Why doesn't swtor utilize the entire planet???????

[DTuloJr]

Well, this shows they know how to ignore testers that don't say anything worth paying attention to.

 

Could you imagine Blizzard taking a comment like this seriously, during their beta test phase?

 

"Dear Blizzard: Why is Stranglethorn Jungle all jungle? Why are the Badlands all rocky? Why is Un'goro all filled with dinosaurs?"

 

PLANET==ZONE.

 

That's pretty arrogant of you to assume that nothing was said that was valuable. BWA ignored excellent suggestions, advice, and criticisms, regardless of the future impact to their ability to make, and keep making, money, or to provide a better return on the investment of their stockholders. The Gamasutra James Ohlen interview pretty much solidified that as fact; the devs had their vision, damn anyone else for making any suggestionsm, no matter what.

 

SWTOR is NOT meant to be a single player RPG. It is meant to be an MMO RPG. It was meant to be a "fully realized online world". As such, players expect a bit more variety and imagination and, dare I say it (I dare!), INNOVATION in the games they play, especially in 2012. It doesn't take a genius to understand that every location possible on every planet in the SWTORverse should NOT be identical; planets should have diverse locations, with equally diverse thematic feel.

 

Zones, to be cohesive, need a dominant theme/tone/setting. You have a lot of variety in a single zone -- both Tattooine and Hoth are good examples, while Taris is a good example of how to do it very, very, poorly -- but there has to be a degree of thematic cohesion, or you basically have one zone doing double duty, which tends to be bad; you're better off making two zones. (One reason for this is zone-wide effects such as weather, color palette shifts, loot tables, and so on.) Very rarely, you can achieve a lot of impact with a few small out-of-band regions in a zone, places that are very different from the surroundings, but a little of that goes a very long way. The tipping point between "Wow, cool, I never expected to see that here!" and "Did they just randomly generate this mess, or what?" is pretty small.

 

Some of SWTORs zones are well designed; some are not. We can debate that forever. However, saying that they're flawed because each has a strong style/tone/theme is missing the point entirely.

 

The very simple concept that was missed is that each Planet should have multiple zones. If they want to stick with a cohesive thematic element withen each "zone", I absolutely get it and fully agree. I even understand why they have fixed lighting, though tend to feel fixed lighting and weather detract from the product, overall. The problem is that BWA fell victim to the assumption that just because a player goes to a planet, that everything must be local in one relatively tiny area. We're already beaten to death with loading screens, what's one more that get us on a shuttle to a different location on a planet? Or the opportunity to land at a spaceport other than the single main one on a planet?

[LizardSF]

SWTOR is NOT meant to be a single player RPG. It is meant to be an MMO RPG. It was meant to be a "fully realized online world".

 

It was always intended as a themepark, not sandbox, MMO. Nothing was ever hinted or implied otherwise, to my knowledge. Also, the amount of planets, etc, has NOTHING to do with if it's "single player" or not (it's not, BTW). Non-sequiter much? I also like pudding.

 

As such, players expect a bit more variety and imagination and, dare I say it (I dare!), INNOVATION in the games they play, especially in 2012.

 

Players need to learn to manage their expectations.

 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that every location possible on every planet in the SWTORverse should NOT be identical; planets should have diverse locations, with equally diverse thematic feel.

 

Why? The Star Wars universe is full of the typical "planet of hats" -- this is the Desert Planet, this is the Ice Planet, this is the Redwood Planet (complete with furry little hippies), this is the City Planet, this is the Swamp Planet, etc. In all the movies, Tattooine is the only world we've even seen more than one location on. Worlds with only one point of interest are absolutely true to the source material. (And this has been acknowledged in the SW RPG material for tabletop gaming; GMs are encouraged to quickly shift from world to world, instead of developing one planet in detail.)

 

 

The very simple concept that was missed is that each Planet should have multiple zones.

