Do Warzones have to have gear stats?

[Malleki]

It would be nice if BW would get rid of the stat and make PVP based on skill alone. Unfortunately, this will not happen as there are too many people that will complain that they should be "rewarded" for their time investment. As it stands now, the more balanced matched can be found in the 10-49 bracket.

 

The thing is, you can reward people without making them stronger. Alot of people like to flaunt or show off. Its actually pretty natural for people to want to do, there are many ways to allow for it without making one player dramatically stronger.

They add to the variety of player characters and stop everyone looking like clones while at the same time rewarding people for playing the part of the game they enjoy. (instead of making it compulsory to compete)

 

It's nice to see people on both sides of the fence about this really, but I just don't see how a PvP gear progression can work without severely beating down the new players you are trying to get to join and enjoy the game. Many games have suffered and failed because the newer players get utterly demolished by those who have been playing months, yet it's completely unneccesary.

[Rhyveth]

I respectfully disagree. If they removed the ability to improve your gear through PvP I would only PvP once in a blue moon, about the same as I play FPS games. This is an MMO, not an FPS. Character improvement, including gear progression/specialization is part of what I like about MMOs, that and of course the social aspect. If you want to normalize all gear, then why not normalize everything including damage abilities, CC, etc. That way it is a completely balanced skill only game. Of course latency, computer hardware, etc. would still have an effect on play.

 

And no, I don't play 24/7 I'm a professional, work full time and have other hobbies so I don't even have a level 50 yet.

 

League of Legends is a FTP game and I would imagine that many people only play occasionally so it makes sense to normalize since many would not be willing to invest any significant amount of time in improving their character.

 

I would venture a guess, from talking to my son and some other avid PvP'ers (anecdotal evidence I know), that many of us, including myself, would simply quit playing if gear progression and specialization were taken out of the equation. I can buy a console game or FPS for my PC if that is what I'm looking for.

 

Not sure you understand what it will be like when you hit 50 and try to pvp. There are already quite a few battlemaster groups running. In a month the warzones will be saturated and you WILL get destroyed by anyone in full gear. Are you willing to spend two months losing non stop, getting chain stunned and annihilated by higher gear players? A brand new ungeared 50 is arguably less useful to a warzone team than a lvl 10 in the lower bracket.

 

Still your point is taken, but I think the majority of people would prefer that pvp be an even playing field without any artificial advantages or disadvantages based on time played.

[Erasimus]

The better question is: why do we not have a choice of a Warzone concept which works for "casual" pvp players?

 

 

Geargrind in PVP in Warzones isn't exactly the kind of Warzone i would want to design if they should appeal the average gamer.

 

I would think that once rated WZs are available regular WZs will most likely become primarily casual PvP'ers and those looking to build the gear/skills to do rated WZs. If you are on a PvE server I wouldn't imagine that the hardcore PvP population would be very high. If you are on a PvP server it should be because PvP is a major focus for you.

 

I do both, and I'm not great at either. I did both in WoW raided for 7 years and casual PvP'd for about the same time. Even with my over 75k kills on my main in WoW I was still casual. I didn't mind working for the gear to be competitive in either Raiding or PvP. Improving my character through gear/content progression in both PvP and PvE is one of the attractions of an MMO for me.

[Dogfatherxx]

The thing is, you can reward people without making them stronger. Alot of people like to flaunt or show off. Its actually pretty natural for people to want to do, there are many ways to allow for it without making one player dramatically stronger.

They add to the variety of player characters and stop everyone looking like clones while at the same time rewarding people for playing the part of the game they enjoy. (instead of making it compulsory to compete)

 

It's nice to see people on both sides of the fence about this really, but I just don't see how a PvP gear progression can work without severely beating down the new players you are trying to get to join and enjoy the game. Many games have suffered and failed because the newer players get utterly demolished by those who have been playing months, yet it's completely unneccesary.

 

Donlt get me wrong. I agree that there should be no PVP stat and I would much rather have an even playing field fo everyone. I just think that BW feels the need to be like the other games (WoW, Rift, etc) and they do not have the courage to do something different because it will alienate certain types of players. What BW fails to realize that most good PVPers would rather have a more skill based system that have one that promotes relying on their gear as a crutch. I am all for rewards for dedicated PVPers, but would rather them be cosmetic ones like speeders, titles, skins, etc.

