President and COO of HeroEngine blames Bioware for poor coding!

[Zarthorn]

Can you explain me why on such a small map like huttball we get lag and poor performance?

 

How is it different from instanced map rotation?

 

Because you are not on a single server housing your instance, you are still on the same server thus the server still feels the load of the thousands of other players, it's more noticable in PvP because of things like pallete loading and yes, unoptimised code.

 

The unoptimised code will get ironed out as time goes on, but it'll never be as smooth as an FPS for the simple and utter fact:

 

You are on a server housing thousands of players, not on a server housing 64 max at any given time.

[Zarthorn]

BF3 server is not 1 server rack per map. If it was so the costs of renting a server would be absolutely insane, not to mention there will be only oh so much servers you could rent. Each rack runs a number of virtual servers which, in turn, run that 1 map.

 

Again, is it a server housing thousands of players? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players and several static maps? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players, several static maps and several pvp instances? No

 

It is a server housing 64 players MAXIMUM, thus it won't have nowhere near the same stress load that an MMO does.

 

And just so you know, BF3 wasn't "spot on" at release either, plenty of players complained about stuttering framerates and other issues at release, ironed out with patches.

 

So once again, if you must use an analogy, compare it to another MMO and MMO engine and not an FPS with an FPS engine.

 

The differences are like Night and Day.

[djpravda]

Because you are not on a single server housing your instance, you are still on the same server thus the server still feels the load of the thousands of other players, it's more noticable in PvP because of things like pallete loading and yes, unoptimised code.

 

The unoptimised code will get ironed out as time goes on, but it'll never be as smooth as an FPS for the simple and utter fact:

 

You are on a server housing thousands of players, not on a server housing 64 max at any given time.

 

I hate to bring WoW to this discussion but why WoW's combat on bigger scale is so smooth comparing to SWTOR?

[DestyOwn]

Stop using your flawed comparison please, single map rotation that houses 64 players only per server rack vs multiple static zones + map instances of thousands of players at a time per server rack.

 

This is why they have things like closed/open beta for MMO's but don't tend to for FPS'es, because inhouse testing would be completely smooth since there would be no more than a hundred people on the same server.

 

Each server for an mmo houses litterally thousands of players....not 30, not 64....thousands.

 

As the line went in The Last Samurai...."Do you understand this number?"

 

 

Hmmm i rented a BF3 Server for 3 months, 64 PLAYERS , Running on a VM , running a rack that hosted 8VM, with 2 xenon CPU's.

 

And bf3 Had Public Alpha, Public Beta..

 

WOW Thousands of players? Let's See, a big part of them doing nothing in the fleet/cities. an another big part doing some quests. WHICH probably put aloooooooot of strain on the server.

 

Then comes the WZ's

 

Alot of people moving, alot of User inputs, alot of animations, alot of everything... 16 players , the engine can't even handle 16 players with AA enabled.

 

If it's hardware related, well apparently you need a better machine to run SWTOR on High than to run BF3 on Ultra Settings.

 

and BTW : WHERE did read that a single rack Host 1 SERVER.

 

Why would they need Big server Farms, IF 1 server rack would run a single server.

 

There is what 60 Server in NA..

 

This can easily fit in a few Racks.

Edited January 25, 2012 by DestyOwn

[ComeAndSee]

I hate to bring WoW to this discussion but why WoW's combat on bigger scale is so smooth comparing to SWTOR?

 

I think part of the poor FPS has to do with the fact that you can't disable player titles (i.e. Darth, Battlemaster, etc.) and guild names. It unnecessarily increases the amount of things being loaded on your screen. The only option you have is to turn them off completely.

 

The real "lag" in Ilum's mass PvP is the text being displayed on your screen every time you kill somebody. That and vehicles being loaded and quests being changed when they're destroyed because they have to be loaded.

 

WoW runs smoother because its designed to run on low-end rigs -- like P4 low end rigs.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[djpravda]

THey got hit hard on that blog so they decided to disable all comments lol

 

 

 

Neil says:

January 24, 2012 at 6:32 am

 

We’ve received a lot of comments to this article. They fall into two main categories:

 

1. It’s our fault, and

2. It’s not our fault.

 

It’s clear that there is a lot of passion around this issue! We’re going to refrain from allowing more comments playing the blame game here and let’s see how the game goes as time passes.

