Assassins are objectively worse than sorcerers (and other ranged DPS) in PVE

[Arek]

My guild is now 5/5 16m nightmare EV, and I can say in PvE I feel way more useless than other classes. Sure, we do quite a bit of damage (probably on par with others in the long run), but our mobility is AWFUL, we bring absolutely ZERO utility to the raid, and are forced into melee range where "bad things" happen most often.

 

Ok, so I can avoid a force/tech attack every minute. Horray? Marauders can pretty much stop a boss from attacking for 6 seconds, can heal their party AND increase their party's damage and healing by 15%, snipers get a 20% raid-wide damage shield and immunity to knockback effects, sorcerers get battle resurrect and shields despite being there for DPS roles, mercenaries can heal themselves when in trouble, heck even DPS juggs can reduce damage on a target for 6s while jumping to a safe area / into combat, etc, etc.

"But you are tank/dps not dps/dps"... Bull! Why is Saber Charge so much better than Deflection, even though Marauders don't get the option to tank?!

 

We also have the worst innate AoE in the game, I'm pretty sure. Lacerate is -awful- even when talented, and death field isn't that great in the long run given its cooldown. The internal cooldown for Saber Charges needs to be PER-TARGET at the very least.

 

Overcharge Saber and Blackout have extremely long animations that you need to time correctly to cancel otherwise you stand there for 2 or so seconds doing nothing but waving your hand...

 

I can't believe nothing has been done to the class yet. This is another case of PvP nonsense carrying into PvE where it doesn't belong. I'd be happy with SOME form of raid utility (raid-wide lesser force shroud?) and the equivalent of force charge. Hell, make the force charge / shadowstep thing put a 15s cooldown on Force Speed or whatever, I just want to be able to attack when every other class can.

[Lgrayman]

So although people think Bioware can't balance classes you magically trust the fact that they're completely correct in saying all DPS do the same DPS without ever being able to verify it?

 

No, but extensively grouping with others has shown this to mostly be the case. However, the main thing is that Bioware are aiming for this so it's important to note how that is flawed because if and when they do get it equal, assuming it isn't, it won't be equal due to the issues I listed.

[Ulfulf]

Yeah, melee in general was clearly not considered when designing PvE content from what I've seen thus far.

 

basically this.

the whole pve content of the game isn't very melee friendly.

but well.... that's a common mmo mistake, considering games like wow (which i never played) aoc (not so much like others) or rift.

[Sabbathius]

The assassins need some serious attention.

 

Every class needs some serious attention, to be honest. Whether it's buffs, nerfs or a complete teardown job depends on the class.

[Sylriana]

The reason Assassins are left out of groups is that every other character is one and that 75% of them don't have a clue what they are doing.

 

Really? I think I've only seen two assassins in my entire time playing this game.

[kainsec]

Yes PvE punishes all melee classes (Ops/Sco the worst bc of their lack of any distance closer). This is a throw back to more standard MMO designs where Melee deals more damage than range.

 

However, here the damage isn't by any means in wide favor of melee. So Ranged classes have a much better DPS bc they don't have to run after mind traps then run straight back to Soa, or dodge gharj pounces, or massive kb from anni droid ect ect ect.

 

There are however, some bosses that do punish ranged usually disproportionately to sniper/gunslinger over the other ones. I do hope future content will have more bosses that punish ranged to balance out the scales. Right now I would always rather be in a ranged heavy group over a melee heavy group.

[Lgrayman]

At the very least it'd be really nice if Bioware could give us the option to switch advanced classes; I'd change to a class that's actually good like sorcerer in a heartbeat. I just don't see them changing assassin in all the ways it needs in order to be as good as sorcerer.

[Kelticfury]

@OP - You realize that even though assassins get the same "inquisitor" abilities, they aren't sorcerers right?

 

Instead of having sorcerer envy, learn to use the tools you have, or reroll a sorc I guess.

[Lgrayman]

@OP - You realize that even though assassins get the same "inquisitor" abilities, they aren't sorcerers right?

 

Instead of having sorcerer envy, learn to use the tools you have, or reroll a sorc I guess.

