No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ferroz]

Because your companion didn't help accomplish the task one iota. And unless it is being used in the group it never will help.

Certainly it did. The only reason I'm of level to be in the group is due to my companions.

 

So taking loot from an active participant to make your solo game better is the epitome of need and entitlement.

False.

 

It's only entitlement if you claim that you're entitled to it over other people and insist that they shouldn't be rolling.

[Sousukesama]

If you say so. The real chances of meeting the same players continually are mediocre at best I would think. So the argument has no basis.

 

Mediocre in only some cases. For example, I work in the Tech world and have to deal with bugs in code and helping developers fix them. This also includes providing justification to have said bug fixed sooner rather than later.

 

This usually goes on through email as my company is global. Receiving a response in email to turn down a request to have a bug fix pushed sooner is easy to do. When I travel to different sites and talk with said developer or development group, it magically seems they are very agreeable and their ability to say no the bug won't get fixed in this upcoming release is not so easy for them.

 

This has nothing to do with being threatening, it goes on all the time in the corporate world with companies being global.

 

The same concept extends to online games. People are inherently non-confrontational, but take away the human part of it ( face to face ) they suddenly find themselves able to treat others with disrespect.

 

Believe what you want.

[ferroz]

If you are following the loot concept that is being put forth here by some of the folks that your goal should be to increase the viability of groups (all groups, not just the current one) then you getting gear to make your group-based play is the entire point.

Sorry, but I reject the idea that you are allowed to dictate my goal. You aren't. That's not my goal.

[Setanian]

Hardly.

 

If you are following the loot concept that is being put forth here by some of the folks that your goal should be to increase the viability of groups (all groups, not just the current one) then you getting gear to make your group-based play is the entire point.

 

And - if you were actually taking equipment to make your character better in the area of the game you are participating in at the time (group content) then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. You aren't though - you are taking advantage of group players to make your solo life easier to the detriment of others.

 

I am not taking advantage of group players at all. In fact, it is the group players attempting to take advantage from me.

 

Each group member gets to roll on the loot. If they lose they lose, if they win, they win. Anything else and all this, my class, better stats for me, is just greed.

[Loendar]

Certainly it did. The only reason I'm of level to be in the group is due to my companions.

 

False.

 

It's only entitlement if you claim that you're entitled to it over other people and insist that they shouldn't be rolling.

 

This isn't that hard to grasp.

 

The task at hand wasn't accomplished by your companion. Your companion is not actively participating in the fight (in this example) and brings nothing to the table. Your companion is not entitled to jack over an active participant in the group unless that is decided up front.

[Galbatorrix]

No the concept that is hard to grasp for you, is that you feel entitled to the loot because you believe it is bestir for you. That is just completely false on your part.

 

The only entitlement you have is to roll the dice. That you even think you have a say on who got the loot or what they do with it is just amazing.

 

 

Nope, you're completely wrong. The messed up argument is you thinking it ok to ninja the shiny new cunning chest piece from my Gunslinger and then going "what? I can use the plus endurance mod on my pet" when I complain about it. How that argument has this many followers is completely insane. Some people need to grow a conscience.

[Setanian]

Mediocre in only some cases. For example, I work in the Tech world and have to deal with bugs in code and helping developers fix them. This also includes providing justification to have said bug fixed sooner rather than later.

 

This usually goes on through email as my company is global. Receiving a response in email to turn down a request to have a bug fix pushed sooner is easy to do. When I travel to different sites and talk with said developer or development group, it magically seems they are very agreeable and their ability to say no the bug won't get fixed in this upcoming release is not so easy for them.

 

This has nothing to do with being threatening, it goes on all the time in the corporate world with companies being global.

 

The same concept extends to online games. People are inherently non-confrontational, but take away the human part of it ( face to face ) they suddenly find themselves able to treat others with disrespect.

 

No it doesn't and never has except in the heads of those that believe it. The disrespect here is that people believe they have some entitlement to the loot, when in fact, the only entitlement they have, is to roll and see if they win.

 

Believe what you want.

 

I do, thank you.

[Loendar]

Sorry, but I reject the idea that you are allowed to dictate my goal. You aren't. That's not my goal.

 

And in the current system you are 100 percent correct. That doesn't make it fundamentally right or wrong.

[Maccaroth]

And I should care about greedy people alienating me? If anyone feels they have some right, written or otherwise to force me to allow them a better chance at loot while I lose out, I am delighted to be alienated from them.

The more people you alienate the harder it will be for you to find people to group and play with. And flashpoints are usually done by four people's group. It's not the best idea to make enemies if there is no reason for it.

