out the most damage per cast.

 

2) if you think our other abilities suck in comparison i disagree, my biggest single hit is Heatseaker with stacks of heat signatures, it is an instant cast, does more damage than tracer (again you need tracer to get the heat signatures)... rail shot does about the same damage for me (with a 5 stack that comes from tracer) as tracer and is insta cast

 

so there you are 3 better attacks, all three LINKED to tracer through proc's

 

Toss in 20% damage increase from stacks and 10% less damage taken from procs....

 

It isn't that heat seeker is best, but it increases damage on our 3 best attacks.

 

so even if you only needed 1 tracer to get the positive effects you would have tracer/unload, tracer/HS, tracer/rail

 

tracer would be 50% of your attacks therefore people would whine that we spam it, as it is I try to get off 2 or 3 tracers before a HS, I use tracer until it proc's for unload, and I rarely use rail without at least 4 stacks...

 

so basically tracer is 60-80% of the attacks used to gain maximum benefit, it is inherent in the design of arsenal that this be true to maximize dps.

 

we don't use tracer because it is so great, we use tracer because of how great it makes our other attacks.

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QFE/QFT

 

while a few TMs can take a decent chunk of health away by far our other three abilities hit harder, we can take 5-6K health away with just HSM + RS, theres nothing like a 3.5K crit from HSM to put the fear of god in someone. i wish people would be less ignorant and pay attention to whats hitting them, TM and HSM have different animations but im assuming they are not noticed and are being considered as the same thing. missiles are missiles i guess

 

i blame the lack of a combat log tbh

 

its bio wares fault

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I will start this off by saying, Hi my name is Pandera in game and I was once a Tracer Missile Spammer. I am now a Bodyguard specced merc whom loves PvP. From a healers perspective I can usually keep myself alive for awhile vs X amount of people respectfully. But I think its slightly awkward when I can not heal thru 2 dps if one happens to be a TM spammer or a grav round spammer. This is more in my mind that they can have my armor down 20% in 3 secs. Oh ya LoSing them is a great idea but lets see you find LoS on that particular BH in the time it takes them to get ur armor down. So here is where the QQ would start and asking for a major nerf. I only just want the casting time increased by .5 seconds. That might now seem like a lot because it truly isnt but it will change the whole aspect of the mechanic and make it from the soul focus of the ability to dps and turn it more into an ability that makes people think of changing their rotation up to produce better results. Just my personal opinion. Hopefully people can agree with me. Thank you for reading.
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I am a merc and I never use tracer missile. I don't know what this is you're talking about "we have to". I leveled 1-50 as bodyguard, did just fine. I pvp as pyro, and am doing more than fine at 400k damage a warzone. I've actually never even shot a tracer missile before. Stop justifying your lack of skill with claims of it being the mechanics of the game.
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I will start this off by saying, Hi my name is Pandera in game and I was once a Tracer Missile Spammer. I am now a Bodyguard specced merc whom loves PvP. From a healers perspective I can usually keep myself alive for awhile vs X amount of people respectfully. But I think its slightly awkward when I can not heal thru 2 dps if one happens to be a TM spammer or a grav round spammer. This is more in my mind that they can have my armor down 20% in 3 secs. Oh ya LoSing them is a great idea but lets see you find LoS on that particular BH in the time it takes them to get ur armor down. So here is where the QQ would start and asking for a major nerf. I only just want the casting time increased by .5 seconds. That might now seem like a lot because it truly isnt but it will change the whole aspect of the mechanic and make it from the soul focus of the ability to dps and turn it more into an ability that makes people think of changing their rotation up to produce better results. Just my personal opinion. Hopefully people can agree with me. Thank you for reading.

