a question for some of you 'MMO All-Stars'

[Pink_Saber]

... are you serious? What difference does it make if I have to press 1, 2, 3 for my abilities or 1, 1, 1? I'm still pressing buttons the same amount of times. Once I understand how to play my character I can make my bindings as contrived or as simple as I want and it will do nothing to trivialize the content.

 

Difficult comes from game content, not the UI.

 

Seriously? You can't see the difference between having to consciously decide which of three abilities to use, and just mashing a button three times?

 

If you can't, I doubt I'll be able to explain the difference, but it's a huge one.

 

The game should never decide for you which ability is the best to use at any given time. All decisions should be made by the player. Otherwise, yes, content is the only thing that determines difficulty. The player's level of skill stops being a factor, and that's no way to design a game.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[Yfelsung]

... are you serious? What difference does it make if I have to press 1, 2, 3 for my abilities or 1, 1, 1? I'm still pressing buttons the same amount of times. Once I understand how to play my character I can make my bindings as contrived or as simple as I want and it will do nothing to trivialize the content.

 

Difficult comes from game content, not the UI.

 

A cast sequence macro is fine.

 

A macro that can set up your combos for you, or change rotation based on a debuff, or other such more complex ideas is just playing the game for you.

 

Basically macros should avoid if/then statements.

[DirtyDozen]

... are you serious? What difference does it make if I have to press 1, 2, 3 for my abilities or 1, 1, 1? I'm still pressing buttons the same amount of times. Once I understand how to play my character I can make my bindings as contrived or as simple as I want and it will do nothing to trivialize the content.

 

Difficult comes from game content, not the UI.

 

That's the same argument always used. 1,2,3 vs. 1,1 1. Without conditional macros you have to PAY ATTENTION to your cooldowns. With it you could get one of those wooden birds that bob and peck to do it for you.

[BadgeredMushroom]

Seriously? You can't see the difference between having to consciously decide which of three abilities to use, and just mashing a button three times?

 

If you can't, I doubt I'll be able to explain the difference, but it's a huge one.

 

The game should never decide for you which ability is the best to use at any given time. All decisions should be made by the player.

 

I consciously decided to order them in the same way that I would have used them even without macros, as I currently do now. It does absolutely nothing to change the difficulty of the game. I am still aware of my cooldowns and save my item-based cooldowns for when the cooldown in the macro is up if I want to burst, or space them out of I want to keep an increased output of DPS (or defenses) over the course of several minutes.

 

You are taking a molehill and turning it into a mountain.

[Pink_Saber]

I consciously decided to order them in the same way that I would have used them even without macros, as I currently do now.

 

Then you weren't paying attention to what was being discussed, which was not the "castsequence" type of macro. I was very specifically talking about conditional macros as described in the post I replied to (and quoted). That post was not talking about your kind of macro at all, but conditional ones that decide which ability to use based on a priority, and whether they're on cooldown or not.

 

Maybe you haven't played Rift, or used their macro system, but it does not even support the kind of macro you're describing.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[JonnySiniwali]

I also recommend you learn what macros do before assuming they execute many keystrokes with one press.

 

Cast sequence macros do exactly that, and they are part of a certain other very popular game. They absolutely dumb everything down because you only have to choose between 2 or 3 buttons. This is hardly debatable.

 

TOR has a real problem with hot key real estate. But that can easily be fixed without macros. I am not even opposed to certain things like Shift/Alt conditionals which would help with the hotbar shortage problem. But much beyond that and the game is now making decisions for you, and like the OP said, why even bother? Just go watch a movie where you don't get to/have to make any choices beyond turning it on in the first place.

[TradewindNQ]

Cast sequence macros do exactly that, and they are part of a certain other very popular game. They absolutely dumb everything down because you only have to choose between 2 or 3 buttons. This is hardly debatable.

 

Except anyone who is consistently using a cast sequence macro is doing so at a great cost to their own performance. As such, who cares? Cast sequence macros also don't have conditionals, only a reset condition based on time or combat status.

Edited January 21, 2012 by TradewindNQ

[BadgeredMushroom]

Then you weren't paying attention to what was being discussed, which was not the "castsequence" type of macro. I was very specifically talking about conditional macros as described in the post I replied to (and quoted). That post was not talking about your kind of macro at all, but conditional ones that decide which ability to use based on a priority, and whether they're on cooldown or not.

 

Maybe you haven't played Rift, or used their macro system, but it does not even support the kind of macro you're describing.

