ispanolfw Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 My argument is strawman because I'm playing off your logic of needing for companions..... What does that say about your argument? **The game doesn't define that whatsoever, the game gives everyone in the group the same entitlement to roll on it. ** Which is why Bioware needs to fix loot ASAP. No, you WANT them to change it ASAP. There is no NEED for them to change it to suit YOUR opinions. Now if they DO decide to change it, so be it, they make that choice. But saying they NEED to just proves the point of you wanting to push your opinion on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicksDigHarleys Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Exactly. Which is why we should move to a Roll/Pass system to avoid the loot drama. How is roll/pass going to remove drama? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 One more point I'd like to make: You're companion isn't running FP's with the group, why the heck do they need that drop when it will not benefit the entire group at that point in time?? Think about it. Someone brought this up a page or two back, and it wasn't any more right then. Have you considered the actual impact of this rule? - A Merc is healing for this FP. A blaster drops with better DPS, but it doesn't affect him then. He can't roll on it. - An Assassin flips his spec regularly from tanking to DPS, but is running DPS for this mission. He can't roll on the tanking item. - An item drops that has a level requirement higher than a character currently is - no roll allowed, because they won't be able to use it. - Something drops off the last boss of the mission, and all bets are off because there's no more benfit to be had. People really need to stop and take a step back on this. We started with "Only roll for things you can use" which is reasonable, but people thought was too broad. We've added more and more restrictions on what's "alloweable" to roll on, including items that have another class in the NAME of it, and only rolling on something that can help the group through the rest of that specific mission. I continue to find it incredibly ironic that the people screaming the loudest about courtesy and respect are the ones doing their best to tell everyone else what is and isn't an acceptable benefit to justify a roll. "You're playing wrong" is pretty much the most discourteous, disrespectful thing I can imagine saying to another player. I don't care whether someone uses all their companions, spends 99.9% of their time in open-world solo PvP with their companion, or cares absolutely nothing for stats and only for looks (either theirs or their companion). I respect "Need" to be "Something which will improve their game experience" and I leave that UP TO THEM. Will some potentially abuse that? Probably. But I'm smart enough to tell when that's happening, I think, and can respect people's playstyles without trying to impose my absolute rules on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 My argument is strawman because I'm playing off your logic of needing for companions..... What does that say about your argument? It's not a strawman because it includes the concept of companions being needed. It's a strawman because it takes that concept to its absolute, utmost extreme and tries to make a point off it. It's like saying saccharine causes cancer. Yes, it does - if you drink about four cases of diet soda a day, for a decade, yes, it will result in increased cancer. But bringing that into a debate on the merits of diet vs. regular soda is a strawman - it's an extreme position that while technically <ahem> true, doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Someone else ran the FP/Heroic with you hoping to get the very loot that was dropped. First off, no one actually Needs it, they just want it. Who's to say that their need/want for the item somehow trumps mine? What if the main reason I was running that FP was because I was hopping to get that bit of gear for my companion? If you don't care about other people's feelings, I'd ask you to question why you're even playing an MMO and to check your moral compass. Wow, huge personal attacks there. Somehow because I don't agree with you, I'm morally inferior to you? But when playing with other people who are taking the time to play with you in a group activity, don't make them suffer just because you want something that isn't suited for your class. Who's to say that it isn't suited to my class? Just because I don't equip it on my character that doesn't mean it's not going to provide me with a meaningful upgrade. It may provide me more of an upgrade if equipped on my companion then it would for you on your character. I play a Guardian spec'ed for defense, that means my DPS is on the low end. So something that gives Kira a big boost to DPS can be a huge increase for me, and will suit my class quite well, because it helps cover what is a short comming of my class. Why are you being so selfish and trying to make me suffer, just because you want the item too? It's not like I took it from you unfairly. We both had a equale chance of winning the item, assuming we both rolled need. We both contributed to defeating what ever it was, that gave us the loot. How is it I'm being selfish for rolling need on something that will be an improvement to my character, but you aren't? Edited January 27, 2012 by VanorDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 @ Creed_Buhallin: That's the thing, bro: we aren't going to convince our opposition of anything. We're all throwing digital ***** at the wall here, and hoping we come out less messy than someone else. Everyone's going to continue doing, in the game, what they've always been doing, or are inclined to do in the future. This said, it's why I acknowledge that it's fun to argue here, but no one's changing the way anyone else plays the game. That the moralist arguments are so thunderous and furious is amusing to me, all the more so because they don't contain anything objectively compelling, only entreaties by one perspective to have everyone else acknowledge the primacy of their perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) No, you WANT them to change it ASAP. There is no NEED for them to change it to suit YOUR opinions. Now if they DO decide to change it, so be it, they make that choice. But saying they NEED to just proves the point of you wanting to push your opinion on others. Nope, they NEED to because people can't be decent with the current system. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a fun time and a good group rather than loot drama because someone in the group thought they deserved everything that dropped. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain about someone rolling need on their main attributes. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain to someone who asks "Since no one else needed this, can I roll need on this for my companion?". In fact, most of the time, people are overly polite and say things like "Of course man! Thanks for asking first". With that sad, I've seen many groups fall apart completely due to someone needing blindly for companions/off spec (in WOW), needing for aesthetics or just needing because "the need button was lit up, so I clicked it". You can have your loot drama. I'll keep playing my way to avoid it rather than take the chance that I'll cause it. Edited January 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcutio Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 This is why I always form groups if I decide to use a pug. Somebody that would pull something like that would get booted from the group and blacklisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Nope, they NEED to because people can't be decent with the current system. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a fun time and a good group rather than loot drama because someone in the group thought they deserved everything that dropped. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain about someone rolling need on their main attributes. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain to someone who asks "Since no one else needed this, can I roll need on this for my companion?". I fact, msot of the time, people are overly polite and say things like "Of course man! Thanks for asking first". With that sad, I've seen many groups fall apart completely due to someone needing blindly for companions/off spec (in WOW), needing for aesthetics or just needing because "the need button was lit up, so I clicked it". You can have your loot drama. I'll keep playing my way to avoid it rather than take the chance that I ll cause it. It isn't an issue of decency, since you have no objective measuring stick by which to determine such. You only have subjective views on what constitutes "decency" to begin with. The loot, and the system for distributing it, is amoral. There's no point in ascribing moral significance to it since you don't have consensus on foundational concepts to begin with. Four people go in, four people down a boss, four people have a chance to roll on an item. If they roll Greed, they're accepting that someone might roll Need, and if they're unhappy with that, they can choose to improve their own chances of getting the item by rolling Need as well. By choosing "Greed", they're saying, "I'm fine if someone else gets this." If they aren't, in fact, going to be fine with that, they can likewise choose the top-priority loot roll. Attempting to ascribe priority above and beyond the in-game system is pointless, ineffective without unanimity, and largely an affectation of those who want to improve their own chances of getting something, all the while putting up a facade of "concern for the community's well-being". I don't think it's remotely close to something so altruistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Nope, they NEED to because people can't be decent with the current system. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a fun time and a good group rather than loot drama because someone in the group thought they deserved everything that dropped. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain about someone rolling need on their main attributes. - I've NEVER seen anyone complain to someone who asks "Since no one else needed this, can I roll need on this for my companion?". I fact, msot of the time, people are overly polite and say things like "Of course man! Thanks for asking first". With that sad, I've seen many groups fall apart completely due to someone needing blindly for companions/off spec (in WOW), needing for aesthetics or just needing because "the need button was lit up, so I clicked it". You can have your loot drama. I'll keep playing my way to avoid it rather than take the chance that I ll cause it. Still want, not need. Implying Need is saying it HAS to change, yet you only provide reasons for WANTING it to change. For example, if there was a bug that caused certain classes to not win items if they had the highest roll, that would be a needed change. Wanting something changed because you dislike or disagree with it is not a needed change. Wanted change sure, and if BW agrees, then so be it. But no matter what you say, or how you wish to rationalize it, it's not a NEEDED change. Drama arises because everyone has a different view on how things "should" work, and then one of them takes issue with someone doing it differently from that. I treat loot a certain way, and if someone else does not, so what? I roll, they roll, they win, more power to them. I lost that roll fair and square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Does everyone see how category one is to the effect of this thing makes me immediately better at what I am already doing. and category 2 is I want thing. No, lots of people see the truth: that both categories are actually the same, things that you want, for whatever reasons that you want them. and as for op and agent jacket I would drop group on spot and flame this individual at the start of every day as a ninja looter on fleet and whatever world I was on so everyone knew this person did this kind of stuff and they never got a group again.Personally, I suspect that you'll get yourself on more ignore lists than they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Nope, they NEED to because people can't be decent with the current system. But what if the current system is how they want it to work? I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a fun time and a good group rather than loot drama because someone in the group thought they deserved everything that dropped. I would too, which is why if I actually had some interest in the loot that might drop, I would make sure and make my desires known. The best thing to do, is to take a few moments before the group starts and make sure everyone knows what the loot rules will be. If after that people break the agreed upon rules then that's one thing. But if no one says "Don't roll need for companion gear" then you can not really blame someone for doing so, because they had no real reason to assume this was against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) You can have your loot drama. I'll keep playing my way to avoid it rather than take the chance that I'll cause it. This is deeply ironic coming from the guy who's [EDIT: on the side of people who have] threatened to drop groups, blacklist people, and intentionally sabotage groups over