 

Each planet does, and the larger it gets, the more zones it has. Check your Codex. It will show the zones you've found on each world.

 

We're already beaten to death with loading screens, what's one more that get us on a shuttle to a different location on a planet? Or the opportunity to land at a spaceport other than the single main one on a planet?

 

In terms of core game mechanics, there is NO difference between "click here to go to this completely different looking part of the same planet" and "click here to go to this other planet". Again, you obsessing over the idea that "planet" means something in game terms. IT DOES NOT. You could easily edit a few things to put all the existing content on one "planet", or split any planet into four or five by declaring "these zones are on planet a, these zones are on planet b" and making you click a shuttle door, instead of a speeder bike, to go between them.

 

Content is content is content is content.

 

"Here's X square miles of terrain, with three quest hubs and 27 different mobs." It can be part of a "planet", it can be an "instance", it can be an entire "planet" in itself. It's just a region containing content; only some text strings and zone-change animation determines if it's part of one "planet" or if it's part of another. Hell, you could make each zone a floating island in an infinite void linked by galactic teleport portals, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

 

Whether it's better to have the Swamps Of Tattooine or the Tropical Jungles of Hoth, or whether it's better to add Swamp World and Jungle World as separate worlds, is mostly a matter of resources, story, and spacing out players for technical and gameplay reasons.[1] If they'd taken all their existing content and merged it into fewer planets -- keeping the EXACT SAME AMOUNT of quests, monsters, zones, items, and terrain to explore etc -- people would whine "There's too few planets! Waaaaa!". If they did the opposite -- split the content into more "planets", again keeping the SAME AMOUNT OF TOTAL CONTENT, people would whine "The planets are too small! Waaaaa!". And, of course, people currently manage to simultaneously whine that the planets are too small AND they're too large and that travel takes too long and there's no exploration and that there's no group content and that it's too hard to play because you can't get a group and....

 

[1]it's cool there's a 40+ series of zones on Alderaan, but it's also a problem; half the players there are not playing with the other half, but they're in the same shared chat space. It also leads to bugs -- security chests on Alderaan drop level 28-29 items, even in the level 40 zone, and Alderaan commendations are awarded in the level 40 zone, but are useless to level 40 players. Mechanically, these need to be separate zones, or there needs to be a set of "Advanced Commendations" or something, and loot tables usable for the level 40 security chests.

[wolveroach]

Didnt see this posted so if I missed it, appologies...

 

Can you imagine how infrequently you would encounter other players if the entire planet was playable? I see posts everyday talking about how empty the game feels and that players are happy to see one other person and that is within the confines of the current planet setup.

 

Sure I would love to see the future location of Luke's childhood home on Tattooine but not at the risk of never seeing anyone on any planet ever again.

 

As much as my inner explorer wants to cruze all over each and every planet, I don't want to see random animations repeated over and over again. If there were to be complete planets, they had better have something to see and hopefully do.

[gurugeorge]

It doesn't take a genius to understand that every location possible on every planet in the SWTORverse should NOT be identical; planets should have diverse locations, with equally diverse thematic feel.

 

That is not SW canon. SW canon is - Tattoine = "desert planet", Hoth = "Ice planet", Kasshyk = "Jungle planet", Coruscant = "City planet"

 

If this upsets you, take it up with LucasArts, not BW.

[Arkerus]

You do realize that to use an entire planet would be millions of miles of space that would have to craft. That's...absurd at best.

 

Dev time needs to focus on our immediate concerns and needs...not adding 1000s of miles of empty space.

[denpic]

I think the zones are large enough as is

Also future expansions will expand on planet

Size

[DTuloJr]

It was always intended as a themepark, not sandbox, MMO. Nothing was ever hinted or implied otherwise, to my knowledge. Also, the amount of planets, etc, has NOTHING to do with if it's "single player" or not (it's not, BTW). Non-sequiter much? I also like pudding.

