Double-bladed lightsaber why must we use this?

[oaceen]

idk how old this thread is, so i may be necroing, but you can use electrostaves and still use all your abilities. just like guardians or sents can substitute vibroblades for their lightsabers(guardian with trooper armor and a huge vibroblade from balmorra commendations ftw).

 

on topic, if you switch to your dblsaber, activate your technique, then switch to single saber, its still active so you can still use discharge too. not a huge bonus considering how much else you cant use but still. I love the look of consular/sage melee animations, and i really wish shadow could use a single saber. doublesabers are too big, and clumsy.

 

force breach and whirling blow require double-bladed lightsbers (and i believe shadow strike as well, but i don't use it as a tank)

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Shadows also have specializations in electrostaves and such? Which is kind of pointless since you can't use anything other than a doublebladed saber. Personally I'd prefer a KOTOR style solution to weapon specialization (namely what type of weapon becomes a matter of choice, not class). Leave Shadows as getting double bladed saber training by default but allow their class trainer to sell dual wield training (and allow all Jedi classes to purchase weapon training). Then just take existing animations and tack them onto relevant abilities.

 

So for example if you use a single bladed saber and use Clairvoyant Strike it just uses the animation of a the top tier Guardian saber attack animation; if you dual wield it uses the top tier Sentinel animation. Copy and paste this for each Jedi class and allow people to choose the type of saber they want instead of being forced to use only one type of weapon style. Obviously certain play styles will favor certain weapons (DPS favoring double bladed or dual wield whereas Tanks and Healers likely preferring to use a single bladed saber), but it will still allow for more unique play styles and individuality.

[Kitru]

Leave Shadows as getting double bladed saber training by default but allow their class trainer to sell dual wield training (and allow all Jedi classes to purchase weapon training).

 

The problem with this is that the weapon a class uses is explicitly factored in to the balance status of the class: DBLS have 20% higher base weapon damage than regular sabers and no downside (a training cost is not a "downside"). There is also no specific mechanical mechanism that prevents the use of an offhand saber to go along with a DBLS, so, unless the developers were to add one, everyone and their cousin would be running around with a DBLS mainhand and a single saber offhand (since that's actually how you'd manage the higher DPS). In addition, you'd also run into the potential problem of not being able to tell which class was which without directly looking at the listed class. As it is now, it's pretty easy (single saber and robe = sage; singe saber and heavy armor = guardian; double saber = shadow; 2 sabers = sentinel). The "simple" solution of simply reusing animations from existing attacks also makes everything bland and boring (everyone with a single saber would have the same animations regardless of class, everyone with a DBLS would have the same animations regardless of class, etc.) and still requires a hefty amount of work (since it would require finding appropriate and discretely separate animations for each variation within a class so that there aren't 2 abilities with the same animation coupled with making the timing appropriate for each animation variation).

 

Furthermore, most of the attacks for specific classes are designed around being used with specific weapons: Guardian weapon attacks are designed to hit harder, individually, than Sentinel attacks are, specifically because Guardians use a single saber and a focus/shield as opposed to 2 weapons. There are fundamental balance factors behind the weapon types used by specific classes that would have to be readdressed in order to allow for everyone to use different types of weapons, not to mention the fact that there would have to be *something* done to make sure that people still want to use single sabers and foci rather than going with the obviously superior options.

 

No matter how it's implemented, if it *were* implemented, you'd still face the problem of specific weapons becoming the de facto weapon for specific roles and classes: if single sabers + focus/shield provides specific tanking or force use advantages to offset the lower base weapon damage compared to a double saber and lack of additional attacks with dual wielding, all tanks/healers/force users are going to use that load out. It would create "options", but they're not options that anyone would even reasonably take unless they care more about aesthetics than performance (which you can already do now by using a single saber on a Shadow or Sentinel).

[JediMasterRevan]

Honestly think they should have gone a different direction with Jedi class in general, keep it to 1 class then branch out. In the first or second trailer they said. " We want you to live like a Jedi and go out and explore with your lightsaber." Yeah...living like a Jedi means you "choose" what kinda saber you want to use, what class and saber forms you want to master.