[Erasimus]

Not sure you understand what it will be like when you hit 50 and try to pvp. There are already quite a few battlemaster groups running. In a month the warzones will be saturated and you WILL get destroyed by anyone in full gear. Are you willing to spend two months losing non stop, getting chain stunned and annihilated by higher gear players? A brand new ungeared 50 is arguably less useful to a warzone team than a lvl 10 in the lower bracket.

 

Still your point is taken, but I think the majority of people would prefer that pvp be an even playing field without any artificial advantages or disadvantages based on time played.

 

My guild already runs multiple 50 WZs so I'll join one of them, pay my dues and eventually be one of the fully geared battlemaster ;-)

 

On my 42 Gunslinger I already have one champ bag in the bank and 1k Merc and 1k Val badges. So I have a chance of getting a few pieces the day I hit 50. While I like winning I still enjoy the game even when I lose. Fighting better geared opponents helps me improve my skills. If losing in a PvP match ruins the enjoyment of the game for someone, well I don't know what to say. There is really no difference in PvE. While you are gearing up for hardmodes you will most likely wipe multiple times. How is that different from what happens when you first start PvP at 50?

 

As you gain gear and skill you start progressing in PvE the same happens in PvP. It takes both to get to the top.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Erasimus

[-sasori]

My guild already runs multiple 50 WZs so I'll join one of them, pay my dues and eventually be one of the fully geared battlemaster ;-)

 

On my 42 Gunslinger I already have one champ bag in the bank and 1k Merc and 1k Val badges. So I have a chance of getting a few pieces the day I hit 50. While I like winning I still enjoy the game even when I lose. Fighting better geared opponents helps me improve my skills. If losing in a PvP match ruins the enjoyment of the game for someone, well I don't know what to say. There is really no difference in PvE. While you are gearing up for hardmodes you will most likely wipe multiple times. How is that different from what happens when you first start PvP at 50?

 

Err? I agree about when you fight *better* players you may learn something, but in rift as here it's not a fight, and nothing to be learned.

 

Someone who does 2k to 4k a second to *you* while receiving 700 to 2k from *you* at 1/3th more HP - Leads them to *derp* *derp* *derp* while stomping you in the stunlock.

 

So what exactly did you "learn" when getting your 14k hp shot down in 10 seconds while doing 8k to him in 10 seconds? Run next time? LOS kite him so you wont die that fast but still fail to do anything else during that time?

 

There is something wrong if the only way you could win is, someone you fight is afk or completely out of touch with his skillbar and this doesn't make a good argument either.

Edited January 24, 2012 by -sasori

[Rhyveth]

My guild already runs multiple 50 WZs so I'll join one of them, pay my dues and eventually be one of the fully geared battlemaster ;-)

 

On my 42 Gunslinger I already have one champ bag in the bank and 1k Merc and 1k Val badges. So I have a chance of getting a few pieces the day I hit 50. While I like winning I still enjoy the game even when I lose. Fighting better geared opponents helps me improve my skills. If losing in a PvP match ruins the enjoyment of the game for someone, well I don't know what to say. There is really no difference in PvE. While you are gearing up for hardmodes you will most likely wipe multiple times. How is that different from what happens when you first start PvP at 50?

 

As you gain gear and skill you start progressing in PvE the same happens in PvP. It takes both to get to the top.

 

It isn't losing that annoys people it's not even having a chance to win. There is a big difference. Most people don't veiw the 'pay my dues' bit as philosophically as you do. Like you I prepared for 50 by saving commendations and gear bags and I will likely be in champ gear in a week and battle masters a couple after that. But not everyone will prepare in that manner.

 

Also as more and more people reach battlemaster, having ungeared 50's will become even more of a weakness in warzones. To me it is simple, most people want to at least have a chance at winning. Removing the gear differences gives everyone a fighting chance at winning. That will bring more people into pvp thus making warzones pop faster and get more people out to illum and smuggler's den. More people = more fun.

 

There are plenty of ways to reward players without giving them an unreasonable advantage. Most would be fine with server rankings. I.E. most kills per week, most healing done, most warzones won etc. you can also give out special gear(cosmetic) and titles for success in pvp.