 

The very first press release on this website clearly states otherwise. As does a developer blog describing the objective as basically middle-of-the-road between theme park and sandbox. As well as numerous online and offline interviews that Lucasfilm, LucasArts, Electronic Arts, BioWare, and BioWare Austin executives, managers, administrators, developers, designers, programmers, testers, lawyers, and marketing staff have given, hyping features and attributes that in some cases, just don't plain exist. There is only one single employee "of importance" that I am aware of that has EVER kept the information flow straight and narrow, completely honest with what we have in front of us; Georg Zoeller.

 

As to single player, most aspects of the game don't feel MMO-ish, they feel a lot like a much smaller and narrower single player RPG. There is a very specific reason for that; someone at LucasArts decided that YOU had to play THE hero, all of the time. So that's how they designed most of the story, to feel like you're THE hero. That's how nearly all single player RPG's are. Most MMO's have a "you are ONE among MANY heroes" storyline. Not so, here.

 

Players need to learn to manage their expectations.

 

And companies and marketing departments should be held to provide what they advertise... oh wait, there *are* laws for that, to a point...

 

Why? The Star Wars universe is full of the typical "planet of hats" -- this is the Desert Planet, this is the Ice Planet, this is the Redwood Planet (complete with furry little hippies), this is the City Planet, this is the Swamp Planet, etc. In all the movies, Tattooine is the only world we've even seen more than one location on. Worlds with only one point of interest are absolutely true to the source material. (And this has been acknowledged in the SW RPG material for tabletop gaming; GMs are encouraged to quickly shift from world to world, instead of developing one planet in detail.)

 

I am quite familiar with the STAR WARS: The Roleplaying Game materials, as well as many of the tenants behind the overarching design and editing philosophies behind it. One of which is the concept of the MILLION STAR SYSTEM Republic and Empire, not the million square inch one that tends to be the limit to the concept with most people, including authors, designers, and GM's. In terms of SW:RPG, GM's are encouraged to make setting changes frequently, purely for reasons of pacing. That's a general lesson that SWTOR designers failed to take into consideration, as well as those of most other games on the market.

 

The reasons you don't see multiple highly detailed locations of widely varying setting on planets other than Tatooine and Naboo, are budget, story scope, pacing, and ultimately, film time. Plus, what we see on screen are a small band of individuals performing a few linked quests, not the hundreds our characters are bogged down with.

 

Each planet does, and the larger it gets, the more zones it has. Check your Codex. It will show the zones you've found on each world.

 

You completely, thoroughly missed the point. STAR WARS is all about story, scope, scaling, and pacing. Most of SWTOR completely misses most aspects of the latter three, very unprofessionally, but does an overall decent job on story.

 

Let me give you an example; Ord Mantell is a volcanic island. A single volcanic island, a few square miles across, and they have an entire civil war, that draws in the entire Galactic Republic and Sith Empire? Where are the references to the rest of Ord Mantellian civilization? The other cities? Something believable in scope and scale? They aren't present, anywhere. Right off the bat, that's a major problem.

 

I get that they don't want players having easy method of transportation quickly, or fast running skills, whatever. They should at least have had the story cover an island chain. They missed major opportunities to take the fight underwater... (ignoring, of course, the limitations of the HeroEngine platform and/or BWA's developer competency...) BWA missed a major opportunity to establish an immediate THIS IS STAR WARS feel.

 

What they gave us, lost the scope and vision of what they hyped. That is okay, but it is also sad.

 

 

In terms of core game mechanics, there is NO difference between "click here to go to this completely different looking part of the same planet" and "click here to go to this other planet". Again, you obsessing over the idea that "planet" means something in game terms. IT DOES NOT. You could easily edit a few things to put all the existing content on one "planet", or split any planet into four or five by declaring "these zones are on planet a, these zones are on planet b" and making you click a shuttle door, instead of a speeder bike, to go between them.

 

Location provides context. Location matters. Locations do not have to be seamless. They enhance the story.

 

Content is content is content is content.

 

Story. Story. Story. Not content. Locations provide context to the story. Locations matter.

 

"Here's X square miles of terrain, with three quest hubs and 27 different mobs." It can be part of a "planet", it can be an "instance", it can be an entire "planet" in itself. It's just a region containing content; only some text strings and zone-change animation determines if it's part of one "planet" or if it's part of another. Hell, you could make each zone a floating island in an infinite void linked by galactic teleport portals, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

 

It may not matter to you. It matters to those who pay attention to the story.

[DTuloJr]

That is not SW canon. SW canon is - Tattoine = "desert planet", Hoth = "Ice planet", Kasshyk = "Jungle planet", Coruscant = "City planet"

 

If this upsets you, take it up with LucasArts, not BW.

 

BioWare AUSTIN had full creative license to play and invent anything within the STAR WARS property. Lucasfilm and LucasArts had, and exercised, final veto authority, but that was rare.

[DTuloJr]

You do realize that to use an entire planet would be millions of miles of space that would have to craft. That's...absurd at best.

 

Dev time needs to focus on our immediate concerns and needs...not adding 1000s of miles of empty space.

 

Actually, dirt-to-vacc absolutely CAN be done, though isn't something I or others have called for. Not that I'm plugging anything else, because I personally do NOT like the "game" aspects of it, but here's proof that it can be done.

 

http://www.infinity-universe.com/

 

This is accomplished "quite easily" by using a technique known as procedural generation. I do not think that it is something that could be used easily for a very well designed, story-based MMO, at this stage, though. However, saying it can NOT be done, or is ABSURD, is an opinion perhaps formed prematurely.

[maxetius]

Because when Bioware can't immediately populate a world full of interesting stuff, people will just whine about how there's a ton of space and nothing to d.

[LizardSF]

Story. Story. Story. Not content. Locations provide context to the story. Locations matter.

 

.

 

This is the only part of your post that really needs replying to, since it basically undermines everything else you've written.

 

STORY mandates detailed, hand-crafted, areas -- precisely what SWTOR delivers.

 

It is also the antithesis of a sandbox game -- whether tabletop or MMO.

 

I run sandbox games at my table -- because, as the DM, I can create imaginative content at will and provide it to my players as they explore. A computer is a craptastic DM. If a computer has to create content, it is bland, boring, and often ridiculously contradictory.

 

When it comes to MMOs, I prefer to have my content hand crafted in advance. Twenty years from now, or forty, there may be a computer which can match a human GM; until then, I do not want to pay 15.00/month to explore what a randomization algorithm I could have written when I was 16 (which would have been run on an Atari 400, so you have an idea how long ago that was...) has vomited forth.

 

I mean, seriously, if the lack of an actual, physical, explorable mass of NOTHING between two points of SOMETHING makes it impossible for you to immerse yourself in the story... no MMO will satisfy you until we invent a Holodeck. (Hell, you'd probably even hate my relatively open tabletop games... I have no problem saying, "OK, two weeks later, you arrive at...". You'd probably say, "Wait! I want to play out each footstep and encounter with random squirrels!" In MMOs, the non-existent nothing (that's not a double negative -- thing about it) between POIs is the "two weeks later" of the story.)

[Sylverlokk]

umm, you cant be seriously expecting them to make an entire city planet in full 1:1 scale right? because that would cost billions of dollars.

 

SWG had 10 planets with 15 by 15 grids each for a total of 2250 square km. And thats not even counting the space cubes above most worlds. Were getting less years later.

[RabidPopcorn]

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110708

 

SWTOR's map design is basically the above... which I don't really like.

 

Notice how you can't just open up a map (when say, you're in the Carrick Station), and view the map of say, the Jedi Temple in Coruscant? Heck, you can't even view the map of the floors above/beneath you (clicking the elevator doesn't work).

[ROSS-]

SWG had 10 planets with 15 by 15 grids each for a total of 2250 square km. And thats not even counting the space cubes above most worlds. Were getting less years later.

 

oh come on. those planets were empty with tons of nothingness. yeah, was it cool to ride your landspeeder across a bunch of nothing for long periods of time? Maybe the first time...

[shdwfx]

From what has been said, that is the plan. They plan on expanding and sending you back to the planets you have been to but they will be higher levels.

 

As for as going back to planets already in game, I do know that for Nar Shadaa, Alderaan and Hoth on the Empire side you do go back for the bonus series.

 

 

I find this statement funny. One of the biggest SWTOR fan boi arguments in the past few years considering this game has been "wow recycles content, SW:TOR doesn't" Thank you for clearing that up to the rest of the people slamming good games

[DTuloJr]

This is the only part of your post that really needs replying to, since it basically undermines everything else you've written.

 

STORY mandates detailed, hand-crafted, areas -- precisely what SWTOR delivers.

 

It is also the antithesis of a sandbox game -- whether tabletop or MMO.

 

Nothing I typed undermined a single thing that I've said. Not once did I request a pure sandbox. It is often assumed that just because I've expressed a desire for BioWare Austin to give us what they originally hyped in their vision statements, press releases, and interviews, that I'm calling for a return to the pure sandbox of SWG. That can't be further from the truth.

 

Sandboxes do NOT work, and are generally pure garbage. If not initially, they will be down the road. Sandboxes require dedicated people to create things for others to do, or some form of a random system that will accomplish that, without being repetitive or cheesy or outright lacking in sense. As the former does not exist, or will not exist beyond a few months until the next new thing comes along, and as the latter does not exist in any detailed manner (hey, they had six years to figure it out...), then yeah, I'd like to not see a pure sandbox game.

 

Except that BWA never promised a pure sandbox game, though the fact they hired their two studio heads right out of SWG development went a long way to convincing people who were *not* paying attention, that they were getting SWG II.

 

BWA promised a middle of the road game. They gave us pure theme park. All I'm asking for, is for what should have been present at launch, a few sandbox elements. Hopefully, they're looking towards that for the big super secret space element, but we'll see.

 

But regardless, read my posts... I've never called for pure sandbox. Not once. Ever.

[shdwfx]

BioWare AUSTIN had full creative license to play and invent anything within the STAR WARS property. Lucasfilm and LucasArts had, and exercised, final veto authority, but that was rare.

 

 

 

Um yes and no. BW is under a non-canon license. They have free creativity.

[Arkerus]

Actually, dirt-to-vacc absolutely CAN be done, though isn't something I or others have called for. Not that I'm plugging anything else, because I personally do NOT like the "game" aspects of it, but here's proof that it can be done.

 

http://www.infinity-universe.com/

 

This is accomplished "quite easily" by using a technique known as procedural generation. I do not think that it is something that could be used easily for a very well designed, story-based MMO, at this stage, though. However, saying it can NOT be done, or is ABSURD, is an opinion perhaps formed prematurely.

 

Anfd what exactyl do we do with all that space. NOTHING

[Kubernetic]

Once I'm thoroughly done enjoying the art and design of this moon, my fascination wanes as quickly as the din of that first casino I couldn't play any mini games in. I can't travel anywhere else on Nar Shadaa but one very small city. In fact, I can't travel anywhere on any planet except one small part of the planet. Total bummer.

 

Imagine how much more quickly your fascination would have waned if there had only been one or two planets at launch.

 

"How can this be Star Wars with only one or two planets?!? What gives, BioWare?! Where is our big Galactic Map with the ability to visit lots of worlds? Fail!"

 

Game's not done yet, kids.

 

BTW, most of Tatooine was inhospitable to life, leaving just a few areas at the Northern and Southern ends of the planet to be inhabited.

