Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)

[Cupcakesforsatan]

Nox, really IS the best. Nothing else needs to be said.

[Codedrago]

This has been done far too many times and there are far too many variables to consider, but generally:

 

Nox is far too strong with the force for the wrath to be able to cope with. Wrath's force abilities are average at best. Equally, the Wrath would make mincemeat of Nox in a lightsaber fight. Much like Thanaton, Nox would be able to ragdoll the Wrath, put them through several walls and generally deep fry them with lightning and the wrath would be utterly helpless. If, and that's a big if, the Wrath by some slim chance managed to get into melee range of Nox the Wrath insta wins.

 

TL;DR: Sorcerer Nox beats wrath, Wrath (probably) beats Assasain Nox (if he/she/it is lucky).

 

Yes, but from what I see. Nox is neither as experienced or battle-wise as the Wrath, which I think gives the Wrath an extreme advantage. I'd say Nox is like Vaylin, extremly powerful, but uncontrolable. While the Wrath is like Senya not as strong in the force, but has a good enough head to find a way around the power gap.

[adormitul]

Do you all remember how we defeated Baras not trough our skills with the lightsaber but trough endurance basically we took everything he trowed at us until he remained without juice and the we killed him. Why can't the Wrath do the same to Darth Nox.

[Zbljuv]

People keep talking up Darth Nox as some sort of amazing force user and call Wrath "average"(which is just ridicules) but thing is his canon story feats just dont support that. Nox spends most of his story getting ragdolled by B tier Sith Lords and Z tier force ghosts. First impressive opponent Nox beats is a Jedi Master on Aldeeran meanwhile Wrath beats a Jedi Knight on Balmorra, and a legendary master on Tattooine planets that come before Aldeeran. And the thing is everything Wrath does he does without any "gimmicks". No force rituals or ghosts, no being the chosen one, no special weapons he just does it by being better then all of his opponents. He beats several legendary Jedi Masters, Darths and even the Voice of the Emperor the most powerful force user in the known universe by his own skill and power alone. And if we go by cutscenes he does it all almost effortlessly without ever getting hit(expansions dont count since its the same story for everyone). He doesnt need force ghosts he is strong enough without them.

[MadDutchman]

People keep talking up Darth Nox as some sort of amazing force user and call Wrath "average"(which is just ridicules) but thing is his canon story feats just dont support that. Nox spends most of his story getting ragdolled by B tier Sith Lords and Z tier force ghosts. First impressive opponent Nox beats is a Jedi Master on Aldeeran meanwhile Wrath beats a Jedi Knight on Balmorra, and a legendary master on Tattooine planets that come before Aldeeran. And the thing is everything Wrath does he does without any "gimmicks". No force rituals or ghosts, no being the chosen one, no special weapons he just does it by being better then all of his opponents. He beats several legendary Jedi Masters, Darths and even the Voice of the Emperor the most powerful force user in the known universe by his own skill and power alone. And if we go by cutscenes he does it all almost effortlessly without ever getting hit(expansions dont count since its the same story for everyone). He doesnt need force ghosts he is strong enough without them.

 

I would hardly call Thanaton "B tier" and Khem remarks that "Even the great Tulok Hord didn't tangle with spirits lightly" (paraphrased), so calling force ghosts "Z tier" is simply laughable.

 

Nox beats a Sith Lord on Nar Shaddaa while his/her connection to the Force is severed/severely drained. Wrath beats up an old man in the desert who probably hasn't fought in decades.

 

Whether you use "gimmicks" or not is irrelevant. Nox has the gimmicks, so is going to use them to full advantage.

[adormitul]

I would hardly call Thanaton "B tier" and Khem remarks that "Even the great Tulok Hord didn't tangle with spirits lightly" (paraphrased), so calling force ghosts "Z tier" is simply laughable.

 

Nox beats a Sith Lord on Nar Shaddaa while his/her connection to the Force is severed/severely drained. Wrath beats up an old man in the desert who probably hasn't fought in decades.

 

Whether you use "gimmicks" or not is irrelevant. Nox has the gimmicks, so is going to use them to full advantage.

 

The Wrath also defeated a sith lord on Nar Shadaa who was way more powerful that a average one how I know that because he finished the best republic strike team at that time in seconds. While the sith lord Nox fought needed a artifact to drain the power of his opponent to have a chance. He still did not had one.

