No Longer Camping Bases... Stand in Line for Free Valor...

[-Fenix]

Long post about DAOC.

 

What you're complaining about is not PVP rewards. You're talking about a ranking system. Totally different. Nobody is against that. I'm sick of gear being the sole reason for anyone PVPing. They don't care about anything else. Just gear and points.

 

SWG had a ranking system (later in the NGE at least), and you could buy cosmetic stuff at higher ranks and some buffs. That was fine. People killed people because they wanted to kill people. People held grudges. Imperial guilds warred with other Imperial guilds. PVP was about PVP. You could raid cities and camp guilds at their own city's cloner.

 

Since rewards entered the equation, that type of PVP has ceased to exist, for the most part. Carebears have taken over PVP as a result, which is why there are so many complaints about fairness/ganking/camping/griefing/overpopulation. PVPers don't care about that, they kill each other 24/7 because they like to PVP. Instanced PVP doesn't help with the situation either.

Edited January 20, 2012 by -Fenix

[Scoobings]

On Sword of Ajunta Pall we have a lot of Empire camping the Republic base, but a lot of people have noticed that if the Empire backs off and lets the Republic out, really awesome battles break out. The entire situation is a player created problem and it requires players to actually want to play the game for fun to work properly. Is there still tweaking to be done? Most certainly, Bioware has to think of new and creative ways to stop these boring ways for people to exploit. But you can not simply blame Bioware because people are too pathetic and lazy to actually play the game.

 

On Mandalore, something really weird happened. Maybe this is the norm, as I have been busy the past few days so I haven't had a lot of Ilum time. We were camping the pubs, and then all of a sudden we all started taking about 3000 damage a second from a blue colored damage source (the scrolling damage was blue, not red) for like 5 seconds. Most of the imperials died, and the ones that didn't got mopped up by the pubs.

 

I mean everyone took this damage, people hiding out of LOS, people running out of LOS and people who stayed in the open fighting.

 

After we all died, the pubs pushed out and there was a really fun fight for like... I dunno 15 seconds. Not all of them pushed out but enough to make it entertaining before they got toally swarmed and out numbered.

 

I think I'm going to try to talk everyone into fighting at Southern Assault next time I'm in Ilum. I doubt I'll be able to convince everyone to leave, but if I can I bet it would be fun.

[rawlingchamp]

rewards for pvp = death of pvp.

 

Perhaps all of the mmo devs will learn this lesson about 10 years down the road.

 

truth

[big_aug]

What you're complaining about is not PVP rewards. You're talking about a ranking system. Totally different. Nobody is against that. I'm sick of gear being the sole reason for anyone PVPing. They don't care about anything else. Just gear and points.

 

SWG had a ranking system (later in the NGE at least), and you could buy cosmetic stuff at higher ranks and some buffs. That was fine. People killed people because they wanted to kill people. People held grudges. Imperial guilds warred with other Imperial guilds. PVP was about PVP. You could raid cities and camp guilds at their own city's cloner.

 

Since rewards entered the equation, that type of PVP has ceased to exist, for the most part. Carebears have taken over PVP as a result, which is why there are so many complaints about fairness/ganking/camping/griefing/overpopulation. PVPers don't care about that, they kill each other 24/7 because they like to PVP. Instanced PVP doesn't help with the situation either.

 

No, I'm not talking about a ranking system. A ranking system would be nice, and I mentioned it, but that was not my point. I don't think you even read my post.

[Ichibukaka]

After this video was shot they all went outside and played basket ball. They just stood their own end of the court dunking the ball, then passing it to the other team to get a really high score that htey could brag about to their friends. Fix it NBA.

 

 

^This = Amazing.

[Scoobings]

People "farm" because the actual act that is intended is boring and tedious. My logic is that if I wanted to do straight PvP for the sake of killing people, I'd play a game designed for that (counterstrike).

 

That's not what I want. I want to PvP, get rewards, feel as if I'm becoming more powerful, and feel that it is meaningful.

 

If you played DAoC, then you should understand what I'm saying. Sure, some people farmed each other. But there were EPIC battles in the frontiers. 20-40 people on each side.

 

Small group vs small group was also hugely popular.

 

Not only was the PvP fun as hell, but you got great rewards for doing it. Why can't you have both? Getting PvP gear isn't even close. Everyone gets the same thing. At least in DAoC, there were various progression paths you could choose. Sure, some were basically mandatory, but there were definitely unique options for all classes.