 

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously didn't read the post. And yeah, I might reroll a sorcerer if Bioware doesn't fix things.

[Kelticfury]

Really? I think I've only seen two assassins in my entire time playing this game.

 

they are the dudes with the dbl lightsabers. on my server you can't spit without hitting an assassin.

[Kelticfury]

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously didn't read the post. And yeah, I might reroll a sorcerer if Bioware doesn't fix things.

 

Well, I see lots of assassins doing very well, and your OP is comparing melee to ranged, and an over powered ranged for starters.

 

Ranged vs melee will always appear ranged is better due to not needing to close gaps. I haven't played an assassin up to very high level, just because I hate the squish factor, but there are many successful assassins. Maybe do a search on youtube for assassin pve? You might find some good strategies there. Also, i hear that assassins have a pretty steep learning curve to play them well.

 

When i first started swtor I was clueless, and watching some vids on youtube has really helped me to learn my classes (I am a huge altaholic).

 

Sorry its sucking for you, but there are steps you can take to get better while waiting on Bioware to balance things better.

 

Personally when i find a class to not meet my expectations I try another class.

[moladar]

I played a melee class in WoW for about 4 years, always felt that it was unfair how easy ranged had things. Finally raided as a warlock in Cataclysm, and I have to say how boring it was compared to melee. Melee presents challenges that are easy for a ranged to overcome, but the satisfaction that I derive from successfully overcoming these challenges AND beating ranged dps makes playing all the more worth it. I understand the frustrations the OP is talking about, but this is classic MMO melee design. If you don't want to deal with these frustrations, the best idea for you would be to simply roll another class. I personally love the challenges that being a melee presents.

[Lgrayman]

Well, I see lots of assassins doing very well, and your OP is comparing melee to ranged, and an over powered ranged for starters.

 

Ranged vs melee will always appear ranged is better due to not needing to close gaps. I haven't played an assassin up to very high level, just because I hate the squish factor, but there are many successful assassins. Maybe do a search on youtube for assassin pve? You might find some good strategies there. Also, i hear that assassins have a pretty steep learning curve to play them well.

 

When i first started swtor I was clueless, and watching some vids on youtube has really helped me to learn my classes (I am a huge altaholic).

 

Sorry its sucking for you, but there are steps you can take to get better while waiting on Bioware to balance things better.

 

Personally when i find a class to not meet my expectations I try another class.

 

Well I appreciate your friendly advice, but I think I have a decent grasp of the class and know how to play it. It's not unplayable; it's just worse than sorcerers and all other ranged DPS, and I wanted to point this out in the thread with facts and list my suggestions to fix it. Hopefully Bioware will listen.

 

I played a melee class in WoW for about 4 years, always felt that it was unfair how easy ranged had things. Finally raided as a warlock in Cataclysm, and I have to say how boring it was compared to melee. Melee presents challenges that are easy for a ranged to overcome, but the satisfaction that I derive from successfully overcoming these challenges AND beating ranged dps makes playing all the more worth it. I understand the frustrations the OP is talking about, but this is classic MMO melee design. If you don't want to deal with these frustrations, the best idea for you would be to simply roll another class. I personally love the challenges that being a melee presents.

 

 

I see where you're coming from, sorcerers do seem like easy mode in comparison. But it'd be nice if they at least tweaked some things such as giving assassins comparable CC/utility etc. In WoW people often expected rogues to do more damage to make up for their constant need to move around and be in range of all knockbacks/AoE etc, but in this game Bioware wants everyone's DPS to be equal.

[DarthNorik]

I'm gonna assume the OP is a deception assassin. Because Madness doesn't have all these problems and the only class that does more damage is a sniper. We out damage every other range class. The only class that does more pve damage than us is a marauder, and we have the better buff, plus the ability to still dps from range, AND we can battle res thanks to force cloak.

 

Please stop all this crying, theres already a thread talking about how deception assassins want to be rogues and mad they can't be, go to that thread.