[Soulaufein]

Stop using your flawed comparison please, single map rotation that houses 64 players only per server rack vs multiple static zones + map instances of thousands of players at a time per server rack.

 

Im sorry for the ignorance, but do you also - besides the 50/60 € for the box - pay 13€ per month on BF 3 that may or may not be used for increased server capacity & performance?

 

Because I remember it quite clearly: when WoW launched with its BIG amounts of technical issues, at least we saw Blizzard actively recruiting and constant news of investment in server capacity and performance for the first 3 months.

 

Thus far, we have seen NOTHING from Bioware to indicate steps towards solving a blatant issue of say, very high end specs having 10 FPS in WZs or whenever theres more than 10 people in an area. This game has a lot of core techical problems, which is OK and more or less normal in MMO launches. What is not OK is the apparent lack of focus/serious commitement in dealing with it.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Soulaufein

[Zarthorn]

I hate to bring WoW to this discussion but why WoW's combat on bigger scale is so smooth comparing to SWTOR?

 

WoW was much much worse at release, they have had 7 years to optimise it.

 

There is a reason Hillsbrad was known as HillsLag, and the game still had tons of issues from framerate drops to zone crashes for several years.

 

No MMO I have ever played has ever had a perfect release, to join an mmo at release and go "OMG wai you no work, wai this crash, wai netcode not perfect" shows a lack of knowledge of the industry and it's history.

 

There is no truer saying than the old saying of "MMO's are a constant Beta and you are a paying tester" if you don't want that for you, then I suggest that MMO's are not the genre for you or come back in a couple of years when the code has been fully optimised and most of the bugs ironed out....

 

But by that point, the game economy will have drastically changed, every single PvP'er will be in massively better gear than you could ever dream of and you'll spend the next year or so playing "catch up"

 

This is the way the MMO industry has been since UO and I doubt for a very long time it'll ever change.

[Cosia]

Again, is it a server housing thousands of players? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players and several static maps? No

 

Is it a server housing thousands of players, several static maps and several pvp instances? No

 

It is a server housing 64 players MAXIMUM, thus it won't have nowhere near the same stress load that an MMO does.

 

And just so you know, BF3 wasn't "spot on" at release either, plenty of players complained about stuttering framerates and other issues at release, ironed out with patches.

 

So once again, if you must use an analogy, compare it to another MMO and MMO engine and not an FPS with an FPS engine.

 

The differences are like Night and Day.

 

I've played WAR and RIFT with more than 64 players fighting on screen with no lag what so ever. Granted the difference between MMO and FPS is big however the performance in SWTOR is still awful compared to MMOs that are older.

[Zarthorn]

Im sorry for the ignorance, but do you also - besides the 50/60 € for the box - pay 13€ per month on BF 3 that may or may not be used for increased server capacity & performance?

 

Because I remember it quite clearly: when WoW launched with its BIG amounts of technical issues, at least we saw Blizzard actively recruiting and constant news of investment in server capacity and performance for the first 3 months.

 

Thus far, we have seen NOTHING from Bioware to indicate steps towards solving a blatant issue of say, very high end specs having 10 FPS in WZs or whenever theres more than 10 people in an area. This game has a lot of core techical problems, which is OK and more or less normal in MMO launches. What is not OK is the apparent lack of focus/serious commitement in dealing with it.

 

Here is how I see things...

 

If they are not posting constantly on the forums, it's a very good sign that they are working constantly to get things done.

 

If they are posting constantly on the forums they are wasting time of which they could be using to get things done.

 

There does have to be a middleground reached between communication and being shut out in the dark though, every mmo company gets this wrong early on and either communicate too much (Rift, AoC) or not at all (WoW, WAR, SWG)

 

I also don't play BF3 because I don't really play FPS'es, however I do tend to keep knowledgeable about the goings on and keep myself informed on things, some might use that as an excuse to call me a troll, etc but again an FPS and MMO should never be compared especially on the issues of Framerate.

[Zarthorn]

I've played WAR and RIFT with more than 64 players fighting on screen with no lag what so ever. Granted the difference between MMO and FPS is big however the performance in SWTOR is still awful compared to MMOs that are older.

 

Did you play WAR during it's first year?

 

64 players in an RvR lake used to = server disco.

 

In it's second year it did get noticably better though and could go up to 100 v 100 before Disco'ing.

 

Again, it just takes time to sort these things.

