Biochem is the only crafting skill worth having.

[Rothnang]

Since I started playing the game I have steadily been working on the artifice skill on my Consular. I had a lot of fun with the crafting, but as I become more familiar with the game it suddenly hit me, all the effort I put into leveling this skill was completely wasted.

 

Why is that? Biochem, that's why.

 

A short explanation for those who don't know this: The purple level of Biochem Stims and Medkits never deplete, you can use them over and over, however, you cannot use them at all unless you have the Biochem skill. This essentially means that if you have Biochem you always have the benefit of stims and medkits without having to buy them, carrying large stacks of them and such inconveniences. Every time you learn how to make better stims and medpacks you can work your way up to a purple version and enjoy the benefit of infinite stims and medpacks for the entire game.

 

Why is that way better than any other crafting skill?

 

Simple, because none of the other crafting skills produce anything even remotely as useful that's exclusive to them. All the best gear in the game is available through PvP and raiding, not through crafting, so it's not a big advantage there. All the gear you can craft throughout leveling up is usually not much better than the gear you find anyways, and certainly never better than the bonus you get from stims. Lastly, anyone with Biochem can still have gear that's just as good as yours, and it's a one time expense for them, but for you enjoying the same benefit of stims and medpacks as them requires constantly replenishing your supply.

 

This situation is completely ridiculous. Crafting in this game is broken.

 

We need official word on this from Bioware, so that we know whether we should cut out losses and switch to Biochem, or if we can expect some measure to rectify this situation in the near future...

[Rothnang]

Am I stating something that's so obvious that it bears no response or have I somehow become so wrong that the flamers got lockjaw?

[pizzarrhea]

Games been out for a little over a month, man. It's obviously going to be addressed.

[Celebrus]

Am I stating something that's so obvious that it bears no response or have I somehow become so wrong that the flamers got lockjaw?

 

 

It's not so much that it isn't worth noticing, it's the fact that this poor horse has been kicked so many times and the game has only been out for a month, they will probably adjust some of the other trade skills, and Biochem has already had one nerf already.

[Bulwyf]

Am I stating something that's so obvious that it bears no response or have I somehow become so wrong that the flamers got lockjaw?

 

No, it is so obvious that there really is nothing left to say about it. Not that you were wrong for pointing this out, mind you, just that there is no argument. Biochem is hands down the only crafting skill worth having as everything else is easily replaced and there are no unique advantages for the specific crafter for having them to that level.

[ManOSteal]

you know why biochem gets a reusable stim, adreanal, and med pack. It's so I can sell and/or give med packs to other people that need them without having to sacrifice the personal utility of having a med pack. Why should I as a biochem spend all of my time and money on crafting stims, adreanals, and med packs to have to give them all away to the other party members and not have the ability to always have the ones I need. Basically if biochems don't have reusable items everyone who isn't biochem can say goodbye to getting any items because we would be spending our resources on getting the reusable we want/need and would have no time to craft items for others....low and behold everyone still rolls biochem for min maxing, and then they complain that they never have anything to sell on the market because they only have the resources to create the items they need.

 

also for anyone looking to min max taking the consumables producer is pretty much always your best answer.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ManOSteal

[Contristo]

Agreed (obviously)...like 90% of the swtor community. However, I expected this imbalance to be addressed by now. Bioware....at least let us know if its going to be balanced with other crafting skills because I am on the verge of dropping Artifice for Biochem...I just don't want to take up this new skill only to find it's been over-nerfed. As mentioned many times before in previous posts - its the other crafting skills that need to be boosted to match Biochem's top tier rewards.

[GweedoTOR]

Items that require the actual crewskill to use suck. I can see a couple of prestige items for the effort... but the sheer amount of BOP crewskill items in this game is silly.

 

Crewskills should be about accomplishment and resale, not being pidgeon holed into doing biochem to stay alive as a tank because the best items are that skill only. Im not even talking about profitability of the skills, just power distribution at this point.