[Lgrayman]

I'm gonna assume the OP is a deception assassin. Because Madness doesn't have all these problems

 

Whoa, awesome. I'm going to go spec madness then, because I had no idea that it gave you a CC ability that can instantly be used in combat and works on droids, in addition to never having to get into position for things like maul (and never being in melee or having to move into a further range than 30m ever), or gave you a AoE ability as good as force storm! Thanks for informing me!

 

and the only class that does more damage is a sniper. We out damage every other range class. The only class that does more pve damage than us is a marauder

 

Um, no. The fact that we have to move around so much in comparison to sorcerers (even if specced madness, which is generally considered worse DPS-wise than deception) keeps us from being as good as them. We are worse in every way, from DPS, to utility, to AoE.

 

Please stop all this crying, theres already a thread talking about how deception assassins want to be rogues and mad they can't be, go to that thread.

 

What thread is that? The PVP one? I hate PVP in MMOs so have no intention to get involed in that discussion. As for the 'crying,' it's called constructive criticism.

[DarthNorik]

Whoa, awesome. I'm going to go spec madness then, because I had no idea that it gave you a CC ability that can instantly be used in combat and works on droids, in addition to never having to get into position for things like maul (and never being in melee or having to move into a further range than 30m ever), or gave you a AoE ability as good as force storm! Thanks for informing me!

 

 

 

Um, no. The fact that we have to move around so much in comparison to sorcerers (even if specced madness, which is generally considered worse DPS-wise than deception) keeps us from being as good as them. We are worse in every way, from DPS, to utility, to AoE.

 

 

 

What thread is that? The PVP one? I hate PVP in MMOs so have no intention to get involed in that discussion. As for the 'crying,' it's called constructive criticism.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-May-The-Force-Be-With-You-managing-the-Sith-Assassin-s-Jedi-Shadow-s-resources?pid=6997#pid6997

 

This post says hello, deception doesn't do close to the damage of madness, so please stop talking. And for raids we also bring the ability to battle res thanks to force cloak which only operatives also bring.... Let me know when was the last time you saw a range class pull aggro from a boss in an operation that wasn't a sniper....

[Lgrayman]

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-May-The-Force-Be-With-You-managing-the-Sith-Assassin-s-Jedi-Shadow-s-resources?pid=6997#pid6997

 

This post says hello, deception doesn't do close to the damage of madness, so please stop talking. And for raids we also bring the ability to battle res thanks to force cloak which only operatives also bring.... Let me know when was the last time you saw a range class pull aggro from a boss in an operation that wasn't a sniper....

 

The other day in Karagga 16 man when a sorcerer pulled. It's just common sense that sorcerers (and all ranged) do more because they don't have the burden of having to constantly move into range, and move out of AoE/knockback as much as melee.

 

As for that post, it's very theorycrafty and can't fully take into account everything but yeah, maybe madness is the best. It still doesn't make up for the lack of good AoE, CC, and the fact that even with madness you need to get in range constantly to do things like maul and need to move more often than ranged due to boss AoE/knockback.

 

As for the vanish/res thing, that rarely even works for me because the game is so buggy and it still counts me as in combat when I do it. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware removed the ability to do it entirely at some stage. Not to mention that I like to have force cloak so I can use it to get dark embrace.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Lgrayman

[DarthNorik]

Just like its common sense that deception does the most dps right? Thats just your opinion. And I have an AOE ability that does 4k and has 30m range? Could Lacerate use a buff, maybe. But thats it. And the other issue you mentioned applies to all melee classes, so stop crying about assassins.

[Invitcted]

1. CC not working on droids is bad but this is BW's fault for making half the enemies in the game droids

 

2. In a raid all melee dps should always be behind the the boss anyway for conals or cleaves so complaining about needing to do it for backstabs is moot. As for running in well every melee dps has had to do it since the beginning of time and the second of dps you lose isn't going to mean much without a parsing tool.

 

3. The titanic amount of boss centered aoes and kbs while never doing anything at ranged ever is again BW's bad design not the classes fault.

 

4. Lack of aoe is bad but lets be fair you aren't going to get kicked for pulling bad numbers on trash, having strong aoe is good for quality of life while questing but not fundamental to the class in raid (trash doesn't matter).