[goxwerd]

I know it sounds bad when i type it but for me a lot of the fun in PVP isn't having a fair "duel"

 

 

In past games almost nothing was more fun than going out and pvping once you got a new weapon that no one had yet and blow people up. Or finish your set up high end gear that few people had and head out into some pvp.

 

I enjoy a fair fight but i dont pvp specifically to have a fair fight. I want my character to be powerful i want to be able to take on 2on1 with gear and skill.

 

MMOs to me have always been about progression. I enjoy putting my character that i built and geared against other characters that other people built. I never viewed MMOs as everyone has 100 health and all the same stuff and we fight. Part of the appeal to me is you have control over how "good" your character is.

 

I do think however that the SWTOR gear grind and implementation is awful and is not in the spirit of normal mmo gear progression. Most of my comments are based from past games before the current trend where you basically just grinding out a set of pvp gear that is required to pvp. There is just too much of a gear gap already and ruins the entire experience.

 

I guess my random point that no one will read is i do not think making pvp just deathmatch premade character is anything more than a knee jerk reaction to a problem Bioware made with their awful pvp system.

[Malleki]

I respectfully disagree. If they removed the ability to improve your gear through PvP I would only PvP once in a blue moon, about the same as I play FPS games. This is an MMO, not an FPS. Character improvement, including gear progression/specialization is part of what I like about MMOs, that and of course the social aspect. If you want to normalize all gear, then why not normalize everything including damage abilities, CC, etc. That way it is a completely balanced skill only game. Of course latency, computer hardware, etc. would still have an effect on play.

 

And no, I don't play 24/7 I'm a professional, work full time and have other hobbies so I don't even have a level 50 yet.

 

League of Legends is a FTP game and I would imagine that many people only play occasionally so it makes sense to normalize since many would not be willing to invest any significant amount of time in improving their character.

 

I would venture a guess, from talking to my son and some other avid PvP'ers (anecdotal evidence I know), that many of us, including myself, would simply quit playing if gear progression and specialization were taken out of the equation. I can buy a console game or FPS for my PC if that is what I'm looking for.

 

Interestingly enough, I would have expected someone who can't play regularly to be on this side of the fence, but I respect your opinion. But I will say, gearing from 50 when you know your letting your team down, simply by having worse gear than the rest, is not the greatest feeling. Thankfully when I started, there wern't many Battlemasters, but that is changing rapidly.

 

If I wanted to play an FPS, I'd play one, and I often do if the urge arises. Its besides my point. I'm not saying thats what I want, they dont have a 'world' attached to them and their game-type is totally different. Its a bunch of maps and a lobby. In essence they could tie in a fully functional world, with a balanced PvP option in which you can increase the prestige of your character you lovingly leveled, then go PvE with the same toon, followed by some space battles, crafting etc.... Your wrapping multiple game types into one MMO-shaped box, containing something everyone can enjoy. Right now? It's not about PvP or PvE its all about GEAR and that imo is the fundamental issue. People are hooked on gear and it's damaging games.

 

I work 9 to 5 but spend most of the downtime playing games, but I always find that there are people who simply have more free time than me. So there will naturally always be people higher geared or who got there first.

I don't have an issue with that alone, but when you parcel up a huge gear advantage with greater experience it ends up completely overwhelming for the newer player. I like a challange personally, i would rather go up against someone with more gear than me and try to improve (given the choice of more of less). But this isn't the case for alot of people and you don't want them pushed out of the game because of it.

Sometimes you have to think outside of your direct preference of the familiar and imagine how the system would work as a whole. Not about what is lost, but how much better the PvP system would be without the gear advantages.

 

If you enjoy PvE gear progression thats just fine, it would still be there. Infact due to the streamlined PvP system they would probably have more time to add new warzones and PvE content.

 

If the game is designed to favor the geared then how does fresh blood join in? By getting pummeled for weeks until they get enough gear together to be mildly viable.

It's already a problem at the moment, imagine how it will be when your main playerbase is covered in Battlemaster gear? It wont matter when they are fighting eachother, they may as well all be in their boxers as the gear cancels out, but anyone who hasn't acheived thus-far gets crushed and either stops PvPing or playing whatso-ever

[Erasimus]

Err? I agree about when you fight *better* players you may learn something, but in rift as here it's not a fight, and nothing to be learned.

 

Someone who does 2k to 4k a second to *you* while receiving 700 to 2k from *you* at 1/3th more HP - Leads them to *derp* *derp* *derp* while stomping you in the stunlock.