someone daring to roll need on something that you don't think they deserve to need. Guess what else doesn't create loot drama? Respecting someone else's opinion on their character, and what's enough of an improvement to justify a "need" roll. Edited for clarity - I wasn't going to bother going to back to see if Galbatorrix had specifically made those claims. Edited January 27, 2012 by Creed_Buhallin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Misquote much?No, I just checked. The text he had in quotes is indeed the text that was written. So he didn't misquote at all, let alone much. I can see you are one of those who will do whatever you want because you believe it is your god given right. That's fine and it is mine to leave and let you find a new Tank or Healer. Enjoy.Oh, I see what you're doing. You couldn't come up with a valid response, so you lied about him misquoting you and then added some insults. That doesn't really have the same sort of weight as a real argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 It isn't an issue of decency, since you have no objective measuring stick by which to determine such. You only have subjective views on what constitutes "decency" to begin with. The loot, and the system for distributing it, is amoral. There's no point in ascribing moral significance to it since you don't have consensus on foundational concepts to begin with. Four people go in, four people down a boss, four people have a chance to roll on an item. If they roll Greed, they're accepting that someone might roll Need, and if they're unhappy with that, they can choose to improve their own chances of getting the item by rolling Need as well. By choosing "Greed", they're saying, "I'm fine if someone else gets this." If they aren't, in fact, going to be fine with that, they can likewise choose the top-priority loot roll. Attempting to ascribe priority above and beyond the in-game system is pointless, ineffective without unanimity, and largely an affectation of those who want to improve their own chances of getting something, all the while putting up a facade of "concern for the community's well-being". I don't think it's remotely close to something so altruistic. What I don't get, honestly, is how you can't get the concept that a piece of gear with stats for a smuggler should go to the smuggler. You're acting as if every loot drop in the game is universal and everyone can equally use everything. Each FP has specific loot for each class. A lot of times, it is even named appropriately. How can you fault the IA for being upset because he lost the "Operative's Jacket" to the Marauder? Bioware created that loot for the IA class. Sure, you can roll need on that item too if you're a Marauder (and everything else that drops too for that matter), but how can you do so and feel good about it? This is not the way Bioware intended loot to work. Otherwise, they wouldn't have force fed you proper stat priority and also tried to appropriately name the drops to help people figure out who should get what. With that said, they will eventually fix it if it becomes a problem. It hasn't been for me so fat, but then again, I'm sure I've never groups with any of the people in this thread who seem to think it the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 What I don't get, honestly, is how you can't get the concept that a piece of gear with stats for a smuggler should go to the smuggler. You're acting as if every loot drop in the game is universal and everyone can equally use everything. Each FP has specific loot for each class. A lot of times, it is even named appropriately. How can you fault the IA for being upset because he lost the "Operative's Jacket" to the Marauder? Bioware created that loot for the IA class. Sure, you can roll need on that item too if you're a Marauder (and everything else that drops too for that matter), but how can you do so and feel good about it? This is not the way Bioware intended loot to work. Otherwise, they wouldn't have force fed you proper stat priority and also tried to appropriately name the drops to help people figure out who should get what. With that said, they will eventually fix it if it becomes a problem. It hasn't been for me so fat, but then again, I'm sure I've never groups with any of the people in this thread who seem to think it the norm. Perhaps I should be clear so you can be sure you have a proper understanding of my position. If a piece drops with class requirements that aren't the same as my class, I won't roll Need for it unless it's an orange item with mods in it that would benefit me or a companion as an upgrade. If a piece drops without a class requirement, I'm going to roll Need on it if it's an upgrade for me or a companion I typically use. If a piece drops that isn't an upgrade for me or a companion, in terms of either mods or the item itself, I'm going to roll Greed on it to make a few credits at a vendor. The thing to realize is this: as a player, it's not your business whether I "feel good" about something I do. Your involvement ends at the die roll, same as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 What I don't get, honestly, is how you can't get the concept that a piece of gear with stats for a smuggler should go to the smuggler. You're acting as if every loot drop in the game is universal and everyone can equally use everything. Each FP has specific loot for each class. A lot of times, it is even named appropriately. How can you fault the IA for being upset because he lost the "Operative's Jacket" to the Marauder? Bioware created that loot for the IA class. Sure, you can roll need on that item too if you're a Marauder (and everything else that drops too for that matter), but how can you do so and feel good about it? This is not the way Bioware intended loot to work. Otherwise, they wouldn't have force fed you proper stat priority and also tried to appropriately name the drops to help people figure out who should get what. With that said, they will eventually fix it if it becomes a problem. It hasn't been for me so fat, but then again, I'm sure I've never groups with any of the people in this thread who seem to think it the norm. Bolded the important part. How can you know this? All we can gather from how it works is that there is 2 or 3 rolls and a pass. One of those rolls is priority and is given to everyone who participated. This is what's called being fair. Would most people pass it to the smuggler? Sure, but there is no requirement of ANY kind to do so. And nothing about the loot system says they intended for it to work the way you want it to. If it was, it wouldn't be the system it is. And if they DID change the system, that system may have pitfalls as well. This system is about as neutral as you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atamosk Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You're the kind of person I love to win rolls againts for my companion i feel sorry for you thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 **But what if the current system is how they want it to work?