Can you be a successful tank and be a Clicker?

[Toogeloo]

I don't play PC games other than MMOs, and I don't buy perpherals or other things to make my few PC experiences easier.

 

I have been playing MMOs since EQ1, over 12 years of MMO experience. I have been a clicker the entire time. I have a two button mouse and a 15 dollar keyboard. I place skills on my bars so that I know what I need and where it is when I need it. I have only keybound two types of abilities in my entire time playing MMOs, Cleanses and Interrupts, because they carry far more weight to be reactive. And I wouldn't really say I keybind them, rather I key them to skillbars at #2 and #3 on the keyboard (so that I can just reach with my middle finger up from W).

 

I move forward with W, backwards with D. I turn the camera by holding my right mouse button and moving the mouse around, and Strafe by holding right mouse and using A and D.

 

 

 

I have been main tank in WoW as a Paladin and a Death Knight. I have been a Main Tank in Rift as a Cleric, Warrior, and Rogue.

 

I have even main tanked here in Star Wars as a Juggernaut.

 

 

 

 

I told someone in my guild that I am a Clicker last night, and as a result, the Raid Leaders have asked me to no longer tank. I don't even know if they want me to respec DPS, we haven't talked that much about it yet, but as of right now, they have a zero tolerance policy for Clickers since we apparently have lower awareness and reaction speed.

 

I have tried hotkeying once, and it actually reduced my effectiveness because I kept forgetting which key was combined to Shift and Ctrl and the numbers they were on. So I will not attempt to try and reteach my playstyle again and will continue to click.

 

 

Any successful Clicker tanks out there want to make me feel better and let me know that we aren't as bad as my Raid Leader suggests >_>?

[Deekjay]

I'm a tank clicker and have had no problems with it. I was the main tank in WoW for my guild from BC to the end of wrath and we cleared almost all content. I am currently a 50 shadow tank and having no problem. As long as you know which skills are appropriate for which circumstance you should be fine. This isn't starcraft.

[PugKing]

As long as the EQ1 boobie taunt remains unearthed...

[Lord_Galadrind]

I have been playing MMOs since EQ1, over 12 years of MMO experience.

Can you still be a sucessful tank & still be a clicker ?

havn't you just answered your own question ? 12 years of play throughout various MMO's in various tanking classes in your mind you have been sucessful .

 

After this duration you 'should' know what works for you & what dosn't , although it is clearly justification & rather vindication of your playsyle that you seek, when you already know full well the answer..... Clicking although viable, is not the most optimal method of character control & playstyle for anyone that is truely interested in getting the most out of their play.

 

I have been main tank in WoW as a Paladin and a Death Knight. I have been a Main Tank in Rift as a Cleric, Warrior, and Rogue.

 

I have even main tanked here in Star Wars as a Juggernaut.

 

The 'politically' correct term for past few years has been co-tank

 

 

 

Any successful Clicker tanks out there want to make me feel better and let me know that we aren't as bad as my Raid Leader suggests >_>?

 

I am afraid I cannot give you the answer you are fishing for to take back to your RL.

Having to physically shift a mouse pointer over a button , look down, align , execute for each action whilst taking your concentration from field of view to an action bar will *always* be slower & a sub-optimal playstyle . Compared to keeping your eyes and full concentration directly on the action , allowing memory-muscle to act out via key-binds

[Kallti]

You *can* be successful, I guess... but someone who key binds correctly will always be better/faster.

[Pinguaq]

Sounds like part of the key to being successful is to follow a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Let people judge you on how you play rather that how they presume you will play being a clicker.

 

I use to click, and thought I was pretty good, until a friend convinced me to keybind and stick with it for a few days. This was years ago and I could never imagine going back. Once you have the muscle memory built up, and know where everything is, I feel I'm able to react much quicker.

 

And as a healer in SWTOR, party member targeting keybound for the 4 mans makes things more straight forward for me.

 

I use a Nostramos with a couple keys set to CTRL, and Shift which allows that hand to do most everything while my mouse is reserved for moving including forward & strafing. The only abilities I click are the out-of-combat ones.

[Mikkeos]

Keybinding is waaaaay faster than clicking.

Compare someone using all the lovely shortcuts when creating documents with someone clicking and scrolling through menu bars.

 

Then again, you do not have a global cooldown on a word document or tax sheet.

[XtremJedi]

Aye, I'm sure it's possible to play any kind of role as a clicker, including tank. But if you spend a bit of time getting used to using keybinds, I'm sure that you'll find it better once you get used to it.

 

There's a physiological reason for it too... it's not just what people say. Muscle memory is where your muscles learn certain movements that can be executed without attention. Ballistic motions - like single uncontrolled 'throws' - are set from the beginning of the movement and require no attention and very little control during the movement.

