A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[nringles]

Battle-master operative point of view, we need nerfs and these are the things I can abuse.

 

Hidden Strike needs a CD, things I can abuse with hidden strike; I can open on you for 3-5k (crits are to high non crits are fine) depending on armor then cloaking screen and re-open for another 3-5k w/ crit plus acid blade dot most people are to low at that point to fight back, I can do this in the middle of your team in what looks like 1 GCD, no one can react to that.

 

Hidden Strike needs a CD, I can go into a 3v1 where they have 1 or more weakened low health team mates open with HS on low health target and score a kill before team can react and infiltrate back into stealth and open on next low health target with HS score kill before other team mates put me in combat and re-stealth open again with HS. I DO THIS A LOT. I am highly skilled at pvp and other high skill players can't defend against this because they have no chance to react.

 

HS-dead player-infiltrate-HS-dead player-Stealth-HS

 

Low Health targets are to vulnerable to HS. There is no defending against an operative who opens from stealth when you are already low, low health targets should be an easy kill for anyone who finds them, not a free one.

 

Things I think need to be changed and things I think should stay the same:

 

Give Hidden Strike a CD doesn't need to be long 6 secs would make a world of difference.

 

Take away Hidden strikes high crit multiplier when attacking targets below 90% Health, as to gimp our ability to jump from target to target when there are players at low health but keeping our ability to open on players when a fight starts, not shark around collecting free kills after the fights over.

 

The Knockdown is fine, jarring strike FILLS THE RESOLVE BAR, after we open on a fresh high health target the cc is over for 8? seconds, take that free un-cc'able time to realize how fragile operatives are. I would go so far as to be fine with our knockdown only effecting targets above 90%, wouldn't that be something, a fair damaging opener that doesn't knockdown if have already been fighting. maybe something in that area make it a 1.5 when target is below 90%.

 

20% base dmg reduction on Hidden Strike will be fine FOR NOW (after players get their gear it will be a 3 second knockdown not much else), from experience my Hidden Strike with 640 expertise is just breaking Sage/Sorc shield of equal gear, which then CC me after the shield is broken, so I cc sorc as I open sorc CC's me and any others in the area just by having shield on then its any mans fight. PRO TIP in a 1v1 the Sorc should be the winner.

 

1.5 second knockdown is not needed and when/if this change goes live will not be spec'ed into. Our opener does to much dmg RATE NOW (people are gearing) so a 20% nerf to HS and add in a CD so Operatives can't double tap HS back to back will allow players to be much healthy after an opener.

 

50% armor pen down to 30% is not needed, this will hurt PvE operatives and hurt operative abilities to do anything to all armor types in PvP. Operatives are 90% kinetic dmg acid blade dot and corrosive dart are the only non-kinetic things you will see. Defensive mitigation CD's on assassins/shadows, knights/warriors could stand to get some attention in mitigating operative tech "melee" attacks.

 

Thats it, I don't like the changes, they seem knee jerk, heavy handed and not aimed at fixing the real issues that are making operatives OP. I agree that operative opener dmg is to high on all targets and our sustained dmg is to hard to mitigate with defensive CDs.

 

I will trade operative nerfs for auto-facing in pvp or positional attacks or cutting the speed of backpedaling in half.

 

quote me if you are feeling nifty about my suggestions, I willl still be out playing most of you after my nerf . Keep standing in my orbital and keep spamming grav round even after I interupt and keep immune'ing my back stab with backpedal and auto-facing. I will find a way to beat you without needing to come to the forum.

 

PST me if you have anything to add say. Whats that poem about the German's coming for everyone but you don't say anything because they are not coming for you...

Edited January 25, 2012 by nringles

[Lushbits]

Stay out of the discussion if you are a biased Operative.

 

Not sure if serious... Stay out of the thread about operatives if you are an operative..? You just keep getting smarter and smarter.

[Ghingis]

Not sure if serious... Stay out of the thread about operatives if you are an operative..? You just keep getting smarter and smarter.

 

Although I said BIASED Operative.

 

Since you are obviously blind to the overpowerdness of your class.

[Hydrott]

Oh and fyi.. you can argue it all you want, bioware still has the numbers and guess what they added up to?

 

Yes, Bioware sure does know how to add things up...........just look at the state Ilum is in.