 

5. Deception is the arguably more pvp and definitely the most martial of the specs, being all about stealth and burst and strictly melee is bad for pve always has been. Not to mention madness also has the advantage of dots and stronger ranged abilities you are pretty much always going to parse lower unless you have 100% up time on the boss assuming perfect balance.

 

(I play a madness sin btw)

 

In range's defense though about boss fights BW has to be care about adding ranged mechanics because a sorc doesn't play like a Cata caster, because we don't have arena or the pvp arms races yet (fingers crossed for ever). SWTOR casters are more 'cast,cast,cast, channel', cast then Cata's 'Dot, cast, run, instant cast proc, dot proc, cast'. So mechanics that exclusively effect range are more likely to more intensely lower dps then it would against a Cata ranged player or a melee player.

That said I still affirm my position it's BW's lazy boss design that lead to all of their abilities being boss centered aoes.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Invitcted

[Caelrie]

Eh he has a point...

 

No he doesn't. Assassins aren't being denied groups because they're assassins. If you get told no, it's likely because there's already an assassin in the group.

[Lgrayman]

Just like its common sense that deception does the most dps right? Thats just your opinion. And I have an AOE ability that does 4k and has 30m range? Could Lacerate use a buff, maybe. But thats it. And the other issue you mentioned applies to all melee classes, so stop crying about assassins.

 

 

Nope, I never said it was common sense that deception did the best. I said I thought it was generally agreed upon that it was the best because most DPS assassins I see are deception specced and the assassin guide thread here recommends it. I was open to the possibility of it being worse than madness though and think you might be right, though one theorycraft post doesn't necessarily prove that.

 

And I really find people like you who see any sort of constructive criticism and go "OMG STOP CRYING!!" pretty silly. The world would still be stuck in the dark ages if we never looked to improve things, which is what I am doing. Yes, other melee classes do suffer from similar things, but I can't speak for them as I don't play one, only for assassins; I would hope that they are posting similar things in their class forums.

 

"Let's assume for a moment that assassins have equal DPS with sorcerers - Bioware has stated they want everyone to have equal DPS. Okay, so a boss fight begins, and a sorcerer starts attacking the boss. The assassin? He stealths, he takes time to get into range, he has to get behind the boss which often means moving around because it will shift targets from tank to off-tank, etc or just move around as part of the fight's mechanics. All the while, sorcerers and other ranged DPS are casually continuing their rotation, never even having to move out when the boss does AoE, knockbacks, and so on. As a result, assassins will naturally do significantly less DPS than them."

 

This mostly applies to assassins regardless of their specialisation - even madness specialised assassins still have to use melee abilities and are closer to the boss than ranged. You can't just disregard basic logic and say "Nah assassins are as good even though they have to move constantly whereas ranged DPS, especially sorcerers, can constantly DPS without hindrance! Also I'm going to disregard your completely valid points about our garbage utility."

 

 

 

 

1. CC not working on droids is bad but this is BW's fault for making half the enemies in the game droids

 

Glad you agree.

 

2. In a raid all melee dps should always be behind the the boss anyway for conals or cleaves so complaining about needing to do it for backstabs is moot. As for running in well every melee dps has had to do it since the beginning of time and the second of dps you lose isn't going to mean much without a parsing tool.

 

Correct, all melee DPS should be behind the boss. If you have actually played in raids though, you will know that bosses often switch targets as part of their mechanics, often move around and change direction, meaning the melee DPS has to change position, during this ranged continues damaging. Also we have to move out a lot more due to AoE/knockback etc, and won't sart DPSing until we get back into range - not a problem for ranged. Over the course of a long boss fight, this will obviously add up and result in significantly less DPS.

 

3. The titanic amount of boss centered aoes and kbs while never doing anything at ranged ever is again BW's bad design not the classes fault.

 

Correct. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with statements like these, you're basically saying "Yes, you're right about this." but seem to be thinking you're countering my points?

 

4. Lack of aoe is bad but lets be fair you aren't going to get kicked for pulling bad numbers on trash, having strong aoe is good for quality of life while questing but not fundamental to the class in raid (trash doesn't matter).