[Grogget]

Whats funny is that people think they can "hide" their class from others by using different weapons... sure, it might work against someone who doesn't have class icons enabled. But if I ever saw an enemy Shadow use a single bladed lightsaber with that obvious dark blue icon over their heads... well, lets just say that they will become a high priority target.

[wolfyrik]

I also agree, infact I'd go so far as to say that it really doesn't work at all with the design of the class.

 

@kitru, you have some vailid arguments. Some of them I think are a little misplaced though. For example the guardian having a single sabre and using a shield/focus, this goes straight out of the window as shadows also choose a double light sabre (two handed weapon) with shield/focus.

 

I also don't believe that mixing off-hand weapons with double sabre is an issue, unless I'm missing something. Shadows right now use double sabres, what mechanism stops them from equipping an off-hand? Even if you were right all it would require is coding for two-handed weapons using both hands and preventing off-hand use. as we see in every other game which involves a choice of single one-handed weapon, dual wielding, two-handed weapons. Games further back than Never-winter Nights had this.

 

I think the question raised here is why are classes based around such weapons? You're right that people would pick the most effective for their build but should that prevent people who don't mind losing a small amount of damge in exchange for a faster attack? What difference would it make if the Sentinel was able to use a dualblade, slower stronger attacks? Big whoop, that should be player choice. Yes weapons have their own base stats but I don't see how it would effect balance dramatically given that most skills have a specific base damage already. Doesn't that just represent yet another weakness in Swtor, one that will lessen the game for many people and should therefor be addressed, that people have little to no room to maneouver or customise play-style? It's especially bizarre given that the parent game had these features.

The class skills, talents and main stats already serve to control the balance, I don' t think allowing light-sabre choices would have any significant effect on this. Melee weapon, ranged weapon or barehands should only ever be the requirement for skills which already dictate damge, cast speed etc. Non-jedi not having access to light-sabres makes sense. Jedi not being able to use blasters to stab someone, makes sense.

Jedi not having a choice of stabbing someone with a long stabby thing, a short stabby thing or two short stabby things, does not make sense.

[Kitru]

For example the guardian having a single sabre and using a shield/focus, this goes straight out of the window as shadows also choose a double light sabre (two handed weapon) with shield/focus.

 

Guardians don't "choose" to use a single saber and shield/focus. That's all they *can* use (aside from vibroswords, which are identical except for the appearance). Shadows don't "choose" DBLS. It's what they're designed to use: they're balanced around it and they have abilities that require it. It's just like Commandos with Autocannons and Snipers with Sniper Rifles. It's not a choice you make within the class. It's a choice the class makes for you.

 

I also don't believe that mixing off-hand weapons with double sabre is an issue, unless I'm missing something. Shadows right now use double sabres, what mechanism stops them from equipping an off-hand?

 

The mechanism that stops Shadows from using a saber in the offhand is the exclusion of the ability to use sabers in the offhand (it would probably generate some funky animation issues, but I don't think the game would do anything to explicitly prevent that). Furthermore, even if it *were* added, it would necessitate the inclusion of an entire slew of new animations specific to DBLS + OHSaber. That, right away, negates the "easy to include" factor people often spout, not to mention that all of the mechanical advantages inherent in DBLS and OHSaber would force pretty much *every* DPS to start using that specific combination or else accept substandard DPS.

 

Even if you were right all it would require is coding for two-handed weapons using both hands and preventing off-hand use. as we see in every other game which involves a choice of single one-handed weapon, dual wielding, two-handed weapons. Games further back than Never-winter Nights had this.

