None of us have any Idea of what is going on.

[Mcra]

How do you know you're good? how do you know I'm not bad?

 

I disagree with you so now I must not know what I'm talking about.

 

You disagree with me and you must not know what you're talking about.

 

We need data. We need a combat log.

 

Show some humility and rather than DEMANDING nerfs first DEMAND data.

 

Demand the answer to questions; not you're poorly found conclusions. how do I know they are poorly found? because you have no data.

 

Do you know if kinetic attacks being undodgeable/deflectable is intended or a bug? i know you don't because I don't and I've been looking the only places you can look too.

 

what if these nerfs go in and then all of a sudden now they can be dodged... that'll change the game and perhaps operatives will need to itemize for accuracy rather than straight pwr/crit/surge.

 

I ask all players to put down their nerfbats and demand features in the game that allow us to play at a high level before we start to tweak balance. We need more data before we call for nerfs.

 

I play an operative and while i can't conclude if or how overpowered operatives are (I'm confident they aren't underpowered ). It does make me wonder how many sorcs run around without their absorb shield up as much as possible (which absorbs about as much as a hidden strike) they can and have the 2 piece healing set (even if they arent healing) for reduced CD on their absorb shield... if you take this tip, notice a postitive difference, and you posted that operatives need nerfs, maybe you will put down you're nerfbat too.

 

P.S. you don't even know how much the shield absorbs because I don't either, When it goes away and I hit for carryover (I don't always break the shield either) dmg of any number IDK if it was a crit or not because we have NO DATA!

 

I am Mcra on sword of ajunta pall and I am a 63 valor operative in with 700 bonus damage; 40 crit with 2 piece rakata set bonus (+15 crit to backstab); 90 percent surge; and 434 expertise; and sub 100 accuracy because its worthless. There are going to be very few operatives as geared as me.

[Adronyth]

/sign

[Haymakers]

How do you know you're good? how do you know I'm not bad?

 

I disagree with you so now I must not know what I'm talking about.

 

You disagree with me and you must not know what you're talking about.

 

We need data. We need a combat log.

 

Show some humility and rather than DEMANDING nerfs first DEMAND data.

 

Demand the answer to questions; not you're poorly found conclusions. how do I know they are poorly found? because you have no data.

 

Do you know if kinetic attacks being undodgeable/deflectable is intended or a bug? i know you don't because I don't and I've been looking the only places you can look too.

 

what if these nerfs go in and then all of a sudden now they can be dodged... that'll change the game and perhaps operatives will need to itemize for accuracy rather than straight pwr/crit/surge.

 

I ask all players to put down their nerfbats and demand features in the game that allow us to play at a high level before we start to tweak balance. We need more data before we call for nerfs.

 

I play an operative and while i can't conclude if or how overpowered operatives are (I'm confident they aren't underpowered ). It does make me wonder how many sorcs run around without their absorb shield up as much as possible (which absorbs about as much as a hidden strike) they can and have the 2 piece healing set (even if they arent healing) for reduced CD on their absorb shield... if you take this tip, notice a postitive difference, and you posted that operatives need nerfs, maybe you will put down you're nerfbat too.

 

P.S. you don't even know how much the shield absorbs because I don't either, When it goes away and I hit for carryover (I don't always break the shield either) dmg of any number IDK if it was a crit or not because we have NO DATA!

 

I am Mcra on sword of ajunta pall and I am a 63 valor operative in with 700 bonus damage; 40 crit with 2 piece rakata set bonus (+15 crit to backstab); 90 percent surge; and 434 expertise; and sub 100 accuracy because its worthless. There are going to be very few operatives as geared as me.

 

This is the honest truth. No classes should be nerfed without any sort of data or combat log. Its honestly just common sense.

[Saben-]

Agreed.

 

With regards to shields I'm led to believe our shields (op/sniper) is not scaled off techpower and only scales off healing bonus hence why ours seems to absorb 1000 damage and theirs absorbs 3k plus!

 

We will see, I believe bioware really rushed releasing their game and are a long way behind schedule, end game was not finished nor was a lot of other stuff for example the ui and combat logs two things that are very important to a mmo in my opinion! I really hope they sort the ui out as fast as possible I can't stand maps and party frames to name a few things overlapping the skill bars o well fingers crossed they got two months left to impress me lol.

[Mikkeos]

You can do the job of a parser and comat log for yourself.

 

But this only works if the skills activate correctly and the effect actually works.

 

In a proper log you could see what does its job and what does not, how much of the damage takes hold, what skills to avoid against which target, ...

[Nessirin]

2 pieces rakata set and you say there will be very few less geared ops? Hah don't make me laugh we have 4 agents in rakata. It is not that hard.