[chungkuo]

 

Regardless of popular Myth - I am here to confirm for you that we cannot use a second Stun on you. If we can - then it IS a glitch, and shouldn't be considered when looking at class balance. Regardless, I promise you - we cannot do this legitimately, just like no other Class can do this legitimately. Other classes CAN do this - but these circumstances are well known Gltiches.

 

 

It looks like you spent a lot of time on this post and it is roughly 100x better than most of the stuff here, but this part here shows you don't know how stun or resolve work. Your short stun will not fill a resolve bar on its own. If you do a short stun to a player who already has his bar at 3/4 or so, it might do this (I have no idea how much your KO builds). But, you should always note the target's resolve level before you do any kind of stun.

 

A good player will never blow his CC breaker on a short stun (unless his resolve meter is full at that point, which usually, it won't be) unless there is some other situational reason to do so; like he needs to poke someone capping an objective. This is because he knows there is likely a bigger one coming after it that he will really want to break.

[Equitas_Vindex]

Does Heavy Armor do anything against a Sorcerer? No. It does absolutely nothing. Why? Because their (main) attacks bypass ALL armor. Yet you don't hear anyone complaining about that.

 

lol The hell we don't complain about it...

 

Look, this game and many of its competitors have made a stupid mistake in adding in all of these defensive skills like bubbles, disappear, etc.

 

What needs to happen is just have armor be armor. The heavier armor you wear, the less damage you do, and the inverse.

 

I mean, sure, some defensive skills and some armor penetration, etc. But this overly complicated system of providing defenses and escapes are just stupid and it causes a lot of these out-of-balance issues.

 

BW has to rescale Scrapper/Operative damage to many different things: its balance amongst its fellow classes, what it can do against armor, what it can do against bubbles, etc.

 

WTB straightforward PvP for heavensakes.

[halfhourofpower]

People cling to their overpowered class because they think everything is balanced and that they're just really, really good. Wrong.

[Raice]

It looks like you spent a lot of time on this post and it is roughly 100x better than most of the stuff here, but this part here shows you don't know how stun or resolve work. Your short stun will not fill a resolve bar on its own. If you do a short stun to a player who already has his bar at 3/4 or so, it might do this (I have no idea how much your KO builds). But, you should always note the target's resolve level before you do any kind of stun.

 

A good player will never blow his CC breaker on a short stun (unless his resolve meter is full at that point, which usually, it won't be) unless there is some other situational reason to do so; like he needs to poke someone capping an objective. This is because he knows there is likely a bigger one coming after it that he will really want to break.

 

Wrong.

 

KO is not technically a Stun - it's a Knock Back. Stuns produce 200 Points of Resolve for every second they can be active.

 

Knock Backs generate 400 points of Resolve for every second they can be active. What that means, is it goes by how much time the Ability CAN be applied. KO produces a 3s Knock Back which generates 1200 Resolve by itself. Once the Resolve hits 1000, it adds an additional +50% from whatever ability put it over 1000. Half of 1200 is 600 which takes it to 1800.

 

Once a player hits 1000 Resolve, they are automatically in Stun Immunity. They can be snared or rooted all day long, but they cannot be locked out of using abilities. Once it hits 1000, the Resolve ticks down by 100 every second until 0. Each second it ticks down - the player is Immune to ALL Stuns, Mezes, and Knock Backs. KO produces a 3s Knock Back, which produces 18s of Stun Immunity.

 

(Now, I'm gld you brought this up because I had to go back to my OP to check the notes I provided on this. I need to correct this in the OP as I have it listed as 2000 instead of 1800. This is a mistake on my part and I am just now catching it. My apologies. Unless I'm forgetting at THIS moment about some added modifier, I displayed this incorrectly. I CAN make typos, you know? I think with the amount of stuff I wrote, I'm allowed a few. Either way, the consequences stay the same. You are completely immune to any more Stuns. This is from anyone.)

 

I've been in situations when dealing with Sorcerers where I am stunned for about 4s, and then I am immediately Mezed for a longer duration (I'd say anywhere between 4-6s.) Whenever this occurs, I'm usually raging over the fact that I can't do anything, and planning my next move on the rare chance I survive. So I'm not really concerned about how long I am stun-locked (which is much longer than 3s I can assure you.) I'll let some Sorc who "reads this and has a heart attack over my stupidity", answer the facts about his own class for me. The best part is, the entire time this stun lock is going on, I am taking damage and am completely helpless.

 

I used to get really mad that this would happen, but now that I understand how it works, which is a testament to how powerful being informed, is. Now, I'm just mad that Sorcs can stun lock me (potentially) for around 8s before they fill up my Resolve with 2 different abilities before I am on Stun Immunity (by which time it hardly matters) and their attacks bypass all of my armor, and they're getting their panties in a wad over 3s? *Shrug*

 

I agree - a good player will NEVER use an Escape on a 1.5s stun. If the truth were known - if they could survive our burst (which is what the OP is trying to achieve by the way).... they wouldn't waste it on a 3s stun either lol. Check out the section where I wrote about KO again. It's near the top of the OP right under Flechette Round. Give it a read in case you didn't get the chance. I go into deep explanation about all of this.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Raice]

People cling to their overpowered class because they think everything is balanced and that they're just really, really good. Wrong.

 

Wrong. I don't think anything. I know - because I am informed.

 

Reducing our Critical Damage will produce better results for all parties involved. I've provided you with all the information you need to come to this conclusion.

 

I am FOR Nerfing Scrapper/Concealment. I am AGAINST breaking it.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Raice

[Manigma]

The worst thing isn't the nerf on the opening dmg or the knockdown it's the reduction in armour pen. for an ability at the top of our tree, it's basically our only way to get decent damage out of stealth and pretty much through the whole match. If we can't use an effective acid blade buff anymore there isn't much else we can do in our spec, we have less utility and no gap closers like other melee classes.

[maximusedward]

Let the nerf bat swing pl0x I feel no sympathy what so ever for those things, make them all turn into healers.

As a sniper Why should I work hard for my kills when this class gets to go invisibable and 1hko within 1 stun?

[Raice]

Let the nerf bat swing pl0x I feel no sympathy what so ever for those things, make them all turn into healers.

As a sniper Why should I work hard for my kills when this class gets to go invisibable and 1hko within 1 stun?

 

This is obviously the mature, reasonable argument everyone has been looking for.

 

By the way - it's spelled invisible.

 

What I do ain't easy. I make it look easy because - like any master of their trade - I'm good.

 

And it's possible that my Crit Damage is too high. Did you read the post I made about Scrapper/Concealment Critical Damage? Here, I'll provide you with the link.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

Thanks for the post!

[mdironman]

why the **** are they nerfing scoundrel when i cant do **** to tanks and scorces i go behind a sorce blow him down he just gets back up and puts on anouther shirld hardly any damage to him this is gonna make us useless we dont have a sprit or push or anything this is ******** (BS) scoundrels arnt the problem t here just annoying when effective

and thats why people are raging

[Bullsith]

This is obviously the mature, reasonable argument everyone has been looking for.

 

By the way - it's spelled invisible.

 

What I do ain't easy. I make it look easy because - like any master of their trade - I'm good.

 

And it's possible that my Crit Damage is too high. Did you read the post I made about Scrapper/Concealment Critical Damage? Here, I'll provide you with the link.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

Thanks for the post!

 

You are talking to the wall buddy. Ops aren't getting any shoulders to cry on these days. And TBH can you blame people? After the rolfstomping that has been going on, spiced up by 100000 threads about how OPs and Scoundrels were fine, can you really blame anyone for being happy over your misfortune.

[Raice]

why the **** are they nerfing scoundrel when i cant do **** to tanks and scorces i go behind a sorce blow him down he just gets back up and puts on anouther shirld hardly any damage to him this is gonna make us useless we dont have a sprit or push or anything this is ******** (BS) scoundrels arnt the problem t here just annoying when effective

and thats why people are raging

 

First - stay calm.

 

Arguing against rage arguments while raging doesn't produce results. You don't have to get mad when the facts have been exposed.

[mdironman]

and tanks i do less then 20% damage to there health when i bust everything off and when a sorce healer is there (one of the most popular classes) IM USELESS AND UR GONNA ADD TO THIS there making the most popular classes more powerfull then the lesser bs and a half RAGE

[mdironman]

First - stay calm.

 

Arguing against rage arguments while raging doesn't produce results. You don't have to get mad when the facts have been exposed.

 

i didnt spend the time reading the whole thing it i just submitted what i think, the scoundrle class is ment to bwe annoying and people dont remeber when they drop us at least give us a push back or somthjing

Edited January 26, 2012 by mdironman

[Raice]

You are talking to the wall buddy. Ops aren't getting any shoulders to cry on these days. And TBH can you blame people? After the rolfstomping that has been going on, spiced up by 100000 threads about how OPs and Scoundrels were fine, can you really blame anyone for being happy over your misfortune.

 

We don't need a shoulder to cry on. The facts work in our favor. Even if 1.11 goes Live - we were right. I'm just merely exposing biased arguments that aren't substantiated with facts.

 

 

Addition::

 

And just so we're clear - I'm not being a jerk when I say that. I understand completely why people are raging. I went through it too. But we have to hold ourselves to higher expectations. There is a time to rage - there is a time to discuss the issues.

 

This thread is about discussing the issues.

 

Thanks for your post!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Raice

[Kelticfury]

Actually i did. Writing wall of text doesn't automatically make content of the text more valuable. You could have spared a lot of time by just writing two symbols - "qq".

 

jebus dude, did an operative kill your mom or something? To try and reduce what he posted into a simple QQ is ludicrous.

[Raice]

i didnt spend the time reading it i just submitted what i think

 

Well - the good news is - you didn't have to read it. The facts work for themselves. And either way, I don't want rage convolution in this thread. I'm playing devil's advocate toward all parties on that one. Whatever your argument - stay calm.

 

And - you should read it so you can be informed about why you're mad. Here's the link:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

[Seyyal]

why the **** are they nerfing scoundrel when i cant do **** to tanks and scorces i go behind a sorce blow him down he just gets back up and puts on anouther shirld hardly any damage to him this is gonna make us useless we dont have a sprit or push or anything this is ******** (BS) scoundrels arnt the problem t here just annoying when effective

and thats why people are raging

 

thats because sorcs have more dmg blocking abilities than even tanks. its retarded i know

[Raice]

lol The hell we don't complain about it...

 

Look, this game and many of its competitors have made a stupid mistake in adding in all of these defensive skills like bubbles, disappear, etc.

 

What needs to happen is just have armor be armor. The heavier armor you wear, the less damage you do, and the inverse.

 

I mean, sure, some defensive skills and some armor penetration, etc. But this overly complicated system of providing defenses and escapes are just stupid and it causes a lot of these out-of-balance issues.

 

BW has to rescale Scrapper/Operative damage to many different things: its balance amongst its fellow classes, what it can do against armor, what it can do against bubbles, etc.

 

WTB straightforward PvP for heavensakes.

 

What needs to happen and what is going to happen, are two different things completely.

 

What NEEDS to happen is The Better Solution. What is going to happen? A nerf.

 

While I agree with your notion about armor being armor (to some extent) - that is not a very realistic goal for anyone to argue. That would require a complete redesign of the game. That's SWG NGE all over again. No company is going to be that stupid with another Star Wars MMO, and even if they could be - LucasArts simply won't allow it. Moreover, we should hope that NO MMO will ever do it again.

 

Let's focus on the plausible. If it is plausible for the community to demand a solution to a problem - then it is plausible that the community demand a BETTER solution.

 

That's what this thread is all about, friend!

[Raice]

Just so we are all aware:

 

As of this writing, this essay has garnered the attention of 33 pages worth of feedback. Whether The Better Solution is correct or not - it got people to thinking about this issue, differently.

 

Mission Accomplished

 

Thank you to everyone who is supporting your Class. Thank you to everyone who is supporting OUR Class, and hopefully one day, YOUR Class. Thank you to everyone who complained that OUR Class needed a Nerf. Without you - we never would have seen the REAL issues.

 

Now... let's go the extra mile...

[maximusedward]

YEP, time to L2P now your class can get on the high horse and claim that it takes skills to play a OPS just like the snipers.

Instead of going invisibable and killing people within 4 sec now you have to actually fight them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by maximusedward

[Cottyuk]

A very good read, thanks for taking the time to write it. As I said in my bug report to the developers, not only is it an unfair fight, it's not even a fight. I die before I can get up. A nerf was definitely needed.

 

On a similar note, being able to stealth whilst in combat to get away from a fight is just plain silly. A general comment aimed at classes that can do this.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Cottyuk