 

Rift was the last MMO I played. I used macros there. They have cast sequence macros that work exactly as I describe. I could put a cooldown ability at the top of the stack, then an ability with a shorter cooldown, then a spammable ability on the same button. Before I discovered their macros, I had those same abilities lined up in a row. It didn't change the game difficulty, but it did make my hotbars a lot less cluttered.

 

What exactly is a cast sequence macro? The type that allows me to write exceptions for what happens depending on what is and isn't on cooldown? Honestly, I don't see the harm. If someone bothered to learn their class (and the macro coding) to the point where they can put their entire rotation on one button, more power to them. That'd be no different than me consolidating the macros that I had on Rift and putting them all into one hotkey slot. I know the rotation, I know what order to use my abilities in to maximize my DPS, so it makes no real difference in the end.

 

Frankly, if I can play my class effectively by binding all of my abilities to one macro, then that shows a huge flaw in the game's complexity, or lack thereof, not an issue with the UI. UIs are meant to be as efficient as user friendly as possible and should not be an artificial barrier to playing as effectively as possible. The game content should be the challenging part, not the UI.

[Ashu-ri]

I've played both LOTRO and Eve, and never used macros. LOTRO was specifically designed not to allow macros - so the best you got was short cut keys for /follow, etc. They only recently added add-ons, and that's still in beta. Although there are some I find "useful" - like the ones popping up when you need a wound pot, etc. - I would never call them necessary. I lived without them until I got this system last year, and I only use a couple of them now. I don't use the dps parser (it only shows yours, not the whole group's) because I don't really need them. I can gauge my performance for myself.

[Pink_Saber]

Rift was the last MMO I played. I used macros there. They have cast sequence macros that work exactly as I describe. I could put a cooldown ability at the top of the stack, then an ability with a shorter cooldown, then a spammable ability on the same button. Before I discovered their macros, I had those same abilities lined up in a row. It didn't change the game difficulty, but it did make my hotbars a lot less cluttered.

 

So you are talking about Rift then? Then I'm very confused. Rift does not support sequence macros, and never has. It does support listing abilities in a priority order, and then decides which to use based on the priority you've given, and whether they are on cooldown or not. You cannot, as you said earlier, "consciously decide to order them in the same way that I would have used them even without macros." That's just flat-out impossible to do in Rift.

 

If you thought you'd set up a macro that would always use those abilities in the order you listed them, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Rift macros work.

 

They most certainly do change the game's difficulty, since you no longer have to decide for yourself which ability is the best to use at a given time. All the decision-making is done by the macro system after you've listed the priority (not the sequence) you want to use them in.

 

It is, absolutely, the worst macro system I've ever seen in an MMO for exactly that reason, and barely a step up from botting. I honestly can't fathom how you could think the game deciding which ability to use, instead of the player, does not effect the game's difficulty. It's a huge crutch.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[mcfabulous]

if the game was hard to begin with, your arguement about them dumbing it down might have validity, but as it stands, not much would change other than not needing 35235235 moves on your 4 puny bars. (that you cant move to stack 3, or line in a 3x4 set up or something.)

[BadgeredMushroom]

So you are talking about Rift then? Then I'm very confused. Rift does not support sequence macros, and never has. It does support listing abilities in a priority order, and then decides which to use based on the priority you've given, and whether they are on cooldown or not. It is impossible to, as you said earlier, "consciously decide to order them in the same way that I would have used them even without macros." That's just flat-out impossible to do in Rift.

 

If you thought you'd set up a macro that would always use those abilities in the order you listed them, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Rift macros work.

 

They most certainly do change the game's difficulty, since you no longer have to decide for yourself which ability is the best to use at a given time. All the decision-making is done by the macro system after you've listed the priority (not the sequence) you want to use them in.

 

It is, absolutely, the worst macro system I've ever seen in an MMO for exactly that reason, and barely a step up from botting. I honestly can't fathom how you could think the game deciding which ability to use, instead of the player, does not effect the game's difficulty. It's a huge crutch.

 

... as a pyromancer, the sequence is the priority. The cooldown timers on those abilities made it so that I cast them the exact same manner as I did without the macro.

 

Even if the macro system worked the way you described, a player who had to have the knowledge of his class to order the abilities in the most efficient way possible is still present and actively playing. Just because their hotbar is less cluttered doesn't make it tantamount to botting. Less hyperbole from your part would be greatly appreciated.

[Coramac]

this question concerns macros. why do you keep whining for them and how can you possibly say they won't dumb down the difficulty of the game?

