Why people hate arenas

[DarthDurb]

Once Bioware irons out the issues with unresponsive controls they need to get cracking on arenas, ladder, and a web based character tracking system asap.

 

We need arenas because Ilum just proves that world pvp fails, is boring, and can never be balanced. Who actually goes to Ilum with the mindset "oh I want to pvp". Most people go with the intention "oh I have to do my daily". You are NEVER going to have balanced world PvP like that.

 

We need a ladder so we can distinguish the bad players from the good. This requires an ELO based matchmaking system. A players ranking should display beneath their name, that way when some low rated scrub posts some junk I can immediately discredit him and filter/ignore all their posts. Make sure ladder play rewards gear of the highest tier ( or looks much better ) so that the baddies who only play unranked Warzones can't get it.

 

This brings us to the stat tracking system. I want to see a comprehensive layout of a player's spec and whatnot. So if I see someone who is like lvl 30 trying to talk like he understands PvP, I can immediately call him out and ignore that player. We also need to see this stat tracking system so that good/pro players like myself can keep track of other players and make sure they don't try to take my Rank 1 title.

 

If you aren't a WoW gladiator,GW gold cloak,Masters League in SC2 or 2000+ ELO in LoL or equivalent please do not post, you are subpar and your opinion on competitive play/esports doesn't concern you.

 

Plus1 to this guy.

[MBirkhofer]

because you can not swap your class in an mmo.

 

Imagine you picked a class in team fortress. and that was the only class you can ever play in the game. It would be awful.

 

Arena's are like 90% class makeup. So being forced into a viable comp, kills good player interaction.

Granted, this is largely an issue with these mmo class designs. something more freeform, like a Diablo 2 class structure, or even Rift one, where soul swapping lets more player create more diverse builds potentially.(not saying rift nailed, as they kindof didnt..)

 

A mmo would have had to been built from the ground up, with arena in mind, for it to be viable.

Battlegrounds have more diverse objectives, tend to not be so rigid in class balance. More varied compositions are possible, as you can change your tactics based on that comp easier.

 

 

Here in Tor. Crit and RNG is a huge issue. This is compounded greatly by the presence of SURGE. Crit is already a RNG that really kills competitive play, where Luck should not be a factor. Surge making crits 90-120% damage(lol) means here in ToR, luck will always trump skill. A few lucky crits is game changing.

[Tyranoc]

Plus1 to this guy.

 

The rank system is announced and coming. So you wil lknow who is better than who.

 

Unfortunately for you there is no arena. And probably wont be.

 

Meaning you will get ranked on your PvP abilities in open world and/or warzones.

[Lazorous]

I think it is Guppy. Exactly when did pvp suddenly become all about "getting gear"? I thought "getting gear" was why people did endgame raiding, not pvp.

 

Have fun !

 

I agree. The only incentive I had for getting pvp gear in WoW was to be on the same playing field as others, so I wasn't completely trumped by someone who got their gear from getting carried by their guild. If it weren't for that, I take pleasure in besting equally skilled opponents, or laughing at failed gankings that started with their advantage.

[Sandoichi]

This game needs a skillful way to get PvP gear. Arena is the way to do it. I want to feel rewarded for the PvP I play and I want other players to strive to get better. That's how PvP remains fun.

 

If by 'skillful way to get PvP gear', you mean cosmetic gear, then sure. There is absolutely no reason that gear should be a factor in PvP. Stats should be normalized and balanced.

 

If you are skillful, then gear shouldn't matter. You should be able to stay better than other players without needing a stat advantage.

 

Any PvP rewards should be cosmetic only. The reason that gear works in PvE is because you aren't directly competing against other players. So if a guild has a world first raid kill because they all played 24/7 then congrats, they get nerd bragging rights. This, however, doesn't directly affect any other guild's ability to down that same boss.

 

In PvP, it is completely different. Stat differences directly affect other players. There is no skill in being more geared than someone else. Everyone complains that they want classes to be balanced and ****, but no one ever talks about removing gear stats from PvP. Balance classes all you want, it means little to nothing if you are wearing blues and fighting someone with full BM gear.

 

The reason that Arena in WoW killed PvP is because of the stupid gear that came with it. Stomping undergeared people all day to hold top ranks isn't skill at all, sorry. Arena season 1 was ok, but after that it turned into a complete joke.

 

Edit:

 

Also to add, MMOs in the e-sports world are a complete JOKE. Whoever thinks that WoW Arena is succesful as an e-sport knows nothing about professional gaming whatsoever. If you have been following pro gaming since the CPL, WCG, etc got started then you would know that all of the games that attract real crowds, have real money involved, and real skill are games where everyone starts with identical stats. Imagine if SC2 had account bonuses based on time played that gave all of your units increased health, damage, speed, etc. Or if quake had gear...rofl

Edited January 20, 2012 by Sandoichi

[EternalFinality]

because you can not swap your class in an mmo.

 

Imagine you picked a class in team fortress. and that was the only class you can ever play in the game. It would be awful.

 

Arena's are like 90% class makeup. So being forced into a viable comp, kills good player interaction.

Granted, this is largely an issue with these mmo class designs. something more freeform, like a Diablo 2 class structure, or even Rift one, where soul swapping lets more player create more diverse builds potentially.(not saying rift nailed, as they kindof didnt..)

 

A mmo would have had to been built from the ground up, with arena in mind, for it to be viable.

Battlegrounds have more diverse objectives, tend to not be so rigid in class balance. More varied compositions are possible, as you can change your tactics based on that comp easier.

 

 

Here in Tor. Crit and RNG is a huge issue. This is compounded greatly by the presence of SURGE. Crit is already a RNG that really kills competitive play, where Luck should not be a factor. Surge making crits 90-120% damage(lol) means here in ToR, luck will always trump skill. A few lucky crits is game changing.

 

That's coincidentally why gear works in TF2. A different pyro flamethrower isn't "better" - it's different. It provides a different tactical advantage or attack style. And in fact much of the alternate gear is highly situational.

[Lazorous]

It makes no sense to me.

 

It's like going to play some football, and then demanding after you win that you want special pads that will make winning easier next time.

 

The whole concept is so ANTI-competitive it blows my mind.

 

This is where a lot of things in sports are actually questionable, though. For example, the Olympic swimmers with deep pocket sponsors can supply the latest and greatest swimwear that can slice through water and decrease their time by seconds. But, a smaller country with a much smaller budget may not invest in such technology. And it's not like they're giving the same swimwear to everyone to even things out.

 

So even real world situations don't make a lot of sense.

[MBirkhofer]

That's coincidentally why gear works in TF2. A different pyro flamethrower isn't "better" - it's different. It provides a different tactical advantage or attack style. And in fact much of the alternate gear is highly situational.

 

absolutely correct.

 

Expertise is a stupid stat. I've said this as well. "pvp" gear should have things like +run speed, shield procs, etc. things that will let you create variation in your power in ways that are more obtuse then direct +damage x10.

Remember vanilla wow? the green emerald armor? put people to sleep when they attacked you?

We could say, that items like this are still an advantage. But really it would just add another layer of building an item build, that works into your strategy.

Edited January 20, 2012 by MBirkhofer

[BloatedGuppy]

This is where a lot of things in sports are actually questionable, though. For example, the Olympic swimmers with deep pocket sponsors can supply the latest and greatest swimwear that can slice through water and decrease their time by seconds. But, a smaller country with a much smaller budget may not invest in such technology. And it's not like they're giving the same swimwear to everyone to even things out.

 

So even real world situations don't make a lot of sense.

Epic Swimwear. +5 Speed, +5 Charisma.

 

Those damn noob countries just need to grind their OWN swimwear!

[hoax_]

People don't like the idea of skill-based PvP. They want it to be a faction-based zerg fest where they can hide anonymously spamming TRACER MISSILE and LIGHTNING BOLT and get hard when they crit, and start wanking in general chat about how good at PVP they are. These heroes cannot stand a 3v3 or a 5v5 because they are bad, but confronting them with this fact only makes them scream "ARENA IS NOT RP."

 

Sorry kids, balance > RP. This game will die without balance. That's the bottom line. If the game mechanics are a joke, telling people to "imagine it like this" fixes nothing. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

 

And, if roleplay is really what you want, go do some LARP. LIGHTNING BOLT!

 

I played an elemental shaman in wow. Don't bash lightning bolt dude.

[BloatedGuppy]

absolutely correct.