 

Its been a while, but I remember a specific example on my Nightshade. The numbers aren't correct so just think of them as arbitrary. You could spend 10 points from realm rank and get Viper (I think that's what it was, been a while) which was an active ability that doubled the damage from each tick of your poisions. You could also choose to go a more passive route and buy a couple abilities for 5 each that gratned you bonuses to your stats.

 

Like I said, if I just wanted PvP, I'd play Counterstrike.

 

As I said... To what end? Why PVP then? Why not PVE? Why not just go play farmville? Why would you put yourself through the "tedium" of PVP if it bores you so much? Do something else with your life that doesn't bore you. I'd probably hate this game too if all I did was farm for digital pixels.

 

If you really hate PVP it seems kind of stupid to make yourself better at it. I absolutely hate math but I'm good at it. That doesn't mean I'm going to choose that as my field of study. I hate it, why would I want to do it for a job?

[yukirshiro]

Let's back up for a second. How is it exactly that a group of people coming together to exploit the system and afk farm the devs fault?

 

Becuase they designed a beyond brainless reward structure that encourages it?

 

How is it NOT the dev's fault for creating a system just begging to be exploited? It's doubly hillarious because they took one obviously broken system and replaced it with another just-as-obviously broken incentive system.

[EternalFinality]

The thing is - this isn't an exploit - this is just common sense.

 

Is it a rule that you must fight back all the time when an enemy faction member is near you?

 

Instead of combating the symptoms, maybe you should cure the problem with some better game design, Bioware?

[Scoobings]

What you're complaining about is not PVP rewards. You're talking about a ranking system. Totally different. Nobody is against that. I'm sick of gear being the sole reason for anyone PVPing. They don't care about anything else. Just gear and points.

 

SWG had a ranking system (later in the NGE at least), and you could buy cosmetic stuff at higher ranks and some buffs. That was fine. People killed people because they wanted to kill people. People held grudges. Imperial guilds warred with other Imperial guilds. PVP was about PVP. You could raid cities and camp guilds at their own city's cloner.

 

Since rewards entered the equation, that type of PVP has ceased to exist, for the most part. Carebears have taken over PVP as a result, which is why there are so many complaints about fairness/ganking/camping/griefing/overpopulation. PVPers don't care about that, they kill each other 24/7 because they like to PVP. Instanced PVP doesn't help with the situation either.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with instanced pvp by definition. I like having a place to have even matches and battles. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, I just think it becomes a problem when OWPVP goes completely forelorn.

[big_aug]

As I said... To what end? Why PVP then? Why not PVE? Why not just go play farmville? Why would you put yourself through the "tedium" of PVP if it bores you so much? Do something else with your life that doesn't bore you. I'd probably hate this game too if all I did was farm for digital pixels.

 

If you really hate PVP it seems kind of stupid to make yourself better at it. I absolutely hate math but I'm good at it. That doesn't mean I'm going to choose that as my field of study. I hate it, why would I want to do it for a job?

 

Where did you get any of this? When did I say that I don't enjoy PvP? I do enjoy PvP or, as you said, I wouldn't be participating in it.

 

I said if I wanted to participate in PvP STRICTLY for the purpose of killing other people, I'd play a game desined for that - Counterstrike.

 

I want more out of PvP in an MMO. What's so hard to understnad about that?

[Humboldt]

 

Seriously.. just turn off Ilum period. This was Yesterday after the patch.....

 

roflcopter

[EternalFinality]

After this video was shot they all went outside and played basket ball. They just stood their own end of the court dunking the ball, then passing it to the other team to get a really high score that htey could brag about to their friends. Fix it NBA.

 

Actually, it's more like Nike started sponsoring street ball games, and gives out a free pair of Air Jordans to anyone who scores 40 or more points in a game.

 

So instead of just 1 person sometimes getting the shoes, they figured out that if they just let each other score easily, EVERYONE can get the shoes from Nike!

 

Who's to blame? Nike with their flawed shoe-giving policy. Previously they just played street ball for fun. Now that you gave them a reason to get a high score you removed their incentive to have fun and replaced it with material gain - and you ruined basketball.

Edited January 20, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Scoobings]

The thing is - this isn't an exploit - this is just common sense.

 

Is it a rule that you must fight back all the time when an enemy faction member is near you?