 

So what exactly did you "learn" when getting your 14k hp shot down in 10 seconds while doing 8k to him in 10 seconds? Run next time? LOS kite him so you wont die that fast but still fail to do anything else during that time?

 

There is something wrong if the only way you could win is, someone you fight is afk or completely out of touch with his skillbar and this doesn't make a good argument either.

 

Sorry, but I don't agree. WZ PvP is a team effort not a duel. Even before they had a 50s bracket I won plenty of matches on my lower level characters. A level 20 has no more chance against a level 49 one-on-one (even with bolster) unless the 49 is completely incompetent, than a new 50 has against one that is in complete battlemaster gear. At lower levels I learn how perform more of a supporting role than an "out-front" role. If I can heal at all I spend at least some time healing a better geared higher level character. If I can't heal I try to maximise the use of my CC's and interrupts in support of the team.

 

The biggest issue I've seen in losing WZs is that people tend to treat them like a bunch of one-on-one duels. If you do that you will definitely lose against a team that works together even if the gear were identical. A lesser geared team can win against better gear if they are more organized.

 

Right now most join WZs at random. If you come up against a fully geared team of 50s there is a good chance that:

 

1. They are fairly skilled

2. Probably coordinating on vent

3. Made an effort to balance the team (Healers/CC/etc)

 

If you do the above you should have an excellent chance in any WZ. Yes if the team you are up against is doing the same and is better geared then you'll lose. But once again, how is this different than the wiping and gradually learning the fights and getting better gear in PvE OPs encounters before you can conquer hard modes?

 

P.S. Remember, this is a social game as are all MMOs. If you insist on playing it as though it were a single person game you will be at a disadvantage for some things like PvP and OPS.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Erasimus

[-sasori]

Sorry, but I don't agree. WZ PvP is a team effort not a duel. Even before they had a 50s bracket I won plenty of matches on my lower level characters. A level 20 has no more chance against a level 49 one-on-one (even with bolster) unless the 49 is completely incompetent, than a new 50 has against one that is in complete battlemaster gear. At lower levels I learn how perform more of a supporting role than an "out-front" role. If I can heal at all I spend at least some time healing a better geared higher level character. If I can't heal I try to maximise the use of my CC's and interrupts in support of the team.

 

The biggest issue I've seen in losing WZs is that people tend to treat them like a bunch of one-on-one duels. If you do that you will definitely lose against a team that works together even if the gear were identical. A lesser geared team can win against better gear if they are more organized.

 

Right now most join WZs at random. If you come up against a fully geared team of 50s there is a good chance that:

 

1. They are fairly skilled

2. Probably coordinating on vent

3. Made an effort to balance the team (Healers/CC/etc)

 

If you do the above you should have an excellent chance in any WZ. Yes if the team you are up against is doing the same and is better geared then you'll lose. But once again, how is this different than the wiping and gradually learning the fights and getting better gear in PvE OPs encounters before you can conquer hard modes?

 

P.S. Remember, this is a social game as are all MMOs. If you insist on playing it as though it were a single person game you will be at a disadvantage for some things like PvP and OPS.

 

Because when you master the tactic you can beat the ENTRY hardmodes to gear up for HARDER challenges and new tactics.

 

And this is what is different to PVP. You can set up a team, strawman all the way to how a team makes the difference and still get roflstomped by 3 people wearing BM gear. Why? Because all you can hope for the enemy team is really afk or brainless farming kills for valor and medals instead of fighting for objectives . EG the boss bugs out and does not attack back, is your only hope for beating it EVER.

 

 

Sorry if i don't agree this is a good system if my only chance of "winning" is to hope someone else fails utterly or their whole team for that matter.

 

 

And for arguments sake, when discussing balance or mechanics don't assume 50%crit means 100% of the time you do crit, or the enemy unplugged his keyboard and mouse.

Edited January 24, 2012 by -sasori

[Erasimus]

...

If the game is designed to favor the geared then how does fresh blood join in? By getting pummeled for weeks until they get enough gear together to be mildly viable.