 

Expertise is a stupid stat. I've said this as well. "pvp" gear should have things like +run speed, shield procs, etc. things that will let you create variation in your power in ways that are more obtuse then direct +damage x10.

Speaking as a "melee" class, + run speed in any substantial quality would be crazy OP.

[Lazorous]

Epic Swimwear. +5 Speed, +5 Charisma.

 

Those damn noob countries just need to grind their OWN swimwear!

 

They need their guild to farm Michael Phelps every Tuesday.

[Cyphen]

Exactly what was said

 

""If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there.""

 

 

learn to read. quit pulling **** out of context and type a search into google.

 

You're just making your side look stupid on the issue.

 

Nicely said.

 

Blizzard did not think ahead, implementing an Arena to a already existing game was a pretty bad idea. After that they did not go around balancing things correctly either, rather it was a nerf/buff train since TBC.

 

Arenas has its advantages but also disadvantages like many things in life. When executed correctly, it can be ONE OF the funnest elements in an MMO.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Cyphen

[EternalFinality]

Speaking as a "melee" class, + run speed in any substantial quality would be crazy OP.

 

Not if it's:

 

1. A proc

 

or

 

2. Short duration on a cooldown

[ukikithemonkey]

Nicely said.

 

Blizzard did not think ahead, implementing an Arena to a already existing game was a pretty bad idea. After that they did not go around balancing things correctly either, rather it was a nerf/buff train since TBC.

 

Arenas has its advantages but also disadvantages like many things in life. When executed correctly, it can be ONE OF the funnest elements in an MMO.

 

So name an mmo that has done it properly. After all this time they are still not balanced in WoW, and I am sure SWTOR would have thr same problems.

[tzagrabski]

I can see it now, 90% of arenas are 5 sorcerers vs. 5 sorcerers. the rest are 3-4 sorcerers vs. 3-4 sorcerers.

[dopebeats]

I really don't understand, if you guys that played arena in WOW didn't like them why did you continue to play? Blizzard did not force you to play them to progress your character with the exception of the person who simply enjoyed BGs and wanted the best PVP gear. Atleast this applied to TBC and Wrath when I played(dunno about cata). If you enjoyed PVE content and hated arena why would arena at all. If you enjoyed arena but hated pvp there were still incentives to PVE (trinkets/weapons), but you could avoid and a still get glad easily if you were good. Yes, FOTM comps ran people over but they still had their countercomps which gave them trouble. Also you must realize that team synergies are what made arena fun to play and also what this game lacks in pvp atm. Take season 2 warrior/druid for instance, what made that 2s team so good was the mobility/cc of the druid and the peels that the warrior offered the druid. It still had soft counters (mage,rogue) and hard counters (lock,rogue or spriest,rogue). These counters weren't impossible matchups but they were not in the war/druids favor. I think what people need to learn is simply not all classes/specs will be balanced. But aslong as ever class has something viable and somethings not blatantly broken then we are ok. Take a look at marvel vs capcom 2, there were 4 characters that were clearly the best in the game. So much that team composition became either 3 of those 4 or 2 of those 4 with a good assist character. What was capcom's solution just break the whole game make everyone touch of death and give them xfactor, it removed alot of skill from the game but it almost every character in the game was viable or had some use. However, some people still play low-tier characters due to character loyalty or the thrill of a challenge and some of them very successfully due to strong fundamentals. In the same respect you would see good arena players playing alts with not so great gear and not-so-optimal classes/specs/compositions still easily getting 2300+ in arena simply because they had the fundamentals of arena down.

[Jansports]

Noone cares about opinions that aren't their own.

 

Obviously since I wasn't glad any season arenas were terrible and ruined pvp. How dare a system force me to be accountable for my own personal skill. HOW DARE IT.

[Luminant]

It's sad to see any opposition to "earning" your pvp gear. It's disgusting to see people being able to lose every fight and still get battlemaster gear/title. Warzone grinding is the most dated and boring mechanic ever.

[Vortx]

This is obvious. This is why skill-based games are not popular..

 

 

look at League of Legends, everyone plays it because there is no pressure. Get carried and brag about your K-D, if you lose just blame your teammates.

[dopebeats]

sry repost Edited January 20, 2012 by dopebeats

[Luminant]

This is obvious. This is why skill-based games are not popular..

