Brosephiine's Guide to Being Patient with Game Devs

[halfhourofpower]

Didin't read any of this I just wanted to say I like your forum name.

[eGraced]

This thread keeps getting better!!

 

I have noticed a lot of people (not just in this thread) who love to point out that this is not the "WoW-Killer" or "MMO Messiah" or "Everything the movie was to me when I was a child."

 

I would say that if this was your expectation, of course the game did not meet it. Sometimes people get so caught up in the hype and their own expectations that nothing could possible measure up.

 

Please understand, this is not an attack post. I had my own expectations, and not all of them were met. The game does have bugs, like any game. BioWare is a name with a lot of credibility with a lot of gamers, and I know a lot of us (including myself) hoped for 'better'.

 

That being said. This game is not a 'WoW killer' or 'the MMO Gamechanger" it is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Nothing more and nothing less. And I'm very grateful for that. If the devs had focused on that, I don't think it would be a game I want to play. Hopefully it can survive on it's own merits, and not on the scale of how much competition it gives any other game.

 

TL/DR: No game, including TOR is going to be a "WoW-Killer." Pandas and Pokemon will do that. And that is a GOOD thing.

Edited January 31, 2012 by eGraced

[Brosephiine]

Didin't read any of this I just wanted to say I like your forum name.

 

lol Well thanks! :]

[Brosephiine]

This thread keeps getting better!!

 

I have noticed a lot of people (not just in this thread) who love to point out that this is not the "WoW-Killer" or "MMO Messiah" or "Everything the movie was to me when I was a child."

 

I would say that if this was your expectation, of course the game did not meet it. Sometimes people get so caught up in the hype and their own expectations that nothing could possible measure up.

 

Please understand, this is not an attack post. I had my own expectations, and not all of them were met. The game does have bugs, like any game. BioWare is a name with a lot of credibility with a lot of gamers, and I know a lot of us (including myself) hoped for 'better'.

 

That being said. This game is not a 'WoW killer' or 'the MMO Gamechanger" it is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Nothing more and nothing less. And I'm very grateful for that. If the devs had focused on that, I don't think it would be a game I want to play. Hopefully it can survive on it's own merits, and not on the scale of how much competition it gives any other game.

 

TL/DR: No game, including TOR is going to be a "WoW-Killer." Pandas and Pokemon will do that. And that is a GOOD thing.

 

I'm gonna reference Rift in this case. Every ad I saw for this game said, "You're not in Azeroth anymore." They specifically targeted WoW players and were probably trying to outdo Blizzard. I played the beta right before launch and they SERIOUSLY missed their mark lol. I knew people who went to play Rift at launch... They went right back to WoW after a few weeks. Rift fell severely short of killing WoW, it didn't even come close. I think a lot of people expected far more from it as it was being advertised pretty much as a WoW killer and the game just didn't have more.

[LadyNightArrow]

Here's a blog post from

Executive Producer, Rich Vogel:

Developer Blog: Busting Bugs and Fixing Exploits

 

It talks about how the devs "go about determining when to fix an issue in the live game, whether it is a bug or an exploit [and] how [they] balance [their] efforts when it comes to fixing bugs and developing new content." I believe that is the gist of it...

 

He also asks the community to, "Please remember, if we don’t respond publicly to a bug that does not mean we are not going to fix it."

 

Will this help back up what the guide is saying?

Edited January 31, 2012 by LadyNightArrow

[Brosephiine]

Here's a blog post from

Executive Producer, Rich Vogel:

Developer Blog: Busting Bugs and Fixing Exploits

 

It talks about how the devs "go about determining when to fix an issue in the live game, whether it is a bug or an exploit [and] how [they] balance [their] efforts when it comes to fixing bugs and developing new content." I believe that is the gist of it...

 

He also asks the community to, "Please remember, if we don’t respond publicly to a bug that does not mean we are not going to fix it."

 

Will this help back up what the guide is saying?

 

It might! I'll take a look at it a bit later, I'm trying to rush myself off Taris 'cause I hate this planet. xD But thanks for sharing, it might be useful. :]

[Brosephiine]

There! I've updated my second post to include highlights from the blog post LadyNightArrow posted. :] Good stuff!

[LadyNightArrow]

There! I've updated my second post to include highlights from the blog post LadyNightArrow posted. :] Good stuff!

 

 

Spiffy! Now, I wonder if we can get the devs or whoever is in charge of the forums to sticky this guide...

[Brosephiine]

 

Spiffy! Now, I wonder if we can get the devs or whoever is in charge of the forums to sticky this guide...