It's already a problem at the moment, imagine how it will be when your main playerbase is covered in Battlemaster gear? It wont matter when they are fighting eachother, they may as well all be in their boxers as the gear cancels out, but anyone who hasn't acheived thus-far gets crushed and either stops PvPing or playing whatso-ever

 

Let me just give my take on this part. There is a constant turnover, new people coming in, old players being bored, etc. leaving. So you are correct, gearing becomes issue at some point. As the game ages I'm sure Bioware will take some measures to make the gear progression during leveling brings you a bit closer to what you need to be competitive, I know they did that in WoW for both PvE and PvP so we'll see how that goes in the future.

 

 

That aside tho most of the time I've spent in WoW (7 years) was as a raider although I also did a lot of PvP. So how did we gear up new raiders. The top guilds on server only took people that were already geared, but other guilds accepted new applicants and, if they fit well with the guild, helped them to get the gear they needed to raid/PvP. I know we did this constantly to replenish our raiding roster.

 

I would think that SWTOR would be the same. If you want to participate in the highest levels of either PvE or PvP you'll need to be in a guild. I don't see that changing any time soon. If you are in a guild your guildmates will/should be helping you get the gear you need to be competitive in PvE/PvP depending on the focus of the guild.

 

Heck, in WoW our guild would have "PvP" days. We'd go in as a guild and often, even against people with complete PvP sets, which could be just as overpowered as here, we'd win because we were used to playing as a team. Now this wasn't arenas (rated WZs here), but those are a different matter.

[Erasimus]

Because when you master the tactic you can beat the ENTRY hardmodes to gear up for HARDER challenges and new tactics.

 

And this is what is different to PVP. You can set up a team, strawman all the way to how a team makes the difference and still get roflstomped by 3 people wearing BM gear. Why? Because all you can hope for the enemy team is really afk or brainless farming kills for valor and medals instead of fighting for objectives . EG the boss bugs out and does not attack back, is your only hope for beating it EVER.

 

 

Sorry if i don't agree this is a good system if my only chance of "winning" is to hope someone else fails utterly or their whole team for that matter.

 

 

And for arguments sake, when discussing balance or mechanics don't assume 50%crit means 100% of the time you do crit, or the enemy unplugged his keyboard and mouse.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I still don't see the difference between wiping on new bosses to get new gear and losing in WZs to get valor/medals to get new gear so you can beat the new boss/be competitive in WZs. Now I actually have to get some work done, so that is it from me for now

[Malleki]

I understand where your coming from Erasimus, but considering the current climate I imagine there will be a high saturation of Battlemasters in a short time?

 

I would think that SWTOR would be the same. If you want to participate in the highest levels of either PvE or PvP you'll need to be in a guild. I don't see that changing any time soon. If you are in a guild your guildmates will/should be helping you get the gear you need to be competitive in PvE/PvP depending on the focus of the guild.

 

The other thing to consider if that you don't have a choice against going up against guildies or non-guildies. So if you are without one, your basically saying you will have to put up with poor PvP performance. If you find a good one that will help you thats fantastic, but alot of people either don't or can't. That shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of PvP.

There is a huge difference between some form of rated/ranked (usually guild v guild) PvP experience and a casual warzone queue available for everyone.

 

Frankly I'd be far happier if Guild vs Guild or Ranked warzones were possible, but I would also argue that they removed gear-stats in those too. Make it about the player, not the gear.

[Vegathegreat]

I know it sounds bad when i type it but for me a lot of the fun in PVP isn't having a fair "duel"

 

 

In past games almost nothing was more fun than going out and pvping once you got a new weapon that no one had yet and blow people up. Or finish your set up high end gear that few people had and head out into some pvp.

 

I enjoy a fair fight but i dont pvp specifically to have a fair fight. I want my character to be powerful i want to be able to take on 2on1 with gear and skill.

 

MMOs to me have always been about progression. I enjoy putting my character that i built and geared against other characters that other people built. I never viewed MMOs as everyone has 100 health and all the same stuff and we fight. Part of the appeal to me is you have control over how "good" your character is.

 

I do think however that the SWTOR gear grind and implementation is awful and is not in the spirit of normal mmo gear progression. Most of my comments are based from past games before the current trend where you basically just grinding out a set of pvp gear that is required to pvp. There is just too much of a gear gap already and ruins the entire experience.

 

I guess my random point that no one will read is i do not think making pvp just deathmatch premade character is anything more than a knee jerk reaction to a problem Bioware made with their awful pvp system.

 

I agree with this.....

[Klaxius]

Riot games just released some crazy numbers about the amount of people that play League of Legends on a given day and the amount of users they have. That is a pvp game with no permanent gear progression that is wildly successful. Why people think you need to have gear progression to get people to pvp is beyond me. I don't want to have an advantage over someone else in pvp just because the RNG gods love me more than them with loot bags.

 

There's so much just pure fun in the 1-49 bracket right now. It makes me fall on the side of removing expertise very heavily.

 

But that is where you are wrong... Have you ever played LoL? If yes, have you ever played it on a high level? If yes, then you know that you MUST have the right characters, runes, and masteries to be competitive. Characters and esp. runes are very expensive progression type gear. To get a full set of T3 runes takes HUNDREDS of games for just one set, each of those games averaging 35-45 mins, much shorter than our warzones. Competitive LoL is much harder to get geared than this game.

[TekaruPrime]

Good topic and good discussion.

 

Sorry for the obvious comparison, but WoW has had years to get to the point it is now. When it launched, I don't think there even WERE any battlegrounds.

 

several years and several millions of customers later, THEN they added BGs.

 

so it's really hard for SWTOR (or any new MMO) to come out at launch day with X number of PvP maps and expect x number of players to que up and so forth.

 

What BW has done really well (for the most part) better than I'd say even WOW at this point, is started from launch day with a really strong core of classes that are designed for "fair" PvP.

what they've done wrong, we could spend countless discussions arguing. no brackets + all levels lumped together + uber-powerful PvP gear + not enough people queing = no where near "fair" PvP.

 

so no arguments, I think, SOME thing has to be done.

 

and so far, I have to agree with the OP: entering a warzone should "bolster" everyone to the same (class appropriate) stats. period.

earning PvP gear should be about custom looks. period.

fair and balanced PvP will be appealing to a large majority of subscribers. sure it might annoy the minority of customers that love ganking and getting cheap kills and I say too bad for them.

create a NEW WAY of playing PvP. make it about "Republic vs Empire" and "I want to be in the best team" and "ranking" and all the other things that can be just as rewarding, just as much if not more of an incentive to play and keep playing PvP.

[Erasimus]

Good topic and good discussion.

 

Sorry for the obvious comparison, but WoW has had years to get to the point it is now. When it launched, I don't think there even WERE any battlegrounds.

 

several years and several millions of customers later, THEN they added BGs.

 

so it's really hard for SWTOR (or any new MMO) to come out at launch day with X number of PvP maps and expect x number of players to que up and so forth.

 

What BW has done really well (for the most part) better than I'd say even WOW at this point, is started from launch day with a really strong core of classes that are designed for "fair" PvP.

what they've done wrong, we could spend countless discussions arguing. no brackets + all levels lumped together + uber-powerful PvP gear + not enough people queing = no where near "fair" PvP.

 

so no arguments, I think, SOME thing has to be done.

 

and so far, I have to agree with the OP: entering a warzone should "bolster" everyone to the same (class appropriate) stats. period.

earning PvP gear should be about custom looks. period.

fair and balanced PvP will be appealing to a large majority of subscribers. sure it might annoy the minority of customers that love ganking and getting cheap kills and I say too bad for them.

create a NEW WAY of playing PvP. make it about "Republic vs Empire" and "I want to be in the best team" and "ranking" and all the other things that can be just as rewarding, just as much if not more of an incentive to play and keep playing PvP.

 

I'm back It would be good to remember that we are all just posting our opinions and generalizations about the majority of players are pretty much unfounded. I don't agree with this post and neither do any of my "friends" but that has no bearing on what the "majority" of players care about.

 

On a PvE server is is quite possible that the majority of players seldom enter WZs. For that matter if the experience of past MMOs is any indication the vast majority of players never even look or post on the forums. Only the vocal few, which since I'm bored at work at the moment, incudes me. But often weeks/months will go by where I don't even look at the forums.

 

So lets remember the everyone, including myself, is just stating their opinion and I know that personally I wouldn't presume to speak for the majority of players, just myself.

 

Bioware will be accumulating statistics on who plays which parts of the game etc. This is still a very young game. Things will change going forward I'm sure. Balancing PvP, in every game I've played, has always been an ongoing challenge. So long as they keep it fun, I'll personally be happy. But everyone's idea of fun is most likely a bit different.