 

 

it is 33% longer, reducing our dps by probably .7*.33 =23.1% damage reduction assuming we need to use tracer about 70% of the time to keep the stacks up for rail shot even if only 40% of our shots are TM it would be a 13.2% reduction in TM dps PLUS the loss of dps because debuffs/buffs are not maximized

 

it truly IS a lot, and a major breaking of the class, and in pve we will not be welcome in raids

 

we need to hit 3 tm to get 5 heat sigs, (for hs) we need to hit 5 tm to get 5 stacks for armor debuff and damage protection and rails shot ... oh and dont forget the 33% drop in procs for unload (over time) which is a 25% dps boost, you just lightented our unload dps by 8 %

 

to summarize you have requested

 

a 33% dps reduction in TM (equating to between 13 and 23% overall dps reduction

a 8% dps drop to unload damage as well as longer between unload shot

a reduction in bonus damage to rail shot (full stacks would take an extra 2.5 seconds to achieve which in pvp is eternity)

a reduction in bonus damage to heat seeker (full stacks would take and extra 1.5 seconds to achieve which in pvp is an eternity)

 

 

I would guestimate you are looking at a 20-30% reduction in overall damage we could do

 

 

What people dont realize (surprised you dont if you actually used the class) that TM positively effects pretty much everything else arsenal uses except for quickshot,

 

TM is the base of the pyramid, nerf it and the trickle up effect would destroy the tree

 

your request is game breaking for the class.

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I am a merc and I never use tracer missile. I don't know what this is you're talking about "we have to". I leveled 1-50 as bodyguard, did just fine. I pvp as pyro, and am doing more than fine at 400k damage a warzone. I've actually never even shot a tracer missile before. Stop justifying your lack of skill with claims of it being the mechanics of the game.

 

if you are arsenal, and you do not use tracer missle you are a very very very bad player

 

if you are arsenal, and you use only tracer missle you are only a bad player

 

fact

 

BG and pyro DONT GET TRACER MISSLE lol

 

try being BG and not using healing scan

 

try being pyro and not using rail shot

 

... now you understand.

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QFE/QFT

 

while a few TMs can take a decent chunk of health away by far our other three abilities hit harder, we can take 5-6K health away with just HSM + RS, theres nothing like a 3.5K crit from HSM to put the fear of god in someone. i wish people would be less ignorant and pay attention to whats hitting them, TM and HSM have different animations but im assuming they are not noticed and are being considered as the same thing. missiles are missiles i guess

 

This probably a good explanation. People fear TM spam when in reality, TM is just a tool that gets you to a place where another ability really hurts you.

 

Without repeating my whole post from earlier:

"For both PvP and PvE, if you just sit there and spam TM or if you complain about someone who sits and spams TM, then you are an idiot."

 

Ignorant, may be nicer than idiot, but the point is the same.

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If the person you were shooting wasn't allowed to move, the BH rotations would be able to be done by a brain-dead person.

 

The challenge in playing a PvP merc is in finding a way to get through those rotations while also maintaining intelligent positioning on the battlefield with limited mobility. A large percentage of your rotation is filled with abilities that cast.

 

So yes, if you're being ignored as a Merc, it's very easy and effective to become a turret with tracer spam. But what separates the good Mercs from the bad ones is battlefield awareness and taking advantage of cc abilities and insta-cast abilities to be as mobile as you can while still being useful.

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If the person you were shooting wasn't allowed to move, the BH rotations would be able to be done by a brain-dead person.

 

The challenge in playing a PvP merc is in finding a way to get through those rotations while also maintaining intelligent positioning on the battlefield with limited mobility. A large percentage of your rotation is filled with abilities that cast.

 

So yes, if you're being ignored as a Merc, it's very easy and effective to become a turret with tracer spam. But what separates the good Mercs from the bad ones is battlefield awareness and taking advantage of cc abilities and insta-cast abilities to be as mobile as you can while still being useful.

 

 

Vs a sniper, who has to remain in cover (and thus cant move with the enemy as freely) and is still making use of cast times/channels, and lets not forget...

 

All of their attacks can be defended/shielded (weapon damage) vs the very few of the BH which can be (you cant dodge tracer missile. You can dodge snipe).

 

Take snipe, its energy cost (vs the much smaller TM cost with talents), then apply defense, shield chance and shield absorb to the mix, and the discrepancy grows.

 

As far as having to move..all range classes have to do this. Sorcs channel lighting, snipers need to stick to cover and also cast, so I do not see how LOS or moving is some Merc unique balancing factor.

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