 

That would be awesome, but idk if they would. xD I'd settle for five stars lol.

[nostdurell]

what you wrote is very good, and one of only a few posts that actually mean anything. now, not to sound like a smarty pants, but could you put together something for people like me who never played an mmo before? i don't know what a dps, tank, sentinel is. i get healer. i'm a shadow. i know nothing about it. i know nothing of this mmo lingo. or if you know of a book that might help, that'll work too.

[Brosephiine]

what you wrote is very good, and one of only a few posts that actually mean anything. now, not to sound like a smarty pants, but could you put together something for people like me who never played an mmo before? i don't know what a dps, tank, sentinel is. i get healer. i'm a shadow. i know nothing about it. i know nothing of this mmo lingo. or if you know of a book that might help, that'll work too.

 

Hmm. I'll have to search around and see if I can find anything for you. If I can't, I'll see if I can put together a post for you. :] Thanks for the idea! People new to MMOs are generally just laughed at, which is kinda sad and fairly detrimental to everyone.

[pokstair]

I've heard that some of the early bugs in the game were effectively foreseen by closed beta testers and passed on to the developers, but such insights were effectively ignored. This of course easily leads to the comment that "the game was rushed for a Christmas release". I can't remember exactly which specific bugs these are, because I only absorb the important gist of certain posts into my memory .

 

Also, with regards to the section where you say that the sheer amount of people playing can cause bugs to appear: is it not common practise for multiplayer games in beta testing to attempt to "stress test" their servers to try and iron out such bugs? Although I have not participated in beta testing for MMO's, it seems like a logical thing to do.

 

Nonetheless it seems rather poor form to try and rush out a game in which serious bugs that can severely impact one's happiness with the game are still present (character responsiveness and animation-ability delay, for example). This in turn leads to over-worked CS teams, poor word-of-mouth reviews, etc, which may end up costing the company even more sales in the long run.

 

Although not exactly on topic, I would also like to express my continuing disbelief that the CS posters use droid avatars and names on the forums. Perhaps it is within the spirit of the Star Wars theme, but with the CS teams being lambasted on the forums over certain points such as their general slowness in response times, run-of-the-mill "we are aware of this issue, thanks and goodbye" replies, it's not hard to think that CS really lacks that human connection to the playerbase.

 

Would like to hear your comments, if any!

Edited February 1, 2012 by pokstair

[Brosephiine]

I've heard that some of the early bugs in the game were effectively foreseen by closed beta testers and passed on to the developers, but such insights were effectively ignored. This of course easily leads to the comment that "the game was rushed for a Christmas release". I can't remember exactly which specific bugs these are, because I only absorb the important gist of certain posts into my memory .

 

Also, with regards to the section where you say that the sheer amount of people playing can cause bugs to appear: is it not common practise for multiplayer games in beta testing to attempt to "stress test" their servers to try and iron out such bugs? Although I have not participated in beta testing for MMO's, it seems like a logical thing to do.

 

Nonetheless it seems rather poor form to try and rush out a game in which serious bugs that can severely impact one's happiness with the game are still present (character responsiveness and animation-ability delay, for example). This in turn leads to over-worked CS teams, poor word-of-mouth reviews, etc, which may end up costing the company even more sales in the long run.

 

Although not exactly on topic, I would also like to express my continuing disbelief that the CS posters use droid avatars and names on the forums. Perhaps it is within the spirit of the Star Wars theme, but with the CS teams being lambasted on the forums over certain points such as their general slowness in response times, run-of-the-mill "we are aware of this issue, thanks and goodbye" replies, it's not hard to think that CS really lacks that human connection to the playerbase.

 

Would like to hear your comments, if any!

 

Hmm, I know a lot of beta testers were asking for certain features and didn't get them upon launch, but I'm not sure about the bugs. :s I wasn't playing beta, I've only been playing for... about a month now? Just under I believe.

 

As far as stress testing goes, this is basically what beta tests do. But they're still smaller groups of players they don't come close to the actual number of people playing at launch. And if the game was rushed for Christmas release (which I've heard a lot, unfortunately) then some of those issues that presented themselves in beta may not have been taken care of. That could be why (from what I hear) Bioware wanted more time to work on the game and EA just wouldn't let them. I agree, it is very bad form, but I don't expect much more from EA tbh. :/ I love the Bioware name, but I hear bad things about EA even from people in the industry.

 

I've been fairly happy with their customer service, but I've mostly come across it in the form of forum moderators. I love how friendly and thorough they are! I haven't yet had to deal with any other sort of customer service, though I've heard it's pretty bad. Again, something to be expected from EA and it'll have to change quickly if they want to keep their supporters imo. I for one don't stand for poor customer service. If someone treats me like crap for any reason, I ask to speak to their manager or write a formal letter of complaint to the company about their customer service policies.

[Shiningriver]

what you wrote is very good, and one of only a few posts that actually mean anything. now, not to sound like a smarty pants, but could you put together something for people like me who never played an mmo before? i don't know what a dps, tank, sentinel is. i get healer. i'm a shadow. i know nothing about it. i know nothing of this mmo lingo. or if you know of a book that might help, that'll work too.

 

Hi there,

 

I found this out through google: http://starwarzone.net/index.html/_/news-and-announcements/abbreviations-and-terms-mmo-and-star-wars-r11

 

Hope this helps

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shiningriver

[Brosephiine]

I could only find vague guides. D:

 

Also, my Thranta just flew through a wall. o.o

[nostdurell]

that should help a lot. thank you.

[Brosephiine]

that should help a lot. thank you.

 

I'm glad someone could help you, good luck!

[Gimmemynameback]

Loved the thread, a ton of good stuff here and, as has been observed, many of those who SHOULD read it will never find it...unless I go and reference it in every rage post on the forums.

 

I didn't read the ENTIRE thread but I wanted to point out that what I've noticed while in the forums, on many of the rage threads especially, is the legitimate complaint about the canned 'we care and thanks for your moneh' response to issues. I DEFINITELY grasp how herculean a task it would be to respond to each thread personally but, I can't help but wonder (because I HATE CANNED, CORPORATE DOGS**T answers) how tough it would be to BE SURE that there is a meaningful, progressive response given to ongoing community concerns of particular import. Something above and beyond the recycled, randomly generated, mechanical, meaningless garbage that is the corporate 'thanks for your concern, we're gonna look into it eventually' response that is so typically given. I'M PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE. Please don't light me on fire. It just makes me sad to see ppl who have lodged their complaints intelligently then return to their post only to find the same response recycled anew, leading them to cancel (or say they cancelled) their account.

 

Has the industry really come so far only to find itself, or at least its community relations, running in place? The 'target audience' is much more intelligent and demanding about their expectation for interaction, with regard to in-game issues that affect their quality of play in particular, than it probably has ever been. I understand that promises unkept do more harm than those never spoken but, in the words of my Auntie: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but your silence breaks my heart".

 

Thanks for your time.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Gimmemynameback

[Ransom_BiC]

Loved the thread, a ton of good stuff here and, as has been observed, many of those who SHOULD read it will never find it...unless I go and reference it in every rage post on the forums.

 

I didn't read the ENTIRE thread but I wanted to point out that what I've noticed while in the forums, on many of the rage threads especially, is the legitimate complaint about the canned 'we care and thanks for your moneh' response to issues. I DEFINITELY grasp how herculean a task it would be to respond to each thread personally but, I can't help but wonder (because I HATE CANNED, CORPORATE DOGS**T answers) how tough it would be to BE SURE that there is a meaningful, progressive response given to ongoing community concerns of particular import. Something above and beyond the recycled, randomly generated, mechanical, meaningless garbage that is the corporate 'thanks for your concern, we're gonna look into it eventually' response that is so typically given. I'M PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE. Please don't light me on fire. It just makes me sad to see ppl who have lodged their complaints intelligently then return to their post only to find the same response recycled anew, leading them to cancel (or say they cancelled) their account.

 

Has the industry really come so far only to find itself, or at least its community relations, running in place? The 'target audience' is much more intelligent and demanding about their expectation for interaction, with regard to in-game issues that affect their quality of play in particular, than it probably has ever been. I understand that promises unkept do more harm than those never spoken but, in the words of my Auntie: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but your silence breaks my heart".

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Sometimes they give the canned response because they aren't ALLOWED to respond any other way.

 

Patience is so important. This game is BRAND SPANKING NEW. Sooo many of the rage-crew just don't seem to understand that new game is new. I was a part of the WoW release, and that crap was buggy and unfinished-- just like almost every other MMO out there.

 

I would love to see some of these kids deal with a sandbox MMO like Ultima Online. We made our own endgame. It's why you almost never see me freaking out when I get to end level and there isn't a lot to 'do'. Some of these folks have to be spoon-fed activities or it's not any fun.

 

I don't mind creating my own 'end-game' for now. There's plenty to do, experience and see in SWTOR without having 900 raids I have to attend every night.