 

It's just silly for the assassin to be worse in every way than the sorcerer and to not have any reason to bring them along to groups. In a flashpoint or an operation if you can choose between a sorcerer and an assassin, it's obvious who you're going to bring along when sorcerers will help clear trash much faster, provide great CC, and probably do more DPS / die less often due to not having to be so up close and personal.

 

5. Deception is the arguably more pvp and definitely the most martial of the specs, being all about stealth and burst and strictly melee is bad for pve always has been. Not to mention madness also has the advantage of dots and stronger ranged abilities you are pretty much always going to parse lower unless you have 100% up time on the boss assuming perfect balance.

 

(I play a madness sin btw)

 

I'd say deception is the most popular PVE spec, but yeah maybe you're right. It doesn't need to be bad though, there are easy ways to make it viable which I have lined out in bullet points in the OP.

 

 

 

No he doesn't. Assassins aren't being denied groups because they're assassins. If you get told no, it's likely because there's already an assassin in the group.

 

 

Wrong. In Kaon Under Siege for instance, the optional fight goes a lot smoother and indeed may not even be doable unless you have 2 CCs for the droids. Assassins, then, who have an abysmal CC that cannot even be used on droids or in combat, are often left out of such groups in favour of good classes like sorcerers.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Lgrayman

[Nymaeria]

Correct, all melee DPS should be behind the boss. If you have actually played in raids though, you will know that bosses often switch targets as part of their mechanics, often move around and change direction, meaning the melee DPS has to change position, during this ranged continues damaging. Also we have to move out a lot more due to AoE/knockback etc, and won't sart DPSing until we get back into range - not a problem for ranged. Over the course of a long boss fight, this will obviously add up and result in significantly less DPS.

 

I disagree. This is the first time a melee DPS character has been my main in an MMO and I'm not having any difficulties following my rotation while staying in range and behind the mobs. Yes, being melee I move a lot more than ranged DPS but it IS possible to attack while moving. Especially since none of the abilities in our primary rotation have a cast time.

 

Running out to avoid knock-backs and pbAoE's does suck but it's par-for-the-course when playing a melee character. If it bothers you that much, melee is perhaps not the role you should be playing.

 

I haven't seen anything as to BioWare's balancing goals but if they are trying to keep all DPS rolls doing roughly the same DPS, I think it's a pretty terrible goal (and one they're failing at, currently). A class that requires more set up (ie. has to be in stealth, has to run into range, etc.), is at higher risk (hugging a mob's butt is inherently more dangerous than standing 20-30 meters away), and has to react to the majority of the encounter's mechanics (avoiding pbAoE's, avoiding knock-backs, etc.) should do slightly more damage.

 

I do agree that Deception could use a little work to improve PvE viability. Some sort of teleport (eg. Shadow Step) would be nice. As it is, I just use Force Speed to get into position at the start of a fight. No, it's not quite as awesome as Force Charge, but it works for me. Also, as it's cool-down isn't ridiculously long, it's usually up again when I need to get back in position after a pbAoE.

 

Now, when I chose to be an Assassin, I kind of assumed AoE damage wouldn't be my strong suit. Assassins typically (in literature and film) shine at taking out single enemies. That said, I am extremely saddened by Lacerate. For me, it does about 700 damage to everything it hits (I'm in mostly Columni gear) and the tool-tip says it hits all mobs rather than having a maximum number of targets (though I haven't tested to see if that is indeed true). Unfortunately, it does not do nearly enough damage to warrant the force cost.

 

Pretty much the only ability that I think needs it's damage increased is Assassinate. My Mauls are criting for 3.5-4k but my Assassinates are 2.5-3k. Doesn't seem like an appropriate amount for a finisher type ability only useable once your target is below 30%. Especially when the damage from the main ability in my rotation (Voltaic Slash) adds up to roughly the same amount of damage as my Assassinate.

 

TL;DR

- Yes, the Sin's Deception tree could use a little work (as could many trees of other classes).

- All classes' melee trees should have slightly higher base damage than ranged.

- Lots of movement is part of being melee, if you can't cut it, roll ranged.

- Some sort of teleport (eg. Shadow Step) would be nice, but Force Speed works okay for me.

- Lacerate should have it's force cost lowered.

- Assassinate should have it's base damage increased.

- Force Cloak should also remove all harmful effects (ie. DoT's) in PvE. Force Shroud should be for the Darkness tree.

- Increase Whirlwind's base duration to at least 15 seconds to give us a little more utility.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Nymaeria

[Invitcted]

I wasn't blindly countering you I was giving my opinion on the points brought up in this thread if I agree with you I agree with you if not I don't?

 

 

Your argument basically boils down to 'why is hunter/mage/priest more dps then warrior/shaman/rogue' it's even older then WoW really. The assassin suffers no more from this then any other melee dps (except operatives who suffer more because they need backstabs more and don't have a gap closer). I've already give my totally anecdotal theory (other the bad/lazy programming) about why BW has been hesitant to add ranged mechanics.

 

At this point in the game there is no great reason the complain about it though if you're really being denied groups because you're melee then you're either grouping with scrubs or people who think they're good but aren't. I'm in a guild composed of ex hardcore raiders (myself included) who play more socially now (small close guild) and we've smashed down a lot of raid content with a 'more melee heavy then any of the old raiders in us would really like' team without to many dramas.

Again anecdotally I seem to win the fight on the infernal council more then any other class so I don't think our dps is hurting that bad.

 

The optional Koan boss while a good example of why only having sap and over 50% of all opponents being droids hurts us CC wise is still arguably the most overtuned thing (relative to the level of content) in the entire game (Tied with the stacking droid in kaga's palace).

[acheros]

Now that I think about it. I probably should of posted the thread in the assassin sub-forum, But i just posted this before I noticed this thread.

 

 

So, recently I've been having some trouble with certain bosses. These are bosses in the class story line, so it should be perfectly tuned for an assassin, right?

 

Wrong. Everytime I ask anyone for advice they assume im a sorc, or a tank. Saying "Oh just keep khem shielded" or "Use talos and keep your shields up" I've asked a few people about it, and almost everyone agrees that assassin DPS is horrible.

 

Can we get it looked at, bioware..? please..

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=249970

 

Every time, assassins seem to be extremely under powered for PVE, we have no real survivability, and we have slight burst damage. But in long fights we're garbage.

[Nymaeria]

Now that I think about it. I probably should of posted the thread in the assassin sub-forum, But i just posted this before I noticed this thread.

 

So, recently I've been having some trouble with certain bosses. These are bosses in the class story line, so it should be perfectly tuned for an assassin, right?

 

Wrong. Everytime I ask anyone for advice they assume im a sorc, or a tank. Saying "Oh just keep khem shielded" or "Use talos and keep your shields up" I've asked a few people about it, and almost everyone agrees that assassin DPS is horrible.

 

Can we get it looked at, bioware..? please..

 

Every time, assassins seem to be extremely under powered for PVE, we have no real survivability, and we have slight burst damage. But in long fights we're garbage.

 

I have noticed that people tend to assume all assassins are sorcs or tanks. But maybe you should state that you are deception speced in your post. Then, if people tell you to use an ability that isn't in your build, you can safely call them an idiot and disreguard anything else they say. ^.^

 

Until I got Talos, I occasionally had some minor troubles with some parts of my class quest. One thing it seems a lot of people neglect to do is interrupt. Our base interrupt is on a twelve second cool-down but we also have a stun (electrocute), a cc (whirlwind), and a knock-back (overload) that interrupt enemy casts. Use them.

 

Our survivability isn't amazing but if you put on Dark Charge, you gain a lot more mitigation and don't really sacrifice too much damage.

 

Once you get Talos, the class quests are easy as pie. Throw on Dark Charge and destroy the enemy while Talos hangs out at range and heals you. If you find Talos has gotten behind on healing, whirlwind the enemy and let him catch up. Also, I keep all his damage abilities turned off for important encounters to ensure that he isn't wasting resources on damage when I need to be healed.

 

Happy questing!