 

What you have to realize is that there *are* no two-handed weapons in TOR. There are only Mainhand and Offhand weapons. As far as the game is concerned, DBLS is a "single-handed" weapon: it takes up a single slot (the main hand slot). It is only the animations that make it look like a 2 handed weapon. This is why you can use a Shield and a DBLS at the same time: DBLS is a mainhand weapon and the shield is an offhand "weapon". For all intents and purposes, *everyone* is constantly dual-wielding. The differences simply exist in that some specific types of mainhand and offhand weapons are designed better than others. To balance things out, because the classes are designed with specific gear loadouts, the classes with basic loadouts have better abilities, from a purely mechanical standpoint, to make up for it.

 

should that prevent people who don't mind losing a small amount of damge in exchange for a faster attack?

 

I'm going to stop you here to point out that you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Every weapon in the *entire game* has the exact same attack speed. The developers removed it because, honestly, it's a relatively pointless mechanic assuming you're trying for a balanced game (just look at what WoW has done over its lifetime with weapon speeds; they're all functionally standardized to either have a specific MH or OH attack speed; the variation in attack speeds means almost nothing any more because, when they were factored, it made some weapons that were intended to be mediocre actually *way* stronger than they were supposed to be). TOR doesn't even have the passive attacks that WoW (and pretty much every other game with weapon attack speeds) use. The only way for attack speed to be factored in would be to have your loadout change the length of the GCD and increase or decrease ability costs and resource regeneration rates to compensate (because, otherwise, the game would specifically favor one over the other). It's pointlessly complex for a negligible benefit.

 

The class skills, talents and main stats already serve to control the balance, I don' t think allowing light-sabre choices would have any significant effect on this.

 

The fact that you honestly believe this indicates exactly how little you understand about how TOR is balanced. The Guardian-exclusive weapon attacks are specifically balanced around the lower damage of the single saber + focus compared to dual sabers. Unless *every attack in the game* were provided with 3 distinct damage variants to account for all of the potential loadouts (basic MH + focus/gen; basic MH + OH; advanced MH + focus/gen; if you honestly think that DBLS + OH saber, Autocannon + blaster pistol, or Sniper Rifle + blaster pistol should be included that would necessitate a 4th be added), the classes wouldn't have the balance you're assuming would exist. The intended weapon selection and loadout of a class are intrinsically factored into the balance of the class. Even within the mirror classes, there are balance distinctions inherent in the different "balanced" loadouts: Mercs v. Commandos and Snipers v. Gunslingers; in both cases, the dual wielding class, even though they're fundamentally mathematically balanced (1.2 weapon damage v. 1.0 weapon damage +.2 weapon damage), has a marginal advantage thanks to actually getting greater use out of accuracy (since accuracy increases the contributions of OH beyond the point where it increases MH contribution).

 

It's simply wrong to state "well, it'll be balanced because the classes are already balanced even though we're gonna change all of the weapons!" because you're completely ignoring the fact that the weapon loadouts are a well defined part of the balance equation. You can't simply state "it'll be balanced" and use that as logic that it'll occur and that it will, for some reason, be easy. Making sure that specific classes and mechanics are balanced actually requires a substantial amount of work *especially* when you're suggesting a massive change to the fundamental mechanics of the game (having weapons alter GCD and other variables, allowing all classes to use all potential loadouts).

 

It's also important to note that the games that allow you to use massively different loadouts within a single class/spec (WoW is not one of these; classes are designed around using specific weapon loadouts with specific attack speeds based upon class and spec so, while WoW allows you to gear yourself like an idiot, it's not designed to do so, just like TOR was designed so that you wouldn't want to use a single saber as a Shadow) are also single player or campaign based and notoriously imbalanced. Providing the illusion of options by allowing people to specifically choose arbitrary options that will weaken them (like allowing a Sage to reduce its Force Power by 20% to get to use a DBLS or 2 sabers at once when they shouldn't *ever* be attacking something with their saber) is, just that, an illusion.

 

All you're suggesting is a massive change to everything specifically to change the "optimal" loadouts of every class out there. Based upon what you've suggested, tanks will all use a basic MH and a shield; DPS will all dual wield, and healers won't experience any difference at all. What you're suggesting is not new options (even though you probably think that's what it is); you're suggesting that weapon specifications be assigned according to role. It's a *terrible* idea that isn't even well thought out and demands a massive amount of effort for what would amount to a massive decrease in real diversity.

[sarlaccbane]

Except that Shadows aren't assassins. They are keepers of secret knowledge and the internal police of the Jedi Order.

i wouldnt call it a a keeper of knowledge. sages keep the knowledge we obtain it through appreciation of the dark sides better traits(knowledge,ect). and i agree at first double bladed is cool but it got old and u need double bladed for our main backstab stealth move.

[Joajoa]

I used to run around with a single Vibrosword on my shadow .I would even go in the under 49 warzones with it.I think I actually went from level 20ish to level 50 using a Vibrosword.

 

No way I could do it in a 50 warzone,or an OPS.(It's hard enough to compete with a DBL lightsaber,a Vibrosword pretty much nerfs you).I might try it if every other piece of gear I had was Warhero(augmented),which I don't have.

 

I know from experience you can do just fine with a Vibrosword or single saber PVE if you're Tank/Kinetic.And in the 49 and under warzone,where the gap in gear isn't all that great,you can also do ok if you're Tank/Kinetic.The stats with a Vibrosword/single saber are pretty bad,but they tend to swing faster,which means your Combat self heal procs a lot more often.You lose damage,but you do self heal more.

 

You can just spam Double Strike twice then Project,and the lack of a DBL Saber won't be noticed.And it is funny when the other team confuses you for a Sage.I would put Guard on the real Sage,and opposing players would focus fire on me,while the real Sage healed me.But ,yes,the damage output is pretty bad.

[wolfyrik]

I used to run around with a single Vibrosword on my shadow .I would even go in the under 49 warzones with it.I think I actually went from level 20ish to level 50 using a Vibrosword.

 

No way I could do it in a 50 warzone,or an OPS.(It's hard enough to compete with a DBL lightsaber,a Vibrosword pretty much nerfs you).I might try it if every other piece of gear I had was Warhero(augmented),which I don't have.

 

I know from experience you can do just fine with a Vibrosword or single saber PVE if you're Tank/Kinetic.And in the 49 and under warzone,where the gap in gear isn't all that great,you can also do ok if you're Tank/Kinetic.The stats with a Vibrosword/single saber are pretty bad,but they tend to swing faster,which means your Combat self heal procs a lot more often.You lose damage,but you do self heal more.

 

You can just spam Double Strike twice then Project,and the lack of a DBL Saber won't be noticed.And it is funny when the other team confuses you for a Sage.I would put Guard on the real Sage,and opposing players would focus fire on me,while the real Sage healed me.But ,yes,the damage output is pretty bad.

 

That's actually a really interesting, are enough of the skills not denedent on double-sabre or are they working with regular sabre regardless?

[Joajoa]

The most important skills that need a Double-saber are Force Breach,Shadow Strike and Cyclone Strike(at least i think it's called Cyclone Strike).You need a Double-saber to cast your Techniques,but once they're up you can switch to a Vibrosword(or electro-staff).I know the damage proc from Combat Technique goes off regardless of what weapon you use.

 

In Kinetic,Force Breach damage isn't all that great,and you can easily substitute Slow Time for it in your rotation.Cyclone Strike isn't very efficient in terms of damage per Force use,so it's no great loss either.

 

The loss of Shadow Strike does hurt,because it is does a good bit of damage and does have high crit damage.But it's Force cost is pretty high,and it's easy to substitute two Double Strikes for the same Force cost of one Shadow Strike.It takes longer to do the same damage (because you have to swing twice instead of once) and you won't get the high critical damage that Shadow Strike brings,but your are swinging more often so your Combat self-heal procs more often.

 

You need to use a Double-saber in Infiltration or Balance,because those builds rely on Force Breach.But in Kinetic it can be possible,though there is no benefit whatsoever other than cosmetic.And it's no good in 50 warzones,since in wz's you need the burst damage that Shadow Strike gives.