 

 

Accuracy worthless, another point you know nothing about, you need 110% to take shields of the boss out of equation, which is much bigger boost than a little more power or surge.

 

 

The rest I agree with though.

[thecoffeecup]

A lot of sense being made in this thread!

 

And, you know, basically I just want to know how much damage I'm doing compared to everyone else.

[Mikkeos]

I am healing, and you better not dodge whatever I am throwing your way!

[Tycius]

Very good point and idea!

 

/sign

[huugo]

agreed

[Spliffmaster]

/signed!

[KindBudhArsh]

im pretty sure something like this is coming soon, in the Whats Coming Up video they mentioned a PVP stat ranking/comparison. But combat log im sure is on the way too

[qIrwuMfh]

The absence of a combat log or valid arguments from developers concerning 'nerfs' is there for a reason. Without laying out numbers they have high autonomy on changing things without the ability of people to double check.

 

It's also insane to demand constructive threads on manners like that considering that 99% of the people around here shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.

 

The changes to operative are purely based on corporate policy and not on any mythical data/metrics which popped up and showed that these changes are needed.

 

I never experience the 'opness' of operative when playing with equally geared and skill wise good people. Only fresh 50's who don't have any decent gear or a single *********** clue about their class are ripped into pieces. (nearly got all Battlemaster pieces ).

 

On the other side: this isn't a MMORPG which is designed for competetive pvp - keep that in mind in your discussion. Competitiveness would start by eliminating diffrences in gear, thus allowing everyone to be equipped the same upon entering PvP - i.e. Guild Wars. There is no real balance either. There is a very good reason that the majority plays sorc/merc ; nuff said.

[LilTikiBoy]

Unfortunately this thread makes sense, so it will probably be page 3 by morning.

[aptaxis]

/signed!

[Mcra]

2 pieces rakata set and you say there will be very few less geared ops? Hah don't make me laugh we have 4 agents in rakata. It is not that hard.

 

 

Accuracy worthless, another point you know nothing about, you need 110% to take shields of the boss out of equation, which is much bigger boost than a little more power or surge.

 

 

The rest I agree with though.

 

I'm talking strickly about pvp gear, where I only use 2 rakata for the set bonus. and I have itemized my character to have ideal stat weights by using duplicate champion items to take out their mods/enhancements to replace accuracy mods with more crit surge. It isn't that hard, but few have done it before me...

 

I regret the use of the word few. I didn't mean a few players in the world, I just meant a few by the relation to the number of players who play operatives. probably 5-10 percent of operatives and scoundrels out there (which is probably a handful of players per server)

 

I have never seen a dodge/deflect/miss on any of my kinetic attacks (hiddenstrike; backstab; shiv; lacerate) ever in this game... operation boss or pvp. but i have seen it on attacks that do WEAPON DAMAGE which is only my gun attacks (rifle shot; overload shot; other shots i don't use ever)

 

Also any operative here can tell that when you use evasion you still die... why? because only weapon damage can be dodge... i dodge snipe and i dodge some sin attacks... but not tracer missle, and not other operatives.

 

Even though I never miss I would appreciate a source on the 110% for bosses. I've spent some time looking for hit/accuracy information and never found any info from the only place that actually knows.... from BioWare themselves.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Mcra

[uQQme]

Its already a whine-fest without numbers. Can you even fathom how much whine trucks will be passing by if they suddenly release stats? I wouldn't do it if I'm BW, not until I know it won't aggro 90% of the playerbase.

[Mcra]

You can do the job of a parser and comat log for yourself.

 

But this only works if the skills activate correctly and the effect actually works.

 

In a proper log you could see what does its job and what does not, how much of the damage takes hold, what skills to avoid against which target, ...

 

I'm not opposed to working on it, but I want to piggyback on you're point about the skills actually working.

 

The game is broken, There is lag spikes that make people look like they fell when didn't, my hiddenstrike will knockdown multiple people, abilites like vanish and the sorc absorb shield will not cast, and worst of all ability delay.

 

If all of these were magically fixed would operatives be overpowered? if a sorc could actually rely on their abilities to work every 1.5 seconds with 1 press of the key? they would not need to give 50 percent of their attention to whether the ability went or not and actually just KNOW that it did, giving them "time" to kite while their dots tick for more distance to start to cast again. The time wasted on combat delay is ample.

 

In my opinion the classes that use channeled spells are at a disadvantage to the classes that don't use channeled spells because of combat delay.

 

Regardless of whether you agree with me or not (because I don't know anymore than you, and you don't know more than me) you should still agree that we demand fixes to the things that allow us to PLAY THE GAME before we start to demand class balance issues be resolved when we don't even know if its the classes fault or the way the bugs affect some classes more. (Even if you still think that operatives MUST need a nerf now, you don't know what the implications would be before these issues are fixed)

 

Please don't be the forgetful gamer who just starts to accept the things Bioware doesn't give us and demand these things sooner so the game can be done right.