 

Also, don't treat this social contract as something that makes you forfeit your share of the loot for nothing. Remember that while you might be expected to not need some of said loot (when there are peope around who need it for their character) you'll be entitled to need the other parts and these will be the parts that will improve your character directly. Plus you'll greed anything else that the other players didn't need. You pass something, you gain something.

[DrunkenGundark]

Sorry, but I reject the idea that you are allowed to dictate my goal. You aren't. That's not my goal.

 

So... let me get this straight. Flashpoints are team efforts. The whole purpose is to work together to accomplish a shared goal. But your goal doesn't coincide with the goals of the rest of the party.

 

You're not willing to let them "dictate" what you should do. (Help, help, I'm being oppressed!)

 

Clarify for us, then? What are you doing running these things?

[Setanian]

Nope, you're completely wrong. The messed up argument is you thinking it ok to ninja

 

To ninja is to take something you were not entitled to take. if I roll and win, I get the goodies. No ninja there I'm afraid.

 

the shiny new cunning chest piece from my Gunslinger and then going "what?

 

The fact is, and I know you don't like it, but, that loot was never your gunslingers ever. It was your gunslingers when you won it if you won it. if you did not, then it is not and never was, your gunslingers. That you think it was astounds me.

 

I can use the plus endurance mod on my pet" when I complain about it. How that argument has this many followers is completely insane. Some people need to grow a conscience.

 

Again here you go thinking it is any of your business what other people do with the loot they won. You didn't win it, it is not, and never was, yours.

[Setanian]

So... let me get this straight. Flashpoints are team efforts. The whole purpose is to work together to accomplish a shared goal. But your goal doesn't coincide with the goals of the rest of the party.

 

You're not willing to let them "dictate" what you should do. (Help, help, I'm being oppressed!)

 

Clarify for us, then? What are you doing running these things?

 

The exact same as the other 3 group members. Killing a boss and getting a shot on rolling on the loot. Nothing more and nothing less. If I lose, I lose, if I win, I win. End of story.

[VanorDM]

Yes. Yes, you didn't see nor sign it.

 

If I didn't see it or sign it, then how can I be held responsible to uphold it?

 

But many people seem to think that there are certain "no brainers" or "everybody knows that" sort of things and they don't expect or think that the others might openly break social tabu.

 

I agree completely which is my whole point, well it's a big part of my point anyway.

 

There's two different things being disused in this thread.

 

1) Should you or should you not roll need for companions? That is a debate that some of us are engaged in.

 

2) Everyone should know that you only roll need for stuff that you will equip on your character.

 

The problem with that, is it's based on the assumption that everyone already has the same opinion on point 1.

[ferroz]

So... let me get this straight. Flashpoints are team efforts. The whole purpose is to work together to accomplish a shared goal. But your goal doesn't coincide with the goals of the rest of the party.

Yup. Lots of team activities have different goals.

 

Some people play sports to win. Some people play sports to enjoy the game. Some people play sports to increase their own personal health. It's possible to have teams that function just fine with all types of people, each with different goals.

 

Clarify for us, then? What are you doing running these things?

Stabbing stuff with a lightsaber. Enjoying myself. Killing bosses. Working with teammates to do so.

 

Oh, and not dictating to anyone what they should and shouldn't want as far as loot.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Galbatorrix]

So... let me get this straight. Flashpoints are team efforts. The whole purpose is to work together to accomplish a shared goal. But your goal doesn't coincide with the goals of the rest of the party.

 

You're not willing to let them "dictate" what you should do. (Help, help, I'm being oppressed!)

 

Clarify for us, then? What are you doing running these things?

 

 

Apparently, they're running for the sole purpose of hearing people bash them for griefing. Because intended griefing or otherwise, if they really do need on everything they say they do, People are going to take it as such.

 

I just don't see many smooth runs in their future.

[crica]

I ask the group leaders when I join a group what loot rules will be.

 

If they match the loot rules I prefer, I stay.

 

If they don't match the loot rules I prefer, I leave and find another group or make a group myself and use the loot rules I prefer.

 

I never have any problems running group content in any MMO I play.

 

Have fun!

[The_Archon]

The disrespect here is that people believe they have some entitlement to the loot, when in fact, the only entitlement they have, is to roll and see if they win.

 

People are smarter than random number generators.

 

Except for the people who insist everyone always use the random number generator.

[Eldren]

So... let me get this straight. Flashpoints are team efforts. The whole purpose is to work together to accomplish a shared goal. But your goal doesn't coincide with the goals of the rest of the party.