 

Macros go far beyond what you have listed.

 

Personally, I am not a huge fan of ability macros. I do believe these dumb down the game or at the very least reduce the skill required. For the most part at least.

 

I want macros for targeting. I want to be able to able to assist off of multiple players. I want to be able to target an offtank's target without clicking. I want to be able to target another healer's target without clicking. I want to eliminate monotonous game play that does not require skill through automation (Canni dancing anyone?).

 

Honestly, to a large degree, well laid out, customizable UI goes a long way to mitigating the need for macros. I don't think it completely eliminates it from an efficiency standpoint, and we don't have that so it's a moot point.

[Pink_Saber]

... as a pyromancer, the sequence is the priority. The cooldown timers on those abilities made it so that I cast them the exact same manner as I did without the macro.

 

Even if the macro system worked the way you described, a player who had to have the knowledge of his class to order the abilities in the most efficient way possible is still present and actively playing. Just because their hotbar is less cluttered doesn't make it tantamount to botting. Less hyperbole from your part would be greatly appreciated.

 

OK, I'm going to have to drop out at this point, because it's clear to me that you aren't really familiar with how Rift's macro system actually works, and seem to feel a need to believe it works some other way. You cannot set up sequential macros in Rift. It cannot be done. It's impossible.

 

And no, figuring out a priority for your abilities once, adding it to a list, and banging that key over and over is not the same thing as actively playing your character. It requires absolutely no knowledge of your character, since all you need to do is copy the macro from someone who does.

 

I get that you like that kind of system (whether because of how it actually works, or because of how you erroneously believe it works), but I completely disagree. I think it's awful, and I'm only mentioning in case macros are added to this game, in the hopes that we never get anything like it.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[VorpalK]

butt-hurt

 

Flagged.

 

Enjoy your vacation.

[Coramac]

OK, I'm going to have to drop out at this point, because it's clear to me that you aren't really familiar with how Rift's macro system actually works, and seem to feel a need to believe it works some other way. You cannot set up sequential macros in Rift. It cannot be done. It's impossible.

 

And no, figuring out a priority for your abilities once, adding it to a list, and banging that key over and over is not the same thing as actively playing your character. It requires absolutely no knowledge of your character, since all you need to do is copy the macro from someone who does.

 

I get that you like that kind of system (whether because of how it actually works, or because of how you erroneously believe it works), but I completely disagree. I think it's awful, and I'm only mentioning in case macros are added to this game, in the hopes that we never get anything like it.

 

You can. You will get an error message, or at least I did, for every ability that doesn't fire.

 

It really only works well for a straight priority system and not effectively for some rotations.

[BadgeredMushroom]

OK, I'm going to have to drop out at this point, because it's clear to me that you aren't really familiar with how Rift's macro system actually works, and seem to feel a need to believe it works some other way. You cannot set up sequential macros in Rift. It cannot be done. It's impossible.

 

Okay, I'll just pretend I never played my character the way I described it to you. It must have been my imagination.

 

And no, figuring out a priority for your abilities once, adding it to a list, and banging that key over and over is not the same thing as actively playing your character. It requires absolutely no knowledge of your character, since all you need to do is copy the macro from someone who does.

 

Yes it is, and yes it does, or at least as much knowledge as going to a fansite that tells you the best rotations and using those, with or without macros. It's the same thing, except one method takes up less room on your hotbar than the other. It doesn't make the game any easier or harder unless you've got fat fingers or have a physical disability that keeps you from moving your hand as fast as the average Joe, in which case any game would be hard regardless of the actual difficulty of the content.

 

But sure, I guess to some people this is as much a crutch as having a combat log (or a more sophisticated log like Recount), target of target portrait, and other UI elements that have become mainstream over the past few years. Knowledge and streamlining UI elements is always a crutch. Real men use an abacus and have no need for learning, right? Calculators and the internet are for wusses and invalids.

 

I get that you like that kind of system (whether because of how it actually works, or because of how you erroneously believe it works), but I completely disagree. I think it's awful, and I'm only mentioning in case macros are added to this game, in the hopes that we don't get anything like it. It's awful.

 

You, being you and not me, obviously know how I played my character better than I do, so I'll let you win.

 

I don't like or dislike macros as Rift is my only real experience using them. I wouldn't care if they were added to this game (in any fashion or form) or not as long as I can eventually reconfigure my hotbars to sit in the center of my screen 3 or 4 rows high.

Edited January 21, 2012 by BadgeredMushroom

[BadgeredMushroom]

You can. You will get an error message, or at least I did, for every ability that doesn't fire.