Edited July 18, 2016 by adormitul

[MayhemofChaonus]

Using Palpatine as an example of an Inquisitor in this fight is like using The God Emperor of Man as an example of a Space Marine or The Lich King as an example of what the Lich King's right hand would be like. It's preposterous, Palpatine is so far above the Sith Emperor let alone Nox that I can't believe you're serious.

 

hahahahahaha! O wait.. you're serious...let me laugh harder! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[adormitul]

hahahahahaha! O wait.. you're serious...let me laugh harder! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

I remember a vs video between Palpatine and Vitiate and the result was Palpatine will win because its his power and not stolen power without explaining why stolen power is weaker then natural power. It is still power it does not matter where it comes from it matters how you use it and both used it to finish entire planets of life. Both are gods in the force be it because of their natural power or because of stolen power.

[Nazgren]

Everyone seems to be comparing Thanaton and Baras, saying that Nox is weak because he needed spirits to beat the mediocre Thanaton and that Baras was a long, gruelling test of strength, abilities and endurance that showcases how good the wrath really is. Neither could be any further from the truth.

 

Lets look at Thanaton. He is the head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge. This Sphere involves gathering ancient Sith artefacts and knowledge. This means that he will be better versed in the ways of the force then any other member of the Dark Council, for that is his job, and he is very good at it. This is shown by him knowing the Star Wars equivalent of Avada Kedabra. With a flick of his wrists he instantly kills Nox, without even needing to break Nox's Force Barrier. The fact that Thanaton is able to do this demonstrates an extremely high force potential and knowledge of the force. No other force user that we have seen can do this, needing to rely on lightning or force choke. For this reason i dont think it fair to say that Thanaton is weak and does not deserve to be on the Dark Council. As for Nox, He DID NOT need the spirits to kill Thanaton. Nox does not use the spirits until right at the very end. Even before then Nox easily swats away Thanatons lightning with ease, until Thanaton uses a force ability that is quite frankly far beyond anything we have seen in SWTOR. This is the only thing that Nox uses the spirits for, to break out of that. After this, the spirits recede and we go back to Nox, who then with a single hand easily holds back Thanaton and brings him to his knees and forces him to bow to Nox's power.

 

Now lets look at Baras. What have we ACTUALLY seen Baras do? Nothing. Baras is a Sith that relies on working in the backgrounds and shadows, using spies, political intrigue, information and blackmail to get what he wants (Think a really Evil Lord Varys from GoT, they even have the same build) and relying on multiple apprentices to achieve what he cannot, killing people in combat. I would go so far as to say that Baras goes against everything that a Sith should be. He tries to lie and trick his way to supreme power, instead of taking it by force for himself. When Thanaton fights the Inquisitor he brings his entire power base to the galactic stage and declares all out war on Nox. Baras plays dirty and tries to kill the Wrath in a cave in. If Baras had any meaningful level of fighting prowess why not just kill the wrath himself and leave no room for doubt that not only is the Wrath dead but that he is a competent fighter? Given that Baras is clearly more of an agent or spy then a fighter, i think it is a fantastic demonstration of how weak the Wrath actually is that He/She just cannot get Baras to stay down. It takes not once, not twice but three times before the weak Darth Baras cannot get up again. Nox brings potentially one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy to his knees in one go.

 

Given the above i don't think there can be any doubt that not only would Thanaton easily crush Baras in a fight, first and foremost with his "Force Avada Kedabra", but that by extension, Nox could easily beat the Wrath, with or without spirits. If I were Nox, the first thing i would do would be to go to Thanaton's filing cabinet and learn how to use said "Force Avada Kedabra". If Nox, one of the most naturally talented force users in Swtor plus the power of a Force Spirit were unable to withstand this ability then it goes without saying that the decidedly mediocre force power of the Wrath would not stand a chance. Time and again we have seen that in a fight between two jedi and sith, the one with the greatest mastery of the force almost always wins, ignoring Deus Ex Machina, luck, etc. The combined power of not only increased potency of force abilities such as lightning or telekinesis and that of increased force speed, able to boost even an old man to levels that by the incredibly arrogant Anakins own admission, would easily beat him in a fight.

[adormitul]

Really yes Baras on his own power is weaker then Thanaton I agree with it but he siphoned the power of a powerful spirit who was Kreia to become per the words of old Darth Vowrawn invincible and that was after we cut the power source he basically had so much power stored in him that he could not be defeated. Of course when that power is consumed then he is defeated. Yes Baras when the Wrath defeated him was stronger then Thanaton.

He basically did what Darth Nox does but using another ritual and from a more powerful sith lord then any Darth Nox had but not as strong as all of them.