[priest]

I've never had a problem with people voicing their opinions on what works/doesn't work in this game. What gets me are the people who just love to sit here all day, yelling that the game is broke and worthless...and paying their subscription to do it.

 

Thanks for your post...it should be required reading with a test involved before anyone is allowed to post on the forums.

[Ransom_BiC]

 

Thanks for your post...it should be required reading with a test involved before anyone is allowed to post on the forums.

 

...or a personality and IQ test...

[Brosephiine]

Loved the thread, a ton of good stuff here and, as has been observed, many of those who SHOULD read it will never find it...unless I go and reference it in every rage post on the forums.

 

I didn't read the ENTIRE thread but I wanted to point out that what I've noticed while in the forums, on many of the rage threads especially, is the legitimate complaint about the canned 'we care and thanks for your moneh' response to issues. I DEFINITELY grasp how herculean a task it would be to respond to each thread personally but, I can't help but wonder (because I HATE CANNED, CORPORATE DOGS**T answers) how tough it would be to BE SURE that there is a meaningful, progressive response given to ongoing community concerns of particular import. Something above and beyond the recycled, randomly generated, mechanical, meaningless garbage that is the corporate 'thanks for your concern, we're gonna look into it eventually' response that is so typically given. I'M PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE. Please don't light me on fire. It just makes me sad to see ppl who have lodged their complaints intelligently then return to their post only to find the same response recycled anew, leading them to cancel (or say they cancelled) their account.

 

Has the industry really come so far only to find itself, or at least its community relations, running in place? The 'target audience' is much more intelligent and demanding about their expectation for interaction, with regard to in-game issues that affect their quality of play in particular, than it probably has ever been. I understand that promises unkept do more harm than those never spoken but, in the words of my Auntie: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but your silence breaks my heart".

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Ransom pretty much said it all. :] Sometimes they just aren't allowed to go deeper into the issue other than to let you know they are aware of it and thank you for bringing it to their attention. I had the chance to speak to one of WoW's project managers once and interview him for a class after he did a Q/A session at The Art Institute. One of the questions asked was, "Do you read the forums?" His answer was yes, they have a team whose task is to go and sift through the forums to find legitimate problems that are posted. I don't know if Bioware does this or not, but they'd be remiss not to.

 

As for the insults posted in the thread, just ignore 'em guys. Or report 'em for rude comments. xD Edit: WOW they work fast when you report for rude/inflammatory posts. o.o

Edited February 2, 2012 by Brosephiine

[Brosephiine]

I've never had a problem with people voicing their opinions on what works/doesn't work in this game. What gets me are the people who just love to sit here all day, yelling that the game is broke and worthless...and paying their subscription to do it.

 

Thanks for your post...it should be required reading with a test involved before anyone is allowed to post on the forums.

 

Thanks. I don't mind people voicing their opinions either, but the constant, "We want this now" was driving me crazy. :s I was struggling to explain coherently why they can't do everything at once without making posts as long as the first few in this thread. xD Part of why I made the thread.

[Dabigbom]

An estimate number would be that of almost 200$ million dollars spent on making this product. Whether that's true or not, I really don't care.

 

I purchased a Bioware product in hopes of being honored to play an MMO that was done by the very same people who did Baldur's, KOTOR and ME. Now, I know that some argue 'bout this whole thing that's been going on in the past few weeks....however, I payed for this game. I've seen games with a tighter budget do much well. Yes, you've heard this a million times, "awww the game's broken, awwww there is no hope anymore, aaaaah doom and gloom", but this is a huge AAA MMORPG. I'm sorry, but they went with a very devious development cycle route that I can't endorse anymore. I just can't. I love Star Wars, but I can't support a product based off this IP, just because it is a part of said IP.

 

It's that simple. You know it. Like Corso Riggs, Bioware "had the tools and the talent" to pull this off without breaking a sweat. But now I'm looking at it and I don't know what to do anymore.....when you find yourself in a large mass of people screaming for blood, it's a bit hard to keep a...*sunglasses*....Cool Head. YEEEEAAAH!

[priest]

But now I'm looking at it and I don't know what to do anymore.....when you find yourself in a large mass of people screaming for blood, it's a bit hard to keep a...*sunglasses*....Cool Head. YEEEEAAAH!

 

You have two options:

 

1- give the company time to iron out the kinks. The grief I see out there has much to do with functions of the game that can be tweaked and ironed out with time...and not so much with the premise of the game.

 

2- ragequit.