 

It really only works well for a straight priority system and not effectively for some rotations.

 

Ding ding ding! Since my class had a few key cooldowns that could be stacked in a particular order and always function the way I intended, I did just that.

 

However, he clearly knows the game better than you, and that's impossible, so bow out of this conversation before he tells you how wrong you are.

[Pink_Saber]

However, he clearly knows the game better than you, and that's impossible, so bow out of this conversation before he tells you how wrong you are.

 

I'm sorry, but no. There just aren't any circumstances I can think of where you'd be able to set up multiple abilities on a macro in a way that they'd fire in the same order, every time. It's just not a mathematical possibility.

 

If all your cooldowns are the same, the first ability will fire every time.

 

If the first cooldown is shorter then the second, the first will fire every time it is off cooldown, and in that case option 1 will fire more often then option 2, since it will be off cooldown more often. If the second cooldown is shorter then the first, the second option will fire more often.

 

That's how Rift's macro system works. It goes down a list and will fire the first ability that is off cooldown. That is the only type of macro it supports. You may be able to write something that gives you the illusion of a sequence macro in the very short term, but it is absolutely impossible to write a truly sequential macro. Their system does not support, and never has supported, that type of macro. I can stand by that 100% no matter how many people may say otherwise, because it's the truth.

 

In any case, my point here isn't to document Rift's macro system, just to say that priority-based macros make decisions for players, and that's not something I'd like to see supported in this game.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[NinjaRockStar]

edit: in fact, why don't we just ask bioware to make the game like KOTOR, where you can pause combat and cue up 4 abilities at once?

 

Don't be ridiculous, can you actually imagine having to wait for every player in the match to pause the game and select their abilities? Obviously you did not think that one through.

[BadgeredMushroom]

There is no way to set up a sequence macro in Rift. I can stand by that 100% no matter how many people may say otherwise, because it's the truth.

 

'Kay.

 

In any case, my point here isn't to document Rift's macro system, just to say that priority-based macros make decisions for players, and that's not something I'd like to see supported in this game.

 

Nope. The player who created the macro made the decision to order his abilities in that fashion for a reason. Either he sat on his own and used a parser to determine which rotation was optimal, or he went over to <SWTOR fansite> and found the best rotation for his class and put it into the macro. Either way, he know has the knowledge to play his class effectively, even if he didn't figure it out himself. The only difference is that his abilities take up a button or two instead of an entire row or rows of hotbar slots. Objectively, that is the only difference.

 

I think the problem here is that you equate pressing multiple buttons in a certain order as more skillful than making a macro that uses those same abilities in the same order. Seems silly to me.

[Acri]

Macros just make it so instead of pressing 2 or 3 buttons, you're pressing 1. People with certain gaming keyboards are able to do this anyway, albeit maybe not as well.

 

That means that some people in the game, right now, have a small time advantage over you simply because they have a more expensive keyboard. This removes the advantage and puts everyone on an equal level.

 

Besides, is pressing 1 button or 2-3 all together really about the difference in difficulty? Pressing one button or a couple buttons are both very simple.

[Lormif]

Ok guys, in this game most of the abilities are not on a rotation coold own system like wow, so the whole one button game play does not work. For example my consular has triggers that change the rotation I need to use. If I I use force throw and get a instacast spell out of it I want to use my dot, unless it is already up, then I want to use disturbance type of situation..

 

The type of macros most people want are simple target cast macros. Such as

/target lormif

/cast heal

[Coramac]

I'm sorry, but no. There just aren't any circumstances I can think of where you'd be able to set up multiple abilities on a macro in a way that they'd fire in the same order, every time. It's just not a mathematical possibility.

 

It's a straight up if-then-else sequence...

 

In any case, my point here isn't to document Rift's macro system, just to say that priority-based macros make decisions for players, and that's not something I'd like to see supported in this game.

 

I agree somewhat. The fact that a combat system is priority designed makes decisions for players. Rotations at least can have variations, twists, and complications.

 

I didn't like what I saw in Rift, but I don't an issue with people making a "combo-hotkey." In early WoW, I was PvP fury (I MADE IT WORK!). I had a macro set up to switch to Battle Stance and Overpower. Before I made the macro, I used hotkey alignment on the toolbar to make it work when the stance bar shifted. The macro allowed for better toolbar and hotkey set up. That's not a skill decreaser, that's a efficientcy / quality of life issue.

[Qoojo]

I would answer this, but I am more of an MMO journeyman.