[LilTikiBoy]

Its already a whine-fest without numbers. Can you even fathom how much whine trucks will be passing by if they suddenly release stats? I wouldn't do it if I'm BW, not until I know it won't aggro 90% of the playerbase.

 

Your logic is so flawed. Giving us the ability to see what were doing and what other are doing to us would allow us to separate legitimate OP/UP classes and abilities from all the random QQ.

[Usarina]

Your logic is so flawed. Giving us the ability to see what were doing and what other are doing to us would allow us to separate legitimate OP/UP classes and abilities from all the random QQ.

 

It seems many people are assuming that because there is no in-game combat log, the decision to nerf a class is based on anecdotal evidence.

 

The numbers are available, it's just that players can't see them. No company is going to rely on the player-base to ultimately decide what is and isn't OP. Players are notoriously self-interested/centered and totally incapable of seeing the big picture, or caring about it if they do.

 

'I died in PvP so all other classes must be nerfed' is the average player's idea of objective feedback.

 

I want the combat log so I can test which builds are better for me and I'm happy to see that it's coming, but I don't need the inevietable third party parser addon to see if I'm doing 0.3% less dps than someone else.

[Mikkeos]

Usarina: In nearly all online games I played for the last couple of decades the devs gave us the means to prove it when we felt something was not working as intended or described.

 

I spent countless weekends and evenings testing and documenting and testing and documenting - surprisingly often with a result that was worth handing over to the devs for adjustments to be made. And if the tests did show that the skill/ability/mob/whatever worked fine, contrary to what people wrote on the forum, that was acceptable too.

 

Here, we can mostly guess and work the theory with the snippets and crumbs we receive from the devs and the game.

 

Maybe some old school gamers remember "Aoenla's Fletching Guide" (EQ: Tunare) or "Greebo's Guide to Unrest" (EQ: Rallos Zek). Maybe some people still remember the old rogue problems in EQ? I was among the people who proved that something was amiss, and suggested changes that actually made it into the life game later.

 

I was one of the people who found out how the boats in EQ got out of sync (and got a good friend banned from the game for proving what caused the problem to a dev ...).

 

But for that precision, we actually need the tools we do not have here.

FRAPS and similar tools help quite a bit for everyday use in SWTOR, but that's ugly manual labour.

 

Single person combat logs are kinda useless too when you want to know what is going on in a group situation, but they'll at least help to work on the little issues like rotations and effect of attributes.

[Chado_]

The absence of a combat log or valid arguments from developers concerning 'nerfs' is there for a reason. Without laying out numbers they have high autonomy on changing things without the ability of people to double check.

 

It's also insane to demand constructive threads on manners like that considering that 99% of the people around here shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.

 

The changes to operative are purely based on corporate policy and not on any mythical data/metrics which popped up and showed that these changes are needed.

 

I never experience the 'opness' of operative when playing with equally geared and skill wise good people. Only fresh 50's who don't have any decent gear or a single *********** clue about their class are ripped into pieces. (nearly got all Battlemaster pieces ).

 

On the other side: this isn't a MMORPG which is designed for competetive pvp - keep that in mind in your discussion. Competitiveness would start by eliminating diffrences in gear, thus allowing everyone to be equipped the same upon entering PvP - i.e. Guild Wars. There is no real balance either. There is a very good reason that the majority plays sorc/merc ; nuff said.

 

 

This guy is S-M-R-T. Any mmorpg dev team that aims for real class balance, on the other hand, is not.

[sollinton]

/signed

[The_Mystic]

I half agree.

 

Everyone should put down their nerf bats and have a reasoned discussion as to how to improve the game. However, most players are so expectant of the nerf cycle that rather than see it is very bad for a game they embrace it and just try to shout the loudest.

 

It is because of this I don't think there should be a combat log. Right now it would just add fuel to the fire. It would allow people to throw random numbers into their uninformed opinions.

 

As you say, right now we need bugs fixing. We need to get the game in a state where players can expirience it bug free before deciding what needs changing.

[DeimosBane]

At this point we should start asking why, in 2012, one of the biggest gaming companies, with years of data from other mmos to learn from has not put in a combat log instead of where or when that combat log will be implemented.

 

More than likely a combat log would show undeniable proof that something is horribly wrong with the combat system in this game engine.

 

I'm guessing the devs had a combat log during design phase and noticed some problems, than a mandate from accounting or corporate came down stating that this game would launch in 4th quarter 2011 or else and that log got minimized or deleted and hasn't been thought about since.

Edited January 22, 2012 by DeimosBane