 

You're not willing to let them "dictate" what you should do. (Help, help, I'm being oppressed!)

 

Clarify for us, then? What are you doing running these things?

 

People run group content for two primary reasons:

 

1) To see the content, and

2) To get gear upgrades

 

This game introduced upgradeable companions (sounds too much like Pokemon, but there it is). It also introduced upgradeable gear. As a result, any given individual piece of gear has a viable use past one particular class. Consequently, people are more likely on an individual level to stake a claim to it.

 

It doesn't remove a simple reality: no one owns a piece until it's in their inventory. As a result, it's patently impossible to "take it away" from another player; they didn't own it to begin with.

 

Each player in a group participates, each player is given a chance to roll, one player gets each piece. 100% fair, 100% impartial, 100% ideal in this paradigm. Anything else is someone (it doesn't matter which camp) attempting to impose additional primacy for no reason other than they think they should have it.

 

But one person's belief in primacy (or one group's) doesn't mean it's objectively prime, nor should it mean someone else should just step aside. If you lose out on a piece you wanted because you didn't roll or chose a lower priority roll, you've no one but yourself to blame.

 

If you want it, take the necessary actions to have a chance at getting it. It doesn't matter why you want it.

[ferroz]

People are smarter than random number generators

Smarter != more fair.

[Setanian]

Apparently, they're running for the sole purpose of hearing people bash them for griefing. Because intended griefing or otherwise, if they really do need on everything they say they do, People are going to take it as such.

 

I just don't see many smooth runs in their future.

 

Ah but if people take it as griefing, throwing their toys out of the pram because they didn't win the roll, that is completely their problem, not mine.

[Galbatorrix]

To ninja is to take something you were not entitled to take. if I roll and win, I get the goodies. No ninja there I'm afraid.

 

 

 

The fact is, and I know you don't like it, but, that loot was never your gunslingers ever. It was your gunslingers when you won it if you won it. if you did not, then it is not and never was, your gunslingers. That you think it was astounds me.

 

 

 

Again here you go thinking it is any of your business what other people do with the loot they won. You didn't win it, it is not, and never was, yours.

 

 

If I'm helping bring down the boss, it most certainly IS my business. Something dropped for my class. I got lucky this run. No reason to pull a douche move and need it just because you technically "can". That's what sociopaths do. Are you a sociopath?

 

"Why should you get gear when I did not!?!?"

[ferroz]

Apparently, they're running for the sole purpose of hearing people bash them for griefing. Because intended griefing or otherwise, if they really do need on everything they say they do, People are going to take it as such.

Who, other than the 2 trolls (the ascii art guy and the one at the beginning of the thread that keeps getting one-off replies) is advocating rolling need on everything?

 

I just don't see many smooth runs in their future.

I see plenty.

[Borntoride]

Umm,

 

Everybody does realize this is just a game to have fun , right ? Quit getting your panties in a wad because you have grouped with a few ninjas.

 

You can solve this by waiting for the ninja to "need" on a item that is not for thier class.

 

Then you just "need " also and try and roll better , and dont forget to say to party that you are needing also to try and trip up a ninja. Then whisper the leader to boot the punk.

 

 

The inherent flaw in mmo's is the RNG system , when you down a boss they should give tokens instead of gear to roll on. That way the tokens can then be used for upgrades.

 

This way , you CANNOT be ninja'd or be subject to WOW's inbred training on how to be a d i c k.

[The_Archon]

Smarter != more fair.

 

RNG = zero fairness. Any intelligence is an improvement.

 

Falling back on the raw game mechanics run by the RNG for each and every item completely takes human common sense out of the equation. And it's incredibly lazy. And inefficient. The need vs greed distinction is there for exactly this reason; to give players a degree of input as to where the loot goes. Bioware does not expect everyone to roll need 100% of the time (and people who do are just pure d-bags, and should run with a like-minded guild full of other d-bags).

[Setanian]

If I'm helping bring down the boss, it most certainly IS my business. Something dropped for my class. I got lucky this run. No reason to pull a douche move and need it just because you technically "can". That's what sociopaths do. Are you a sociopath?

 

"Why should you get gear when I did not!?!?"

 

And the sun arose and bathed the entire argument in light.

 

You are jealous. Someone got some gear and you did not.

 

if something drops for your class and I can also use it, and, it does not state <class only> then I am as much entitled to roll on it as you. If you win, great, if you lose, you lose. That's it. You have no other argument other than some made up ideal in your head that you want us all to go along with.