 

Instead of combating the symptoms, maybe you should cure the problem with some better game design, Bioware?

 

Spoken like a true carebear.

[Noleader]

UO got up to over 250k before DAOC was a sparkle in the developers eye

 

EQ got up to 1.5 million around the same time DAOC was online (and was THE TOP MMO of DAOC's time)

 

Wow got up to what 15 million?

 

 

DAOC, while a good game with nice different mechanics in it was never ever ever the top mmo of its time.

 

Yet what you failed to address is all the MMOs that came and went since the beginning of time... 250K x 12.99 (what their sub costed back then) is good income and could be considered a success by any measure. Just because it did not do as well as others in the market does not mean it failed by default.

 

Also one might add that as a whole the DAoC community was a real community not just a bunch of guilds playing the same game. Something that I have yet to see replicated in any game since.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Noleader

[Scoobings]

Where did you get any of this? When did I say that I don't enjoy PvP? I do enjoy PvP or, as you said, I wouldn't be participating in it.

 

I said if I wanted to participate in PvP STRICTLY for the purpose of killing other people, I'd play a game desined for that - Counterstrike.

 

I want more out of PvP in an MMO. What's so hard to understnad about that?

 

You were the one who said it was tedious, not me, that's why I put it in quotes. If you like PVP, and want rewards then why not pvp for the rewards instead of trading kills on Ilum? How is that enjoying PVP?

 

This is the farmer's mentality that I've been talking about this whole time. It's what the thread is about. I couldn't give a **** if you think DAOC had a better PVP system (I'm inclined to agree with you) it's not the topic of the thread and this game isn't DAOC.

[-Fenix]

Where did you get any of this? When did I say that I don't enjoy PvP? I do enjoy PvP or, as you said, I wouldn't be participating in it.

 

I said if I wanted to participate in PvP STRICTLY for the purpose of killing other people, I'd play a game desined for that - Counterstrike.

 

I want more out of PvP in an MMO. What's so hard to understnad about that?

 

Ask for a Call of Duty MMO, then, I guess. Lol, I like killing players. I liked Voss before they killed PVP in the city. Mindless killing and camping. Was fun as could be. Only time it ever got old was when somebody with top tier PVP gear came in and took on 3 players at once and won against them. PVP gear and PVP rewards kill PVP.

Edited January 20, 2012 by -Fenix

[Lavath]

Pre 1.1 Ilum on my server consisted of a large amount of empire finding one or two republic at a given objective point and traded caping the area because that was the easiest way to get the daily done (which required no PvP). In fact, people got angry if you killed a republic player as they were so hard to find.

 

Post 1.1 Ilum: In a word, stupid. Now, people (read Empire) spend most of their time driving in circles --like kids who just got their permit-- around the center objective hoping to find one of the armament cases. If a republic player has the brass to step into that mess, they are swarmed like sea gulls to a piece of bread.

 

With the addition of the "invisible line of death" that acts as a doormat to each base, people have taken to having tug-o-war matches across the line. Pull someone in and watch them die. Pull someone out and have them swarmed.

 

Either way, I miss having group vs group PvP out in the open. One thing I liked about Aion (go ahead, get it out of your system) was that they forced population balance. This meant that each faction had just as much presence in an area as the other. You didn't get to a point where one side dominated simply because of subscriptions. Sure, you need faction leaders to keep what you take (or take back what you lose) but that's part of the fun.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Lavath

[Scoobings]

Actually, it's more like Nike started sponsoring street ball games, and gives out a free pair of Air Jordans to anyone who scores 40 or more points in a game.

 

So instead of just 1 person sometimes getting the shoes, they figured out that if they just let each other score easily, EVERYONE can get the shoes from Nike!

 

Who's to blame? Nike with their flawed shoe-giving policy. Previously they just played street ball for fun. Now that you gave them a reason to get a high score you removed their incentive to have fun and replaced it with material gain - and you ruined basketball.

 

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing proffessional basketball players that material gain ruined the game.

 

As it stands, to continue the analogy, Nike is giving out a pair of shoes every time 40 points are gained. Not just once. So those of us who aren't terrible have realized that if we keep scoring, and prevent the other team from scoring, we get more shoes.

 

Also, I feel like this analogy is getting tired, because I play this game specificly to avoid talking about shoes.

[big_aug]

Ask for a Call of Duty MMO, I guess. It seems like your more into e-sports than PvP.