 

 

look at League of Legends, everyone plays it because there is no pressure. Get carried and brag about your K-D, if you lose just blame your teammates.

 

League is successful because it appeals to the competitive players and the casual. League takes pride in having a competitive playerbase by posting their streams on their frontpage. Swtor should take some lessons and try and make this game competitive.

 

Edit: League also does NOT appeal to a grindy/playermoreyouwin type of game that swtor currently is.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Luminant

[HiSaZuL]

I really don't understand, if you guys that played arena in WOW didn't like them why did you continue to play? Blizzard did not force you to play them to progress your character with the exception of the person who simply enjoyed BGs and wanted the best PVP gear. Atleast this applied to TBC and Wrath when I played(dunno about cata). If you enjoyed PVE content and hated arena why would arena at all. If you enjoyed arena but hated pvp there were still incentives to PVE (trinkets/weapons), but you could avoid and a still get glad easily if you were good. Yes, FOTM comps ran people over but they still had their countercomps which gave them trouble. Also you must realize that team synergies are what made arena fun to play and also what this game lacks in pvp atm. Take season 2 warrior/druid for instance, what made that 2s team so good was the mobility/cc of the druid and the peels that the warrior offered the druid. It still had soft counters (mage,rogue) and hard counters (lock,rogue or spriest,rogue). These counters weren't impossible matchups but they were not in the war/druids favor. I think what people need to learn is simply not all classes/specs will be balanced. But aslong as ever class has something viable and somethings not blatantly broken then we are ok. Take a look at marvel vs capcom 2, there were 4 characters that were clearly the best in the game. So much that team composition became either 3 of those 4 or 2 of those 4 with a good assist character. What was capcom's solution just break the whole game make everyone touch of death and give them xfactor, it removed alot of skill from the game but it almost every character in the game was viable or had some use. However, some people still play low-tier characters due to character loyalty or the thrill of a challenge and some of them very successfully due to strong fundamentals. In the same respect you would see good arena players playing alts with not so great gear and not-so-optimal classes/specs/compositions still easily getting 2300+ in arena simply because they had the fundamentals of arena down.

because a clown who died 3 times a week could steamroll me and my full t6 just because he had resilience?.... sry i rolled on pvp server and loved world pvp i guess its too much to imagine that it was actually alive once upon a time. i know its hard to grasp but people used to pvp not in bgs or arenas but u know... open world... imagine that...

and way to compare an rpg mmo with fighting game... you sir are brilliant i mean those 2 genres have pretty much everything in common.

theres a marvelous interview with blizzard dev who said he would either design everything before they launched differently to turn it into e-sport or never should have included arenas. if even devs admit it was a mistake in clear and not roundabout fasion then perhaps its just you... and your need to tell people u are so 1337 haxor because with every patch u roll a different toon. that is currently best for arenas. yay for you. go play shooters if you care about that so much. nothing needed besides good reflexes and eyes and u can always brag how u roflcoptered those n00bz with a pistol headshots.

[Sandoichi]

It's sad to see any opposition to "earning" your pvp gear. It's disgusting to see people being able to lose every fight and still get battlemaster gear/title. Warzone grinding is the most dated and boring mechanic ever.

 

once again any gear earned should be cosmetic to show accomplishment but have 0 effect on stats. If you are so skilled than you shouldn't need all kinds of stat boosters to keep winning matches. BTW if you are the BM Marauder "Luminant" who streams on twitch, then you are a walking example of someone who just warzone grinded 24/7 to get battlemaster and still play like a level 30. You are the poster child for someone who gets carried by gear. I almost rerolled off my sentinel after seeing how poor you performed as a battlemaster, but once I got him to 50, I just realized you are terrible at PvP. Also sad that you had your friends post on your reddit stream announcement under new accounts to hype you up into something you aren't. If you aren't that Luminant, then my mistake

 

and to the guy who said that no one forced you to play arena in WoW if you didn't like it: yes, that is correct however arena directly affected every other pvper in the game since the area gear could be used outside of arena. Therefore you are always at a disadvantage in stats unless you play arena, therefore you are FORCED to play arena to have a balanced, equal fight with another player who did play arena. This further reinforces why armor stats in PvP are completely retarded.

[Jesmcalli]

Arenas are lame, always have been, always will be. Look at WoW, it's not skill, it's fotm comps and gear that win 99% of the time.