 

I did it in PVE and under 49 WZ's because Double-sabers were annoying me.

[Rabenschwinge]

The most important skills that need a Double-saber are Force Breach,Shadow Strike and Cyclone Strike

 

Cyclone Slash is a Jedi Knight ability. I don't know a Cyclone Strike.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Rabenschwinge

[Gavin_Kelvar]

The problem with this is that the weapon a class uses is explicitly factored in to the balance status of the class: DBLS have 20% higher base weapon damage than regular sabers and no downside (a training cost is not a "downside"). There is also no specific mechanical mechanism that prevents the use of an offhand saber to go along with a DBLS, so, unless the developers were to add one, everyone and their cousin would be running around with a DBLS mainhand and a single saber offhand (since that's actually how you'd manage the higher DPS).

 

Relatively easy, just use the KOTOR system of equipping it occupies both hands. Boost the non-direct damage stats to account for the loss of a slot space. Like in KOTOR DBLS and dual wield would grant comparable damage output increases compared to single lightsaber. Likewise single sabers would grant greater accuracy and similar stat bonuses (like critical hit chance) to compensate for the lower base damage. My assumption was that such a thing would be implemented if the change was made.

 

In addition, you'd also run into the potential problem of not being able to tell which class was which without directly looking at the listed class. As it is now, it's pretty easy (single saber and robe = sage; singe saber and heavy armor = guardian; double saber = shadow; 2 sabers = sentinel).

 

I guess for PvP that's a problem and being a PvE exclusively player I hadn't thought of that. I'm not sure how important that sort of easy identification of an enemy player is though.

 

The "simple" solution of simply reusing animations from existing attacks also makes everything bland and boring (everyone with a single saber would have the same animations regardless of class, everyone with a DBLS would have the same animations regardless of class, etc.) and still requires a hefty amount of work (since it would require finding appropriate and discretely separate animations for each variation within a class so that there aren't 2 abilities with the same animation coupled with making the timing appropriate for each animation variation).

 

True, but adding a whole variety of additional animations would take even more time. I was trying to be realistic in my suggestion (and adding new animations for the sake of variety is definitely not realistic). I don't see why it would be a problem anyway since there isn't that much variety in forms anyway (to add some variety you could tie specific animations to specific abilities, thus Clairvoyant Strike and Double Strike would retain different animations).

 

Furthermore, most of the attacks for specific classes are designed around being used with specific weapons: Guardian weapon attacks are designed to hit harder, individually, than Sentinel attacks are, specifically because Guardians use a single saber and a focus/shield as opposed to 2 weapons. There are fundamental balance factors behind the weapon types used by specific classes that would have to be readdressed in order to allow for everyone to use different types of weapons, not to mention the fact that there would have to be *something* done to make sure that people still want to use single sabers and foci rather than going with the obviously superior options.

 

You could, in theory, balance by making foci/shields confer additional bonuses. For example, have DBLS/dual wield give a shield like defense chance (if in a tanking stance) but make it have a lower defense chance than a shield. So you choose either increased damage output over slightly lower defense, or greater defense over lower damage out put. Depending on your play style it could work either way. Make foci more Force power specific (when in DPS/healer stances). So you choose between slightly higher melee or Force power damage output. Just rough examples but I hope you get the general idea.

 

Inevitably yes some roles/advanced class trees may favor certain weapon combos over others. It is probably impossible to achieve such a perfect state of balance where no class favors one weapon combo over another. But by giving people the option, and importantly not forcing weapon choices on players in order to even use specific abilities, each class could find a way to utilize all weapon types with relatively similar effectiveness.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Dalnar]

Considering they added adaptive armors, the "you must look iconic" argument is fail. There is kinda no reason to restrict the classes by individual saber types.

 

At minimum, they should remove the ds requirement from force breech.

 

But much better would be a simple vanity toggle to ignite only one side of the saber. Who cares about the numbers, its mostly cosmetic issue mostly. Hiding one side of the saber should not be biggie.

 

Make it legacy unlock 20+ or whatever.