 

You edited out the bold part.

 

And that's exaclty what I was arguing against. If I just wanted "e-sports" or "straight PvP" then I'd play Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or Battlefield 3.

 

I don't get why everyone thinks you can't implement a system that offers PvP with good character progression as well.

 

I suppose that would mean the developers would have to actually put some thought and work into it. We wouldn't want that now would we?

[EternalFinality]

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing proffessional basketball players that material gain ruined the game.

 

As it stands, to continue the analogy, Nike is giving out a pair of shoes every time 40 points are gained. Not just once. So those of us who aren't terrible have realized that if we keep scoring, and prevent the other team from scoring, we get more shoes.

 

Also, I feel like this analogy is getting tired, because I play this game specificly to avoid talking about shoes.

 

We're not professionals. We're paying to play TOR, not the other way around.

 

And it's game theory. If you fight all out against the other team, fewer total shoes are awarded. By cooperating, you maximize the amount of shoes paid out, and have the highest chance of getting them for yourself.

 

When rewards are on the line, and cooperation beats out competition, people choose cooperation, even in video games where it's supposed to be competitive.

Edited January 20, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Wyrmdale]

I see they have the best PVP coders in their team

[Scoobings]

You edited out the bold part.

 

And that's exaclty what I was arguing against. If I just wanted "e-sports" or "straight PvP" then I'd play Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or Battlefield 3.

 

I don't get why everyone thinks you can't implement a system that offers PvP with good character progression as well.

 

I suppose that would mean the developers would have to actually put some thought and work into it. We wouldn't want that now would we?

 

I agree we can get more out of the game in PVP, and I am 100% right there with you on that. I'm just arguing against the farming mentality.

[ImURmaster]

There only so much a game producer can do to promote "good" PvP. The players have a part too. The OPs video simple shows a whole bunch of fail players avoiding PvP on a PvP server. Please all of you reroll on Hello Kitty Online and let the rest of us slaughter one another without remorse or conditions. Edited January 20, 2012 by ImURmaster

[Noleader]

You were the one who said it was tedious, not me, that's why I put it in quotes. If you like PVP, and want rewards then why not pvp for the rewards instead of trading kills on Ilum? How is that enjoying PVP?

 

This is the farmer's mentality that I've been talking about this whole time. It's what the thread is about. I couldn't give a **** if you think DAOC had a better PVP system (I'm inclined to agree with you) it's not the topic of the thread and this game isn't DAOC.

 

No one brings up DAoC because they just want a DAoC clone. Most DAoC players, I count myself among them, HATED aspects of the game which we found relief from in WoW. Most notable of them was the Fin Tree in Hib where you spent hour after hour killing the same 3 (and every once and a while the rogue 4th) mobs to lvl from 44ish to 50.

 

The reason people, and I am included in that, bring up DAoC is because we just can't understand how one game could get PvP end game done so well yet have the MMO world completely ignore it. What all the MMOs copy is WoW's version of PvP for some reason while pretending no other game had figured out a good base concept for PvP yet.

 

It is more out of confusion people bring up DAoC then wanting to pimp the game or make SW:TOR a new DAoC. The confusion in how 10 years after its release the world of MMO developers pretend it never existed... also how Bioware, who took over the Mythic operations decided to copy the WoW version over the version they own the IP for (RvR).

[big_aug]

I agree we can get more out of the game in PVP, and I am 100% right there with you on that. I'm just arguing against the farming mentality.

 

The farming mentality is human nature. I agree that we shouldn't do it. However, when systems are put into place that allow it, there is no doubt people will take advantage of it. This is especially the case when you make it VERY EASY to do or MORE REWARDING than the act you should be doing.

 

The developers should have put in place things to save us from ourselves. That sounds funny/sarcastic, but it's the truth.

 

People can claim to be high and mighty and not participate in such things, but when presented the easy road or the hard road to the SAME REWARD, people will choose the easy road.

 

You need to make the hard road more rewarding or make the easy road so tedious and boring that even though you can get similar rewards, its not worth the time. Right now, it's the exact opposite.

 

It's the saem reason why people roll "FOTM" classes and builds. People aren't going to "gimp" themselves just for the hell of it. There has to be an upside to it as well.

 

And lets just say that the PvP in SWTOR isn't so freaking awesome that it outweighs getting the rewards in a more tedious fashion.

Edited January 20, 2012 by big_aug