 

And Hoth was most likely the same way. Luke and Han pratically died and they were just running a little bit away from Echo Base.

 

Both planets had exhaustion zones, LOL. It's canon.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Kubernetic

[Cerion]

1. Because as small as they are now people still complain that it takes to long to get around them.

 

2. Because this gives them room to have expansions without creating a bunch of new planets. They can send us back to them into areas we havent been yet.

 

3. Because no matter what they did people wouldn't be happy.

 

 

And might I add, if they DID add all of this expansive new terrain, the density of content would become very small.

 

People like the idea of an open world, but when there's actually nothing out there other than trees and a few mobs, few people revisit these areas.

[DTuloJr]

Um yes and no. BW is under a non-canon license. They have free creativity.

 

Free to a point. A sex-slaves topic was reported to have been axed by LucasArts, and there have been reliable rumors of some additional "meddling" in things, but nothing toooo serious that I've heard. As to "Canon", technically, everything with the official Lucasfilm/LucasArts stamp of approval IS canon. It's just not "G-Canon", which is straight from Uncle George. In a nutshell, it roughly goes like this; the six movies are considered to be one universe, everything else happens in a parallel universe, or multiple parallel universes, such that things CAN contradict each other, but attempts are made to avoid contradiction with the Official Uncle George universe. Generally speaking the order roughly goes...

 

1. Things spoken, written, or otherwise created by, Uncle George.
   
2. Things in the Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game books by West End Games
   
3. Things in the Expanded Universe Novels.
   
4. Things in the Expanded Universe comics.
   
5. Anything else.
   
6. Unofficial Fan Fiction
   
7. Rumors
   

 

EDIT: Technically speaking, there have been NINE officially published Star Wars "movies"... there were two additional full-length Ewok movies, and the infamous Star Wars Christmas Special, which as much as Uncle George tries to disown it, contains some G-Canon elements...

Edited February 25, 2012 by DTuloJr

[Cerion]

SWG had 10 planets with 15 by 15 grids each for a total of 2250 square km. And thats not even counting the space cubes above most worlds. Were getting less years later.

 

2250 square km of nothing. Of bland. Absolutely boring. Let's not forget the utterly silly random MOB spawn points.

 

Oh yeah...let's look at the wonderfully ridiculous city of Corenet, shall we? It's supposed to be the capital city on one of the Core Worlds most populated planets, the seat of massive ship building...and what does SWG deliver, a dozen buildings that you can't enter. It was a *********** joke.

[DTuloJr]

And might I add, if they DID add all of this expansive new terrain, the density of content would become very small.

 

People like the idea of an open world, but when there's actually nothing out there other than trees and a few mobs, few people revisit these areas.

 

Open them up to resource farming. Make them tourist locations for achievements. How about long-term escort missions, or random missions or side-jobs? The point isn't that there HAS to be something to do everywhere... just that you CAN go everywhere. Or at least to some spot that was designed just TO BE.

 

I'm laughing at everyone that things it will be massively expensive. Import some freaking USGS topographical maps. It's not that expensive to accomplish something decent. They had six years, and how many people working on the game across the planet? It COULD have been accomplished. It still should.

[Tgpo]

OP, it's not that I don't agree with you, but if this was to have been expected when the game was released, we wouldn't be playing the game for another 10 years.

[Arkerus]

Open them up to resource farming. Make them tourist locations for achievements. How about long-term escort missions, or random missions or side-jobs? The point isn't that there HAS to be something to do everywhere... just that you CAN go everywhere. Or at least to some spot that was designed just TO BE.

 

I'm laughing at everyone that things it will be massively expensive. Import some freaking USGS topographical maps. It's not that expensive to accomplish something decent. They had six years, and how many people working on the game across the planet? It COULD have been accomplished. It still should.

 

How about seeing no one for days at a time.

 

1000s of miles of empty space sounds cool but its highly impractical.