[Darth_Philar]

I just wanted to throw in a little factoid for comparison since WoW was brought up:

 

I participated in a world PvP event on my WoW server last year. It was 40 Alliance versus between 60-70 Horde and the moment we started using our abilities the server lag spiked to over 3 minutes before it finally crashed and we had to wait about 30 minutes before it came back online.

 

MMO engines are really not designed to transmit the necessary data for large scale PvP as they are sending excessive amounts of player data that enriches the PvE experience but only serves to clog the pipes when PvP is active.

 

I really wish that they would just stop offering MMO PvP since their engines can't handle it and none of them really know how to implement it in a balanced format anyway.

[djpravda]

Did you play WAR during it's first year?

 

64 players in an RvR lake used to = server disco.

 

In it's second year it did get noticably better though and could go up to 100 v 100 before Disco'ing.

 

Again, it just takes time to sort these things.

 

Why everybody is making a TIME excuse for Bioware? This game was in a development since ... 2006- 2007? They had plenty of time to address these issues. There was BETA and same issues were pointed out to them by Masses, thou they still decided to release a game in a current stage.

 

If I want to make and sell burgers and compete with MacDonald's my burgers either would have to be as good as theirs or better and my prices should be lower. I hate fast food but its first example which came to my mind.

[Epicfael]

Here is how I see things...

 

If they are not posting constantly on the forums, it's a very good sign that they are working constantly to get things done.

 

If they are posting constantly on the forums they are wasting time of which they could be using to get things done.

 

There does have to be a middleground reached between communication and being shut out in the dark though, every mmo company gets this wrong early on and either communicate too much (Rift, AoC) or not at all (WoW, WAR, SWG)

 

I also don't play BF3 because I don't really play FPS'es, however I do tend to keep knowledgeable about the goings on and keep myself informed on things, some might use that as an excuse to call me a troll, etc but again an FPS and MMO should never be compared especially on the issues of Framerate.

 

Higher-ups posting updates on the forums does not mean they arent working on problems. A single update once a week in the announcement page would take ~10-15 minutes. Besides, there are likely a large number of people working collectively on the bugs, so 1 taking the time to post an update would help the community more than hurt, as you see it. They could even use their media department to post these updates so no time is wasted to begin with.

[xJeTsTaRx]

LOL i play the game just fine with the exception of illum where the backend simply cant handle it ATM.. No idea where some of this crap is coming from, the game is not as bad as you people make it seem. Note that i did not read all and every post, but after reading something along these lines "high end machines running 5fps, and anything past a 5v5 warzone is a lagfest" i figured its not worth it; I rarely lag in warzones, and i dont consider my computer to be a "High End Machine" even though 3 years ago it was, i still get 60fps with the exception of illum mass pvp.

 

I can only conclude theres user error happening somewhere along the lines ther, or massive massive trolls (which i wouldnt be surprised). Then again theres people out there who claim they have a "High End Machine" and take twice as long to load a League of Legends or StarCraft match, and i dont even have an ssd. Yes bioware could have done a better job, but no way in hell would i consider this terrible like some of you do. Perhaps those that do need to realize its 2012 and take a look at the new technology out there, Core 2 Duo is not considered High End anymore..

[Selixx]

Interesting.

 

"I am sure that BioWare had rooms full of engineers who customized the engine for their needs. That is normal for projects of that scale. Because of the way they chose to convey combat and the graphical style, they clearly had to highly tailor the renderer for their own needs. I don’t have much contact with their engineers any more (the last code drop they took from us was about 3 years ago) so I can’t really speak to how much of our rendering technology is left in SW:TOR but I honestly don’t think there would be much."

 

BW ****ed up

 

Yes, remove the context in which that statement was made.

 

On the other hand, from the videos we saw before release it looks like most of the tools and production process are still in place, and that’s what we focus on when we show people why HE is special.

 

I think the game is awesome and I am sure that BioWare will release patches that address the issues that people are reporting. They are a solid developer with an amazing track record for making great games that work well.

 

The dude says that Bioware did a good job, and will continue to fix problems with the engine. Doesn't seem like he is bad mouthing Bio at all. Reading comprehension is difficult, yo.

[Ashane]

Did you play WAR during it's first year?

 

64 players in an RvR lake used to = server disco.

 

In it's second year it did get noticably better though and could go up to 100 v 100 before Disco'ing.

 

Again, it just takes time to sort these things.

 

If Lineage 2 could have 300+, using the Unreal Engine 6 years ago, then I'm pretty sure we've advanced far enough along that 65 people shoudnt bring a server to a screeching halt.