 

Try closing your eyes and moving your finger very fast to touch your nose. The first time will usually be a bit off or slightly jerky... but after that you'll land very precisely every time and even be able to speed up. That's what you'll do when you jump to hot-keys... it takes a little while to learn but once you have, it'll happen without thought.

 

Mouse movement is controlled and not ballistic, and as a result requires hand-eye co-ordination and much more attention. There tends to be an acceleration phase at the beginning of the movement, followed by a deceleration phase that's monitored and adjusted by the eye watching the cursor. As a result, it will always be less efficient and need more attention than 'finger jumping'.

 

Here's what I'd suggest:

 

• Rest your main for a week or two.
  
• Start a new character - choose a ranged option at first.
  
• Set Right Mouse held down to turn
  
• Set Right and Left Mouse held down together to move forward and turn (this is the default, so just use reset on the prefs for that character).
  

 

With this set-up you can do most of your movement with the mouse, so your left hand isn't so involved with movement and hitting shortcuts at the same time.

 

Work with this setup as you level your character. Since you start with only a few abilities and gradually increase - you'll have the time for your hands to learn their new jobs. Stick to using just the one bar at the beginning, from position 1 through 8. You will find yourself hitting the wrong abilities for a while, but within a fairly short time, you'll find that your hand jumps to just the right spot.#

 

As you get more abilities, set the lower bar prefs for Shift-1 through Shift-8 - though you'll primarily use only shift1-5.

 

Give it a good try up to at least level 15 or 16 and you'll find that you're beginning to master it and you'll probably recognise certain overall improvements. Can't really hurt to try, now can it?

 

X

[sanctified]

I use the two bottom quick slots and the left side vertical bar for my abilities. For my hot keys, I put buffs and health packs and the like on the bottom, which I tend to click. For active ability Hot keys, I use the '~' key all the way down the line to the backspace key, with all the numbers in between, and my F5 through F9 for situational skills or defensive cooldowns. Like the Op, I turn by holding the right side mouse button, and moving the mouse. As far as I know, everyone does that. It's faster than keyboard turning.

 

Anyway, don't buy into that stuff about all binds making you the best or whatever. What matters is knowing where everything is on your layout and using it quickly. I haven't met a lot of clicker tanks, but the ones who've mentioned it to me in casual conversation have surprised me because they're pretty good. If you're a good tank, and you've genuinely been benched over something like this, then that's dumb. People will look for any excuse to look down on anyone else.

Edited January 25, 2012 by sanctified

[Windkull]

I main tank and have 1-6, Shift 1-6 and alt 1-6 bound to my abilities, along with q a ` t r and a few others, but even then, I find that there are some things I prefer to click... I click health packs, adrenals, relics etc all in a row down the right side, and sometimes I click deflection if I am doing something else with the left hand. I've found that playing MMOs rebinding movement to esdf makes for a much easier experience in terms of key binds and I recommend you trying it.

 

In a game like this one, with no autoattack, I can't see how you can get by purely clicking while moving with the mouse but if you can, more power to you. I think the worry is threat not anything else, as threat generation in this game reall does require tight rotations etc, and a lot of fights you have to throw in a ranged move while moving around to keep up the dps as a tank.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Any successful Clicker tanks out there want to make me feel better and let me know that we aren't as bad as my Raid Leader suggests >_>?

 

There are many downsides to clicking:

1. your eyes are glued to the parts of your screen where your quickslots are instead of watching the action
   
2. you lose the ability to use the mouse for lots of other great things, such as character turning, camera turning to see what's going on around you, selecting a particular target, e.g. that add that is smacking your healer in the face, etc
   
3. your reaction time is going to be slower than someone who uses hotkeys. It's the same reason why hitting shortcuts / hotkeys in applications is faster than having to click on a button to do the same thing, e.g. Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V for copy and paste
   

 

The #3 point applies even moreso in a game like SWTOR, where there are literally dozens of abilities you need to hotkey, you are going to run into issues traversing the screen to get to the ability that you need to hit for a particular situation

 

It's not that you can't be a solid player as a clicker. You can. But you're unnecessarily handicapping yourself.

 

I wrote a Guide explaining the benefits of proper keybinding, how to approach using keybinds, and how to learn new keybinds:

http://taugrim.com/2011/04/07/guide-to-strafing-movement-and-keybindings/

 

If you go through the learning curve of learning to use keybinds instead of click, you will be very thankful you did in the long run.

 

And I saw this as someone who doesn't just PVP. I was a guild main tank for WoW raiding and other games.