** Why would they give you such an over abundance of hints and nudges on proper loot priority if that was the way they wanted it to work? Why name loot after specific classes if they wanted loot rolls to be a free for all? They let everyone need on everything because of companions. Heck, they may even encourage you to roll need for companions over other players in your group. Who knows. But, again, I jut think that humans should come before NPCs. Heck, on my Gunslinger, an awesome heavy aim helm dropped that would have looked awesome on Corso and would have been a huge upgrade. But, the Trooper in the group also needed it and I'd have felt horrible if I'd have won it over him. I gracefully passed. My way prevents loot drama and makes the run more pleasurable for all. You do what ever you want though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ** and is neither open to scrutiny from others, nor subject to their approval. ** Sure it is. If you don't want to be scrutinized for something that most players see as bad form, ask first. If you don't getting bashed is your own fault. If there truly was a consensus, or better yet an official definition of "need", I could see your stand on principal but, shifting the burden of communication on to someone who may well not be aware of your view on looting ettiquette is just an exercise in futility. Even if I agree with your point of view, I'd be just as annoyed at you for raising a stink over the issue and blasting the offending player while I have to sit through your punishing tirade as I would the offending player. What is your hesitance with stating your desires beforehand and clearing the air of potential friction? Your words will carry alot more weight as the reasoned advisor beforehand they will as the guy hotly complaining that he lost out on a piece of loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creed_Buhallin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 What I don't get, honestly, is how you can't get the concept that a piece of gear with stats for a smuggler should go to the smuggler. You're acting as if every loot drop in the game is universal and everyone can equally use everything. No, that's not what any of us are saying. What we're saying is that "need" is a personal thing, which cannot be defined by you. Trying to stop it at "It says Smuggler, so it's for the Smuggler!" and "It has Cunning so the Agent deserves it!" is incredibly shallow. We get the concept that the Smuggler can use the item with Smuggler stats. That doesn't mean he's the ONLY one who can, or even that he can use it the best. That's what you can't seem to get. Except I think you do get it. You've come up with excuse after excuse, justification after justification, and exemption after exemption for why no other use qualifies. You know there are other uses - you just think that your use (primary stats) should be the most important one out there, and you're going to throw a fit at anyone who disagrees. How could you sit there and tell someone like my wife, to whom character appearance is incredibly important, that you're going to kick her from a group, blacklist her, and spam general chat in fleet about how much of a ninja looter she is because she happens to care more about appearance than stats? Someone in that scenario is being incredibly rude, and has no concept of courtesy or respect. Hint: It's not the sharp-looking Operative sitting next to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 They let everyone need on everything because of companions. Heck, they may even encourage you to roll need for companions over other players in your group. Who knows. But, again, I jut think that humans should come before NPCs. I called out this part and put some italics because this is the crux of your argument. You're attempting to use your personal perspective as leverage to convince others of its rightness, when in fact it's just your approach. You might think it's how others should see things, which is natural, but it doesn't give what you want more weight than what another player wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispanolfw Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 **But what if the current system is how they want it to work?** Why would they give you such an over abundance of hints and nudges on proper loot priority if that was the way they wanted it to work? Why name loot after specific classes if they wanted loot rolls to be a free for all? They let everyone need on everything because of companions. Heck, they may even encourage you to roll need for companions over other players in your group. Who knows. But, again, I jut think that humans should come before NPCs. Heck, on my Gunslinger, an awesome heavy aim helm dropped that would have looked awesome on Corso and would have been a huge upgrade. But, the Trooper in the group also needed it and I'd have felt horrible if I'd have won it over him. I gracefully passed. My way prevents loot drama and makes the run more pleasurable for all. You do what ever you want though. Telling someone they shouldn't roll for something so someone else has a better chance of getting it is pleasurable? So now you're trying to tell me what is pleasurable for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartanik Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) They really need to add class restrictions to the need button. The problem won't go away until they do. The thing is its not a problem, it happens very rarely, with me in fact never happened. Its not like everyone is doing this... its not a problem imo. also you forget that not being good for his character, the item can be good and usable on companions. either way i never see that happen to me on in the groups im with, during flashpoints. Also the point that you can farm it solo after to farm for items, its pointless since by 50 you mostly got no use for those items.... If somenone did that to me i report him and ignore him for sure, and if able i would kick him of group right away. Edited January 27, 2012 by Spartanik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thordar Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Until BW will do something about this, we will have Drama every day, People will Need for Companions, mark my words, Welcome to Hell Drama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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