 

Hell even Shadowbane managed more then 65-100 people, and that was what.. 9 years ago?

 

Just stop defending it, its horribly coded. WAR wasnt any better tbh.

[chungkuo]

Hey IT geniuses:

 

Stop arguing about scalability on a system you know zero about. You don't know what the back end is, the gear is, or really anything that would allow you to make even close to an informed statement on this, let alone an educated one.

 

Who cares who's fault it is? It doesn't change the fact that the engine is crap.

 

And stop apologizing for BioWare by saying "EA made them do it. BOOOO EA!" BioWare IS EA. They merged. EA isn't some outside entity coming into mom & pop BioWare with thumb screws and iron maidens to torture the poor developers. You don't think there weren't bonuses involved in hitting a target date? EVERYONE over there wanted this thing to ship at Christmas.

[kidbs]

Did you play WAR during it's first year?

 

64 players in an RvR lake used to = server disco.

 

In it's second year it did get noticably better though and could go up to 100 v 100 before Disco'ing.

 

Again, it just takes time to sort these things.

 

And SWTOR has had years to learn from past MMO experiences/mistakes. Especially considering some of the lead devs worked on WAR. You would think that they would know how to optimize large-scale battles by now.

[Selixx]

Why everybody is making a TIME excuse for Bioware? This game was in a development since ... 2006- 2007? They had plenty of time to address these issues. There was BETA and same issues were pointed out to them by Masses, thou they still decided to release a game in a current stage.

 

If I want to make and sell burgers and compete with MacDonald's my burgers either would have to be as good as theirs or better and my prices should be lower. I hate fast food but its first example which came to my mind.

 

Lol @ your analogy, which btw has no connection whatsoever to the gaming industry. It doesn't take you days of programming to fix a problem with your burger. You grab two buns, grill a patty rq, slap some extras on it, and sell it. You don't need to spend days to fix the smallest problems.

 

People seem to think this game should have been released with all the features of WoW, and no glitches/bugs. Do you realize, when contructing a game, you first have to optimize the engine, program new features into the engine, and then begin development (where even the grass texture can take days to make).

 

I hope you all realize that WoW has had a massive company behind it, and has had 15 years of programming and optimizations (including the actual pre-release development). SWTOR has 5 years of programming and development behind it. New technology doesn't actually make the game industry perform that much faster...so they should be 10 years behind in features (which they are). Stop making stupid analogies about the gaming industry, you clearly have no idea how it works.

[bklynfinest]

I may not have a Masters in IT or Comp Sci (as much as it pains me not to fix peoples' Outlook for a living) but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when a 8v8 WZ is giving you sub optimal FPS and anything larger than that becomes a slideshow (ie Ilum) then something is deffinitely wrong. Engine, network, coding, who gives a F - just fix it. The only way BW would get any slack over this if it was the first MMO ever released but unofrtunetly it's not. This should have been priority before anything else. There's still no official response either regarding this issue.

[Ntranced]

Hell even Shadowbane managed more then 65-100 people, and that was what.. 9 years ago?

 

Just stop defending it, its horribly coded. WAR wasnt any better tbh.

 

interestingly enough thats what I said on teamspeak the first time we had a 32v32 lag fest in Illum - "holy **** it's worst than WAR!". At least in WAR at the end the keeps with 120 people in it were still dreadful but at least most of the open world stuff was playable assuming you had everything turned down.

 

I think the most interesting point is that BW didn't take a code drop of the engine for 3 years. That is a LONG time in game development, hell high end machines 3 years ago are a shadow of what is around now.

 

I disagree about the FPS comparisons as well, Ilum is its own planet there is simply no reason for not giving that hardware the specs and bandwidth it requires.

[Khabarach]

If Lineage 2 could have 300+, using the Unreal Engine 6 years ago, then I'm pretty sure we've advanced far enough along that 65 people shoudnt bring a server to a screeching halt.

Do you have any actual evidence that it brings the server to a screeching halt? From what I've seen the server handles it fine. Edited January 25, 2012 by Khabarach

[Orangerascal]

Whether the engine can do it or not is irrelevant.

 

Their competitor's engine can: Aion, WoW, And even rift can handle 100's of people in a zone. And I'm pretty GW2 will handle it too.

[Semitote]

Whoa, Neil Patrick Harris is the president and COO of HeroEngine?