 

Having keybinds allows you to strafe properly, which is hugely valuable when needing to move a boss / adds while retaining your frontal facing for block/parry. Granted AFAIK Shield in SWTOR is omni-directional, but you should get used to proper movement for tanking in other games too.

 

I don't play PC games other than MMOs, and I don't buy perpherals or other things to make my few PC experiences easier.

 

I have a two button mouse and a 15 dollar keyboard.

 

Same here.

 

One of the most common comments that people make in my TwitchTV channel is something along the lines of "he's doing that without a Naga?!!?"

 

I have only keybound two types of abilities in my entire time playing MMOs, Cleanses and Interrupts, because they carry far more weight to be reactive. And I wouldn't really say I keybind them, rather I key them to skillbars at #2 and #3 on the keyboard (so that I can just reach with my middle finger up from W).

 

You make the argument for why you should be keybinding. Reaction time.

 

I'm also going to guess that you left some of the default keybinds as-is, and as I wrote in my Guide, the default keybinds in every MMORPG are simply wrong for enabling skillful play.

 

Anyway, go read the Guide and think about it.

 

It's worth making the switch in the long run. I've had dozens of former clickers message me about how switching dramatically improved their gameplay.

Edited January 25, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[jgreer]

If your playing a Guardian your options are limited.

 

1. Develop the dexterity of a professional pianist

2. Buy a naga

3. Click at least some of your abilities

 

Focus on binding your most frequently used abilities as well as those critical to timing (ie. Interrupt, Taunts, etc.). If you are a tank and you have to click target a mob, then click your taunt, then yes, you are probably holding back your team.

[Pokupo]

I currently have a 34 PT and I pretty much have every skill that I could possibly use in PvP bound to something, the only skills that I may actually click on are maybe my Grenades, and somtimes Stim Packs.

 

The only time that I generally resort to click tanking is when I am on a Boss that is Tank n Spank and does not have adds or require movement. Just button Mashing, gives my fingers a rest.

 

But I think to get really good at it you need to PvP for the most part, People are alot quicker and more unpredictable than a Computer Controlled mob.

 

Also I have found, because in every mmo I play I roll Tanks, to keep keys like Charge, Taunt, Bubbles, Pull etc... bound to the same keys. That way you are not staring down at your keys wondering why you start dancing while the Healer is getting killed.

[grandmasterub]

I would disagree with keybinding being superior. Main reason... GCD

 

For those of us who do click, since we are used to it, 1.5sec is more than enough time to react. I click, I have no down time, I manually target (or try to, character models suck in swtor), I dont miss interupts, taunts or CDs. I constantly pan the camera to note where mobs are, where lasers are flying etc...

 

Click vs keybind is a preference. If OP has been clicking for 12 years Id be willing to bet he is as profficient, or more pfoficient than most keybinders.

 

Healing on the other hand necesitates keybinding....

 

@OP its too bad your raid leaders have that elitist mentality. Youre probably better off without them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by grandmasterub

[Windkull]

I guess if you click everything with a GCD and bind everything thats not on GCD it works ok... Not so hot for PVP and positioning though

[taugrimtaugrim]

Click vs keybind is a preference. If OP has been clicking for 12 years Id be willing to bet he is as profficient, or more pfoficient than most keybinders

 

It's not just about activating abilities.

 

Keybinding allows you to use your your mouse for movement, and this facilitates strafing and fluid movement. This is something most clickers don't realize. If you are clicking you can't use your mouse to character turn and you are stuck with keyboard turning, which is horrifically slow for getting a target into your field of vision.

Edited January 27, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Jahor]

Tanking by clicking is absolut fine.

 

As Jedi guardian you have 1 anytime and 1 short time energy generators. Then you get 1 (2 with cleave) energy waster. And 2 defens pushers which you want as often as posible.

Key: skill

1: anytime energy gen

2: short cooldown energy gen

3+4: defens pusher

q: energy waster singel target

e: energy waster cleave

 

All other abilitys are on 15+ second timer wich can be activated by mouse without problems!

 

You might bind Force Push and Force Jump to R and F or use this two keys for taunt+aoe taunt to use them on mobs which run to your healers (I don't care about mobs which run to DDs. It's their own problem when they are bad anough to pull aggro).

 

Short: use the low cooldown anytimer and some emergencys with key bindings. Anythink else is fine when used by clicking .

 

PS: later on you will not use the energy waster anymore as you need a full energy bar to pump out your 15+ second combos.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jahor

[magicaldork]

I am a 50/50 clicker.

1-6 I use the keyboard. right bar I use the mouse to click.

Other skills 6 to the end I use whichever is most convenient at the time.