[Codedrago]

Everyone seems to be comparing Thanaton and Baras, saying that Nox is weak because he needed spirits to beat the mediocre Thanaton and that Baras was a long, gruelling test of strength, abilities and endurance that showcases how good the wrath really is. Neither could be any further from the truth.

 

No, I say that Nox relies too much on just raw power to win. Unlike every other force user class, Nox hasn't had training. Hell, if it wasn't for gameplay purposes, Nox wouldn't be able to use any lightning when thy arrive on Korriban. My point is that from the mplicatons in the story, the Wrath is more skilled, experienced and smarter battlewise.

 

This is shown by him knowing the Star Wars equivalent of Avada Kedabra. With a flick of his wrists he instantly kills Nox, without even needing to break Nox's Force Barrier. The fact that Thanaton is able to do this demonstrates an extremely high force potential and knowledge of the force. No other force user that we have seen can do this, needing to rely on lightning or force choke.

Wait, you mean in Chapter 2? Thanaton didn't do that, that was Nox not being able to handle the power of the ghosts, which THanaton explains a scond alter when he is blasted away.

 

For this reason i dont think it fair to say that Thanaton is weak and does not deserve to be on the Dark Council. As for Nox, He DID NOT need the spirits to kill Thanaton. Nox does not use the spirits until right at the very end.

Look in the buff bars during the fight, you are using the ghosts.

 

Even before then Nox easily swats away Thanatons lightning with ease, until Thanaton uses a force ability that is quite frankly far beyond anything we have seen in SWTOR. This is the only thing that Nox uses the spirits for, to break out of that.

 

You mean force whirlwind, force storm and force lightning? We've used those moves.

 

After this, the spirits recede and we go back to Nox, who then with a single hand easily holds back Thanaton and brings him to his knees and forces him to bow to Nox's power.

 

Not that big of a feat when you've just finished kicking his ***.

 

 

Now lets look at Baras. What have we ACTUALLY seen Baras do? Nothing. Baras is a Sith that relies on working in the backgrounds and shadows, using spies, political intrigue, information and blackmail to get what he wants (Think a really Evil Lord Varys from GoT, they even have the same build) and relying on multiple apprentices to achieve what he cannot, killing people in combat.

So... Just what Thanaton does?

 

I would go so far as to say that Baras goes against everything that a Sith should be. He tries to lie and trick his way to supreme power, instead of taking it by force for himself. When Thanaton fights the Inquisitor he brings his entire power base to the galactic stage and declares all out war on Nox. Baras plays dirty and tries to kill the Wrath in a cave in.

Thanaton wanted to make the Inquisitor's failure a public humiliation as he viewed Nox as a stain on Sith tradition, Baras just wanted to Warrior out of the way.

 

If Baras had any meaningful level of fighting prowess why not just kill the wrath himself and leave no room for doubt that not only is the Wrath dead but that he is a competent fighter?

 

Because Baras was busy with scheming against the Emperor himself and making sure to keep the Dark Council from realising just what he was doing, plus not dealing with somthing yourself doesn't mean he's a bad fighter. Though if you want to bring that up, why didn't Thanaton go to kill the Inquisitor when he found out that they were alive? And lets not forget th fact that up until the Warrior gets to Correllia, Baras was draining power from the Dark Entity, which probably gave him a nice power boost before the Warrior freed her. We also know he can fight as many jedi masters atest to.

 

 

Given that Baras is clearly more of an agent or spy then a fighter, i think it is a fantastic demonstration of how weak the Wrath actually is that He/She just cannot get Baras to stay down. It takes not once, not twice but three times before the weak Darth Baras cannot get up again.

 

It didn't take the Wrath three times to kill Baras, it took one time. Cutscene intteruptions doesn't mean there were multiple fights.

 

Nox brings potentially one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy to his knees in one go.

 

And the Wrath made Baras cry for help.

[Zbljuv]

Thananton is seen as a joke to the Dark Council. They would have probably killed him anyway if Nox didnt. In fact it was Darth Mortis who killed him in the end.

[Codedrago]

Thananton is seen as a joke to the Dark Council. They would have probably killed him anyway if Nox didnt. In fact it was Darth Mortis who killed him in the end.

 

I wouldn't say that makes him weak, but the fact that they all turned on him so easy is telling.

[adormitul]

I wouldn't say that makes him weak, but the fact that they all turned on him so easy is telling.

 

On the other hand Darth Nox threatened all of them and they did not do a thing granted they might of been a little cautious after all he showed a great deal of power and he did managed to defeat a council member as a sith lord with no significant power base and well not being able to die it seems.

Well they are not stupid they know that being cautious with such a individual is for the best.

[Codedrago]

On the other hand Darth Nox threatened all of them and they did not do a thing granted they might of been a little cautious after all he showed a great deal of power and he did managed to defeat a council member as a sith lord with no significant power base and well not being able to die it seems.

Well they are not stupid they know that being cautious with such a individual is for the best.

 

Could you tell me the line and the reaction to the threat? I do not remember that, the only threat towards the Dark COuncil i remember is the Wrath's and Thanaton's.

[Rhyltran]

I say this every so many pages. Equal.

[adormitul]

Could you tell me the line and the reaction to the threat? I do not remember that, the only threat towards the Dark COuncil i remember is the Wrath's and Thanaton's.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z87E3ROnNgU this video will answer your question at 5:28.

[Rolodome]

On the other hand Darth Nox threatened all of them and they did not do a thing granted they might of been a little cautious after all he showed a great deal of power and he did managed to defeat a council member as a sith lord with no significant power base and well not being able to die it seems.

Well they are not stupid they know that being cautious with such a individual is for the best.

I dunno, maybe it varies based on the ending (I did full DS) but I got the impression that the Dark Council was kinda like, "Well, you beat him fair and square, so we'd be idiots not to give you a spot on the council." I mean, it's the sith way, really. I never got the sense that they were actually afraid. In fact, I got the sense throughout the entire SI storyline that you never quite get the respect a heroic main character should be getting, for all the feats you're accomplishing, and your character is kind of weak and reliant on ghosts and trickery when it comes down to it.

 

Whereas the SW is like a walking-talking-god from start to finish. Pure power fantasy, no one dares disrespect you, everybody falls to your blade like paper.

 

It seems to me like post-class-story, the SI is just assumed to be super powerful because of what they accomplished against Thanaton, but it's hard for me to take that as true power if you need the ghosts to be powerful. More believable for me would have been if you'd straight up siphoned power from the ghosts, in a way that permanently destroys them and gives you their power. The fact that they still exist as ghosts inside you, even at the end, goes against the idea of DS power rituals to me and I have to wonder if they did it just so they could put a LS option in.

[OldVengeance]

I thought it was pretty clear in the SI ending that if you threaten him, Darth Marr is not afraid of you at all.

[DARTHOSIRUS]

I reckon they are probably both close in power. In a duel one would not completely own the other. It would be a close fight, and the winner would probably need a few days in the kolto tank afterwards...

 

Nox has the raw force power, sorcery, and ghosts

 

Wrath has physical strength, mad saber skills, yet is still quite proficient in the force

 

I guess I would give the Wrath a slight edge since he was personally chosen by the Emperor, and the Emperor is no fool. Part of that Wrath's job description is to kill council members if needs be.

Edited July 19, 2016 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Codedrago]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z87E3ROnNgU this video will answer your question at 5:28.

 

Marr's response theree seemed to be more ''Yes, I'd like to see you try'' then anything else.

[adormitul]

Marr's response theree seemed to be more ''Yes, I'd like to see you try'' then anything else.

 

When Darth Zhorrid did something similar she was hurt badly quite badly. Yeah Darth Nox was more feared for them to try such a thing. They saw what he was capable of after all they are not on the council with no reason caution is something they all have.

[Codedrago]

When Darth Zhorrid did something similar she was hurt badly quite badly. Yeah Darth Nox was more feared for them to try such a thing. They saw what he was capable of after all they are not on the council with no reason caution is something they all have.

 

We don't know exactly what she said to them, just that she pissed them off. Plus, Zhorrid was probably viewed as much less worthy for that seat then Nox was, so they were more prone to punish disrespect. There's nthing to say that they were afraid (Hell, Ravage protests you getting the seat)

[adormitul]

We don't know exactly what she said to them, just that she pissed them off. Plus, Zhorrid was probably viewed as much less worthy for that seat then Nox was, so they were more prone to punish disrespect. There's nthing to say that they were afraid (Hell, Ravage protests you getting the seat)

 

She said I demand respect and they beat the hell out of her and we know this from her own words.

[OldVengeance]

The difference is Nox defeated a Dark Council member to take his spot. Zhorrid just sort of inherited to seat. That earns Nox a little more respect, but it doesn't mean they are all afraid of him or her.