 

Also, whats with random items that really would be awesome to be able to resell, but cant? Whats the point of Cyber getting hoverbikes and speeder designs I can only make 1 of for myself?

 

Crewskills need alot of looking at, and unlike most of the people on these forums, I strongly disagree with adding more BOP to other skills to balance vs Biochem. BOP and skill required items needs removed from player made items, period. Its the only way to level the playing field.

Edited January 25, 2012 by GweedoTOR

[Sun-Runner]

Your proposal is likely to be implemented. Medpacs, stims and adrenals that are currently re-usable are probably going to be rendered consumable. (Eventually.) This will result in a mass abandonment of Biochem in favor of ... not having a crafting skill at all.

 

The other crafting skills are that bad.

[oredith]

Am I stating something that's so obvious that it bears no response or have I somehow become so wrong that the flamers got lockjaw?

here's my version of the official response:

 

due to unanimous complaint about the unfairness of crafting, we have decided to remove all crafting skills, and replace all toons with previous crafting skills, with equal level biochem skills. it saves us a lot of time on trying to figure out how to make crafting work. thank you for your continued subscription.

Edited January 25, 2012 by oredith

[Rothnang]

Sorry, I only started playing about a week ago, should have figured that this was a well known fact already.

 

And yea, having a crafting skill that makes consumables that everyone needs to buy to be viable in high level play is a crappy idea to begin with. No matter how you slice it, it's just an added layer of grind that cuts people off from enjoying the actual content.

[Sun-Runner]

Sorry, I only started playing about a week ago, should have figured that this was a well known fact already.

 

And yea, having a crafting skill that makes consumables that everyone needs to buy to be viable in high level play is a crappy idea to begin with. No matter how you slice it, it's just an added layer of grind that cuts people off from enjoying the actual content.

 

Grind and credit-sinks are the name of the game. This, also, is a well known fact.

 

We get some hilarious lines out of it though.

[MasterBlasterO]

Hmm where have I seen this thread before? Maybe the last 300 weren't enough.

[GnatB]

Actually, I sort of have to disagree.

 

*if* the point of a tradeskill is to make money and/or have other people use the stuff you made for pride/RP reasons, then the fact that everybody and his brother is going biochem is causing biochem to NOT be worth having, whereas (most of?) the other tradeskills are.

 

Of all the crew skills I've dabbled in, so far biochem is far and away the least profitable. Most likely because everybody simply makes their own stuff. (I've *heard* there's profit to be made on high end implants, but as more and more people high end finish powerleveling their way to high biochem, I doubt that'll last)

 

And, of course, that IS the point of tradeskills. Trade skills should not be combat skills. Currently, Biochem is a combat skill not a trade skill.

 

as for everybody giving up tradeskills entirely if the reuseables get removed? Doubt it. Hopefully the vast majority will though, meaning there will actually be a market for those who do to make a decent profit at it in all the skills, not just the non biochem ones.

 

('course, it wouldn't hurt to boost up the quality of the goods all the tradeskills can make to sell to make them profitable "end game" as well)

[Sun-Runner]

*if* the point of a tradeskill is to make money and/or have other people use the stuff you made for pride/RP reasons

This isn't the point of a tradeskill. This is a themepark MMO; this is not a sandbox MMO.

 

The point of a tradeskill is: (in order of importance)

1. Provide an otherwise unattainable benefit to the tradeskiller.
   
2. Provide both cheaper and easier access to tradeskill goods to the tradeskiller's alternate characters, to the tradeskiller's friends and to the tradeskiller's guild.
   
3. Provide a source of income by selling crafted good to those disinterested in investing in a tradeskill so as to cover incidental tradeskill costs.
   
4. Provide a source of income by selling excess tradeskill materials to other tradeskillers who are either unable or unwilling to gather their own materials so as to cover incidental tradeskill costs.
   

 

Biochem successfully does this. The other tradeskills do not. Thereby ...

Edited January 25, 2012 by Sun-Runner

[DiLune]

I would also add, tradeskills provide the player the feeling of doing something useful with their level 50, whether or not they are doing Operations. There is a perception (which I agree with) that tradeskills at level 50 are useless because no one wants what you can make, and you can't make anything for yourself that you want.

[Rothnang]

Grind and credit-sinks are the name of the game. This, also, is a well known fact.

 

Forcing me to buy over and over and over from certain players while there is nothing they have to buy over and over and over from me is not a credit sink, it's just crappy design and an imbalanced system.

[RSLeMire]

W/E cybertech is win. Neverending nades... comeon.

[Sun-Runner]

Forcing me to buy over and over and over from certain players while there is nothing they have to buy over and over and over from me is not a credit sink, it's just crappy design and an imbalanced system.

 

I'd argue that crafting itself is a credit-sink, that the current crafting system is a crappy design and that the current crafting system is an imbalanced system.

[Sun-Runner]

W/E cybertech is win. Neverending nades... comeon.

 

A single grenade every five minutes isn't "win".

[infinitygreen]

simple solution but not the best is just give everyone biochem as a fourth crewskill, but instead of adrenals it would only be medpacs and there could be another crewskill that gives adrenals and stims but they wouldnt be reuseable but have long durations and persist through death.

[oredith]

simple solution but not the best is just give everyone biochem as a fourth crewskill, but instead of adrenals it would only be medpacs and there could be another crewskill that gives adrenals and stims but they wouldnt be reuseable but have long durations and persist through death.

 

you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

 

people seem to hate comparisons between SWTOR and WOW, but WOW went through the whole trade balancing already, and they've normalized the perks by simply adding a passive perk to other skills.

 

that'll address the perks at least, but it still leaves the schematic imbalance in game (the fact that armstech doesn't have ANY). but that's an easier fix.. make some up and start adding them to FP / OP loot table.

[GnatB]

This isn't the point of a tradeskill. This is a themepark MMO; this is not a sandbox MMO.

 

The point of a tradeskill is: (in order of importance)

1. Provide an otherwise unattainable benefit to the tradeskiller.
   
2. Provide both cheaper and easier access to tradeskill goods to the tradeskiller's alternate characters, to the tradeskiller's friends and to the tradeskiller's guild.
   
3. Provide a source of income by selling crafted good to those disinterested in investing in a tradeskill so as to cover incidental tradeskill costs.
   
4. Provide a source of income by selling excess tradeskill materials to other tradeskillers who are either unable or unwilling to gather their own materials so as to cover incidental tradeskill costs.
   

 

Biochem successfully does this. The other tradeskills do not. Thereby ...

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I find your list to almost completely inverted, regardless of the type of MMO in question, with your primary point entirely incorrect. I don't see how "themepark" or "sandbox" affect this.

 

However, I will also say that I find WoW's tradeskills to be just about the most completely fubar I've ever seen in a game. So anything WoW does in this regard is probably something you shouldn't do. (Now, EQ and EQ2? At least up until I left, they seemed to have the right idea)

Edited January 25, 2012 by GnatB

[DiLune]

you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

 

people seem to hate comparisons between SWTOR and WOW, but WOW went through the whole trade balancing already, and they've normalized the perks by simply adding a passive perk to other skills.

 

that'll address the perks at least, but it still leaves the schematic imbalance in game (the fact that armstech doesn't have ANY). but that's an easier fix.. make some up and start adding them to FP / OP loot table.

 

While it is easy to say "WoW has been out a while, why didn't SWTOR learn from their mistakes" it is good perspective to remember that the balancing didn't happen until BC.

 

For more perspective, the current state of the crew skills is based off of a very, very late beta change. Their decision regarding orange gear (which wasn't orange at all at that point) is what killed things for Armormech/Synthweaving.