 

P.S. I've never ganked anyone, in fact I won't even attack someone that is more than a few levels below me when I'm in a world PvP zone and I'm on a PvP server. And I still like the separate PvP and PvE gear progression (including different stats for each).

Edited January 24, 2012 by Erasimus

[TekaruPrime]

fair enough, I am just speculating. if we could get some data on how many people play in PvP - and further get their OPINIONS on why or why not, that'd really help.

 

of course we are just guessing that those that don't are not doing it either because

 

a) they aren't interested in it and never will be or

b) are interested but are frustrated by how unfair it is

 

my suggestions would help b) - and possibly help a) - by giving them a different incentive to participate in the first place.

 

for groups that already like it we can guess that

 

c) people that love it the way it is because it's NOT fair and they like earning their way to the 'not fair' status or

d) aren't trying to be 'not fair' but they do like being rewarded for their hard work

 

my suggestions might help d) if they perceive the cosmetic rewards are still worth it, and well, it won't help c) as we are proposing.

 

so really, if group c) really is the MAJORITY, then this is a bad idea. lol

[Malleki]

Well thats fair enough Erasimus, we're all speculating. Sadly the lack of any direct details prevents proper analysis.

I mainly brought this up to see some varying opinions, so I'm quite satisfied with the thread sofar

 

I do imagine PvE servers still get a high quantity of Warzone traffic, the main difference between the two is you have to consent to all your PvP, on a PVP server you don't. So people don't neccesarily pick one just to PvE, they may just want to level up in peace and PvP on their own terms.

 

In general I think the casual player would benefit alot from what I was suggesting, while still providing plenty of fresh players for the end-game PvP pool. I just feel there are far better methods of progression than +stats on PvP gear.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Malleki

[RealAeiouy]

If you like pvp you will pvp and get gear as a side effect of having fun.

[Malleki]

If you like pvp you will pvp and get gear as a side effect of having fun.

 

And as a side effect, the gear makes you more powerful than others joining PvP with far less experience. You end up witha stagnant pool of PvPers and everyone stops having fun and spends more time in queues. I know it's just speculation but I just feel at this rate, we're going to push people away from wanting to PvP instead of having to for gear.

 

I'd rather have unique gear that showed me as a longstanding & decent PvPer who plays his class well, without making me stronger. Not gear that lets me crush someone new even if they actually played better.

 

 

Alternatively they could use stat-less gear that has set bonuses which alter your abilities instead of straight up improving them. (For example making Soresu stance give me more % armor bonus, but at the same time reducing my damage by a set %) Giving me more choices in how I PvP but making sure it's tied in with a disadvantage that stops me being stronger than the average player.

 

It means there is still a point to PvP-gear, you can adapt how you want to play. But it doesn't leave you with a giant power gap.

 

Progression doesn't have to be about the +Stats. You can progress players in many other meaningful ways without destroying the actual challenge of PvP.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Malleki

[Malleki]

Would love to get some more opinions on this.

 

I've been noticing alot of favor for 1-49 PvP bracket on the forums as gear simply has little/no effect due to the bolster system. I really think this is a viable solution to the level 50 PvP bracket.

 

We want to promote people to play it, not have them smacked down by someone who was lucky on the RNG or simply has a greater excess of time to play it. As one of the people who has an excess of time to play the game, I DONT want an advantage over new players.

We should all fight on similar terms to keep the game interesting.

[Dogfatherxx]

In a gear based MMO, this is unlikely to happen. There are people who have strong opinions on both sides of the issue. At the end of the day, I do not see BW changing the game. We likely have the same PVP system that we will have a year from now.

[Malleki]

In a gear based MMO, this is unlikely to happen. There are people who have strong opinions on both sides of the issue. At the end of the day, I do not see BW changing the game. We likely have the same PVP system that we will have a year from now.

 

I don't see why it couldn't happen, given enough support. You can still get gear and rewards, just no stat advantage during warzones.

All MMOs change and evolve, some more drastically than others. I sincerely hope we don't just sit on this system for a year as the level 50 queues will become progressively worse and worse.

Some people are already reporting 50 bracket PvP as unplayable due to queue times. As to how accurate this is I don't know as Bloodworthy is very high pop. But if smaller servers are already noticing a problem, then it will only get worse.