I watched videos online of people and see lots of red error messages (skill not ready, etc.) and that would drive me nuts.

 

If you click and it works keep clicking in my book.

Stay safe out there.

[Nitro_nik]

You *can* be successful, I guess... but someone who key binds correctly will always be better/faster.

 

I'm left handed, played every MMO under the sun, and i use the arrow keys for movement. This limits the amount of keys available to keybind around them.

 

To say you have to keybinded to be better is rubbish, it doesn't trump pure skill.

 

Okay i agree it can and i say can loosely, but all the skills you need are close to others so maybe you lose half a second? Come on half a sec is nothing.

 

If you really do screw up that bad, practice.

 

But to say you have to be all keybound to be an amazing tank, I disagree with. I totally agree with Grandmasterub. GCD was put in place for one of these reasons.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Nitro_nik

[taugrimtaugrim]

But to say you have to be all keybound to be an amazing tank, I disagree with. I totally agree with Grandmasterub. GCD was put in place for one of these reasons.

 

No one is saying you can't tank as a clicker.

 

Of course you can.

 

But understand that there is zero mechanical advantage to being a clicker.

 

I saw this as a middle-aged guy who after years went after a heavy keybinding route, and it has made a huge difference in gameplay.

Edited January 27, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Onostoolan]

Must say i felt bad when I read your post. Pretty harsh for you to be removed from duty if they didn't have a problem with your actual tanking before you mentioned the clicking thing.

 

Anyway, I used to be a clicker... In another un-namable mmo ... I managed just fine to be honest, reaction speed was ok, never had any huge problems...

 

However... I've invested in a logitech g700 and Microsoft sidewinder keyboard .... I've keybound all my abilities to mouse buttons now and set up my "oh sith" buttons to shortcut keys on the keyboard.... I've got to say... SO much better. It's a bit of a learning curve, and I wouldn't recommend trying to tank with a new set up from day one... But if you go out with a couple of mates and just suss out your rotations, try to hold agro etc... Or start with a new char and use keybinds all the way... Trust me it's worth the time

 

Huge improvement... And will seriously help you in pvp too!

[grandmasterub]

It's not just about activating abilities.

 

Keybinding allows you to use your your mouse for movement, and this facilitates strafing and fluid movement. This is something most clickers don't realize. If you are clicking you can't use your mouse to character turn and you are stuck with keyboard turning, which is horrifically slow for getting a target into your field of vision.

 

Ive watched your vids and read your blogs and in my estimate I perform melee strafing and turning jist as well as you.

 

I use the WASD-QE for movement and camera panning with my mouse.

[XtremJedi]

I think his point is more, that you can't use mouse for turning and camera angle and hit abilities at the same time. Keyboard turning is by its nature slower and so makes you less responsive.

 

Certainly, when I tank as a melee tank, I move from mob to mob and as I'm moving I'm hitting abilities. So I might be running toward a mob that's closed on the healer, I'll hit taunt from the distance, hit blade storm as I'm closing and then as I arrive in range, I'll be hitting focus building attacks before stopping.

 

If you're turning with your mouse and clicking your abilities, then you cannot do that as efficiently.

 

Or even a simpler example: If I am in melee with a couple of mobs and notice that my healer's health is dropping, I can use left mouse to turn my camera to see what's going on, while still hitting abilities with my left hand fingers. I can see the ranged mob that's dropped down on rockets, I can turn myself to face him - while still executing abilities on the mobs I'm in melee with - and then hit the Taunt button at the same time as I start moving toward the new target..

 

If you try to reproduce that with clicking... then turning your camera angle takes your mouse away from the shortcut bars and you can't be clicking abilities as you move and change camera angle... then your mouse has to return to the shortcut bars. If you see the ranged mob that's dropped down, then you have to move away from your shortcut bar, turn your character, run to range of the mob, stop, move mouse back to shortcut bar and then hit an ability.

 

I'm sure that there are ways to optimise mouse clicking - and I'm sure it's possible to be a perfectly proficient clicking tank. You'll need to be excellent in all of the other areas of skill in order to do so... But I'm also pretty much certain, that if you move over to using mouse to move and keybinds to activate abilities - you'll be better still.

 

X

Edited January 27, 2012 by XtremJedi

[Subparhero]

You got fired just because you're a clicker?? There wasnt even an issue with your tanking until you mentioned that you click?

 

That is completely ridiculous!! You are better off without those people, seriously.

Unbelievable.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I think his point is more, that you can't use mouse for turning and camera angle and hit abilities at the same time. Keyboard turning is by its nature slower and so makes you less responsive.

 

^

 

This guy gets it.

Edited January 28, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim