SWTOR-FAILED due to POOR Design. Hope other MMOs learn from this!

[jaytrust]

EDIT TO INSERT-(Don't use its still new only been a month as an excuse for the poor design, that has nothing to do with the game being new, it could have been new and been designed with a good pvp system<this isn't about bugs/though they make things worse, little Ilum fiasco>)

 

Anyway I might be a little extreme here, but it looks like the death of most MMO's revolve around PVP... Hopefully its not too late!

 

Seriously though, guys I understand you love this game(hint hint- I do too)

 

But unless we voice whats wrong with it, they won't improve it.

 

For one PVP is super broken.

 

I would argue that little to no planning was done by those in charge of pvp.

 

Why not look at the epic fails of other MMO's and learn from them(this is RIFT all over again)? Seems like a common sense thing to do.

 

I'm not part of the development team but I can name about 10 guys in my guild who can fix most of the problems as I'm sure you know another 100 as well.

 

People need to get reprimanded and something needs to be done. I don't want people getting fired because we all have to work and eat. BUT somewhere in some office a guy should be sat down and spoken to and told that he needs to really turn things around.

 

FIRST ADVICE go to any game pvp forum (OTHER GAMES/INcluding this one) see why people are complaining and fix the problem...

 

 

TL:DR

 

Research, poll, test changes before they come out. Learn from other MMO's pvp scene.

 

BELOW IS SOMETHING THAT COULD HELP IN HINDSIGHT

 

 

this is a selection of ideas that both i and others have come up with that could help with the problems that exist in the game. they are by no means a "one tool fixes everything", and certainly they are just a starting point to go on.

 

so let's start with the current problems, some are fixable, others aren't...

1. this is a two faction game - this cannot be fixed, it's way too late to change it, and it will be there forever... if you don't like that, there are other games that are different. find them.
   
2. there are population imbalances - due to being a two faction game, this will always be apparent, whether the difference is large or small depends largely on the playerbase but there are things Bioware can do to remedy it somewhat.
   
3. faction pride - because you can roll both factions on the same server, the majority of players will feel very little pride in their own faction, there is no ownership or accountability. if you don't like how things are going... just alt on the other faction for a while! rather than actually try to push the rest of your faction to rally together.
   
4. the powerful get more powerful - currently due to game mechanics, the dominant faction has an easier time becoming more powerful, this has the knock on effect of making the underdog side feel even less inclined to compete... why compete when you're almost certain to lose, right?
   
5. pvp stats - a controvertial issue to be sure, many people feel it's necessary, many feel the opposite, we can explore it but it's doubtful that there will ever be a solution that everybody likes. sometimes the minority might have to tip it's head to the majority.
   
6. vertical progression - intrinsically tied into MMO's nowadays, especially ones that heavily involve pve content, is vertical progression... this is due to the mindset of most players that they simply "want bigger numbers". this is something that is quite possibly the biggest problem in PVP in any game, and always will be.
   

 

so let's tackle each issue one at a time, make some sense of it, and see what we can do to potentially solve the issue.

 

1. two faction game.

 

As i stated above, this will not change, it's too late to even think about it, sorry... however it is heavily tied into...

 

2. population imbalance.

 

Because this is a two faction game, one side will invariably outnumber the other. there are a few things that the developer can do to remedy the issue, such as imposing hard-caps on server factions, giving bonuses to the underdog faction, give penalties to the overpopulated faction, imposing instance limits per faction. but ultimately it all comes down to the players choice. regardless of anything the developer does, it's the player who makes the choice to roll on either faction.

 

3. cross faction players.

 

the ability to roll both factions on the same server is the most detrimental thing in any pvp game. it promotes "spying", and it also dissolves any form of "faction pride" that could ever have existed. it results in a fractured community of players who neither trust each other, or even in some cases want to even talk to each other. it makes organising the underdog realm very difficult as any potential gathering could be leaked to the dominating faction with disasterous results.

 

4. the great snowball.

 

this actually ties three things in together, each one is bad on it's own but when combined they make for a snowball that just gets bigger and bigger until it becomes unmanageable. it's sad to say that we're almost at that point already! but what are those three things?

• pvp stats
  
• vertical progression
  
• imbalanced populations
  

 

we've already covered population imbalance to a degree, but in this context it's important to note that due to current game mechanics, the overpopulated realm is just reaping huge rewards with little penalty. they're able to capture and hold all the objectives, whilst simultaniously dominate the underdog faction due to pure numbers, on top of all this, when (for example) 40 people "tag" a single enemy combatant, when that person dies all 40 people get the same reward as if only one person had made the kill... this is unacceptable by ALL standards. combine this with vertical progression, and not only do the dominant faction have an easier time getting higher tiered gear, but when they get there they become more powerful, making them not only harder to kill but also making it easier to kill the underdogs. and to top it all off, there's a pvp stat involved... one of the worst things to grace mmo's everywhere has been addopted here, and what it means now, is that because higher tiered gear has higher base stats, AND a higher allotment of pvp stats, the dominating realm is well and truly on its way to being unbeatable. when "new 50's" come into the fold, there really will be no place for them, and no means for them to challenge the overpopulated side.

 

But what can we do about allof this? nothing, it's in Biowares hands... and god i hope they can fix it. I'm sure they have ideas of their own, but then i'm also sure they thought the ideas they've already tried were good ones. disregarding the fact, of course, that those ideas both tried and failed in other games...

 

So, here are a few suggestions that might make BioWares life easier. a couple of things they could do to make things more enjoyable for players and make the game a better place all round.

 

1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following:

• when the serverwide population is imbalanced by 1.5:1 or greater, grant a +100% valor bonus SERVER WIDE to the underdog faction.
  
• when the instance population is imbalanced by 1.25:1 or greater, grant a 25% valor bonus which scales up to 400% when the population imbalance reaches 4:1.
  
• make valor per kill, and the bonus attached to it, become divided by the amount of players involved in the kill. so rather than 40 players gaining (20 valor + 180 valor bonus) for killing a single player, they would instead recieve (1 valor + 5 valor bonus) each. this will round UP to the nearest whole number.
  

 

this will grant a NON stat oriented incentive for the underdogs to get out there and fight. it will mean that in the absolute worst case scenario of being outnumbered by 4:1 or greater, the underdog will recieve the same valor per kill than the dominating faction will, even if the dominating faction controls all the objectives. it will also promote the idea that you are better off roaming in small groups looking for good even fights, than you are blobbing up in an almighty zerg, since you will gian less valor per kill as a zerg.

 

2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately, and do the following for a patch in the near future:

• tag Tionese, Columi, and Rakata gear, so that as soon as they enter a warzone, or initiate pvp, they recieve a 5% debuff to all stats. this would work similarly to how a player gets tagged with a trauma debuff when fighting, and the debuff vanishes when combat ends.
  

 

i realise many people see pvp stats as a way for pvp players to compete with pve players who have better stats on their gear due to the progression of pve gear. i get that, it's a reasonable argument. but it's been dealt with in completely the wrong way. what it's ended up doing is alienating any and all players who don't have the gear now, or in future, who are going to be faced up against high level players, probably on a dominant side, and it just all mounts up to having too much work to do, for too little gain.

 

there is still "progression" for all of those who wish to have it. the pvp gear still has tiers of stats, so you still get more numbers. but you will still struggle to complete high end pve content due to having lower stats than the pve sets. while at the same time, the pve gear will be great for pve, but will be on-par with the pvp sets, so there is no unfair advantage in that regard.

 

due to the way the bolster system works in warzones, this would also allow them to remove the 50 bracket, decreasing queue times to a globally accepted level, with minimal problems (after all, without expertise, there's little difference between fighting a 49 or a 50 with the bolster system as it averages out stats, moving high stats down where needed).

 

thanks for reading, i hope someone somewhere takes some notice.

cheers.

 

ANOTHER FROM ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE FORUMS... (Mind you I can keep finding stuff..)

 

 

'Let's see if purples drop' is getting old fast.

 

Every guild has a guy who's opened thirty bags and not gotten a single piece of gear out of them. My guildie has been doing PvP dailies and weeklies for a solid month and still doesn't have a mainhand lightsaber that's worth a damn.

 

There's another guy, same class, who is purpled out. These two guys have been running together this entire time; one is geared, the other is shafted.

 

There're a bunch of ways to fix this, but I think that the -best- way (that still remains reasonably easy to do) is to have a quest chain.

 

In progress, they may look like this!

 

Mercenary Warzone Mastery I:

 

DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 22/36

Healing Medals in Warzones: 5/8

Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 47/64

 

Sniper Warzone Mastery IV:

 

DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 27/44

Solo Kill Medals in Warzones: 20/20

Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 68/75

 

Reward: One piece of PvP tier gear, your choice. Each reptition of the quest, the numbers get a little larger; 38 intead of 36. NO BIG JUMPS. Progression, not sudden, irritating grindwalls.

 

Give people a real objective instead of 'get bag, hope for loot'.

 

And adding passes, plants and slices to this equation means even people who only want to kill will have a -good reason- to complete victory conditions instead of going straight for killing enemies. Don't say 'win games to get bags', say 'do these objectives to get gear'; winning games will progress naturally from people having a good reason to do objectives instead of just fight the enemy.

 

Random bags are not interesting, they're not fun, and they do not drive the player to do anything except -show up- for games. Yes, winning has incentive. No, winning does not have clear goals set before players who do not have the interest to play the gametypes.

Edited January 20, 2012 by jaytrust

[Darth_Philar]

That's because there is no PvP in most MMOs. Instead we get CvC (which is impossible to balance) and it gets called PvP.

 

In order to implement true PvP it would need to be done like in Guild Wars where it is essentially a completely different game. No stats from gear, no perks from being a longer player than someone else.

 

Most "PvPers" don't want that because they don't actually like PvP, they like CvE and they just want some of the mobs replaced with other people's characters.

[spamhuis]

Why does everyone expect a first month product to be finished? The whole point of MMO's is that they keep growing as time goes on and getting more polished.

 

To compare this game to some that have been released for 6 years is absurd.

 

Hell, WoW shipped without any PvP systems whatsoever, but you're a complainer who's probably never played a launch mmo before.

[drakhla]

Oh yah it definitely failed.. I go onto the imperial fleet and I'm the only one her- hey what are these 200 other people doing playing a failed game?

 

Guess they didn't get the memo.

 

Seriously enough with the game is broken/fail etc threads. People will always play the game for the bioware storyline and the star wars universe. End of story.

 

If you want to be hardcore uber 1337 PvP then find another game. I think its a fine diversion.

[rlpirate]

Why does everyone expect a first month product to be finished? The whole point of MMO's is that they keep growing as time goes on and getting more polished.

 

To compare this game to some that have been released for 6 years is absurd.

 

Hell, WoW shipped without any PvP systems whatsoever, but you're a complainer who's probably never played a launch mmo before.

 

cause this is a 2011-2012 release. standards are and should be higher.

[Starchyld]

Dont talk to it, its a desiesed creature

[iceperson]

Anyway I might be a little extreme here, but it looks like the death of most MMO's revolve around PVP... Hopefully its not too late!

 

lol the world doesn't revolve around you and few dozen of your friends who need to create 50 new threads a day. most of us are enjoying the game...

[SliggXx]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[thanealpha]

Why does everyone expect a first month product to be finished?

 

Because we're PAYING for the product. I absolutely agree with you for a free product, no expectation of something that works. But for a BOUGHT AND PAID FOR product the expectation that it actually work is pretty reasonable.

 

 

The whole point of MMO's is that they keep growing as time goes on and getting more polished.

 

 

Let me rephrase. The whole point of MMO's is that their CONTENT keep growing as time goes on.

 

The functionality at release needs to work.

 

>Combat functionality, i.e. basic skills firing when a button is pushed: Not working In fact there are at least 3 different ways this is not working. 1> Skills not firing, or experiencing delay, when pushed. 2> Skills repeating a partial animation over and over before firing, 3> Skills that appear to fire graphically but apply no effect and don't charge the cooldown.

 

>Reward functionality, i.e. quest credit when the conditions are met: Not working

 

>Inventory functionality, i.e. basic sort functions across vendors and AH: Not working

 

>PvP cost/benefit reward structure: Not working at release, not working after one "fix"

 

>Hardware optimization, i.e. not unduely straining the GPU/CPU and/or low framerate performance of machines with WELL OVER the suggested specifications: Not working

 

>Basic communication functionality, i.e. guild chat: Not working as of just a few days ago...we'll see if it's really fixed with 1.1 now.

 

>Basic travel functionality, i.e. zoning between areas: Not working it is COMMON to lock up and have to hard reset when zoning.

 

>Instance queue functionality, i.e. quing for warfronts: Not working it is common to have multiple queue groups on one side or the other causing the warzone to end prematurely due to imbalance.

 

>Downloader functionality, i.e. not repeatedly requiring people to download a 11+GB file over and over because a patch download was unsuccessful. : Not working

Need I go on?

 

These are NOT small bug fix issues. These are the heart and core of the game. I think it's reasonable that they be expected to work at launch.

 

OR at the VERY VERY VERY MINIMUM the expectation should be that BW be VERY upfront and transparent in their communications about these issues, instead of remaining vague and in some cases completely unresponsive to them.

[SeareHawkeye]

Making a mistake does not = failure. If that were true, then everyone is a big fat failure. MMOs are never perfect. If you have a problem, by all means express it in a mature and constructive way. Threatening to quit and throwing buzz words around like FAIL will get you and this game no where. If you truly want this game to succeed, then grow up and be constructive. If you don't care about this game, then show some respect for the rest of us and just leave quietly and move on.

[Kuari]

Because we're PAYING for the product. I absolutely agree with you for a free product, no expectation of something that works. But for a BOUGHT AND PAID FOR product the expectation that it actually work is pretty reasonable.

 

 

 

 

Let me rephrase. The whole point of MMO's is that their CONTENT keep growing as time goes on.

 

The functionality at release needs to work.

 

>Combat functionality, i.e. basic skills firing when a button is pushed: Not working In fact there are at least 3 different ways this is not working. 1> Skills not firing, or experiencing delay, when pushed. 2> Skills repeating a partial animation over and over before firing, 3> Skills that appear to fire graphically but apply no effect and don't charge the cooldown.

 

>Reward functionality, i.e. quest credit when the conditions are met: Not working

 

>Inventory functionality, i.e. basic sort functions across vendors and AH: Not working

 

>PvP cost/benefit reward structure: Not working at release, not working after one "fix"

 

>Hardware optimization, i.e. not unduely straining the GPU/CPU and/or low framerate performance of machines with WELL OVER the suggested specifications: Not working

 

>Basic communication functionality, i.e. guild chat: Not working as of just a few days ago...we'll see if it's really fixed with 1.1 now.

 

>Basic travel functionality, i.e. zoning between areas: Not working it is COMMON to lock up and have to hard reset when zoning.

 

>Instance queue functionality, i.e. quing for warfronts: Not working it is common to have multiple queue groups on one side or the other causing the warzone to end prematurely due to imbalance.

 

>Downloader functionality, i.e. not repeatedly requiring people to download a 11+GB file over and over because a patch download was unsuccessful. : Not working

Need I go on?

 

These are NOT small bug fix issues. These are the heart and core of the game. I think it's reasonable that they be expected to work at launch.

 

OR at the VERY VERY VERY MINIMUM the expectation should be that BW be VERY upfront and transparent in their communications about these issues, instead of remaining vague and in some cases completely unresponsive to them.

 

...ok, I'm calling bull on half that. There might be some bugs here and there on some of it, but you're either the unluckiest person in the world and need to call support or blowing things so ridiculously and impossibly out of proportion that its pathetic. That's not to say there aren't issues, but I've noticed far less problems here then I have playing WoW or Warhammer

[jaytrust]

I rather use the word FAILED to bring the fact to light that if thing CONTINUE in this direction thats whats going to happen.

 

 

A mistake is acceptable, if its a mistake.

 

BUT this is WAS NOT a mistake.

 

Its like DUH, the servers aren't balance population wise, the side with more players is going to beat up the side with less players.

 

 

Even a little kid who has never played MMOs could tell you that.

 

Excuse the word but it was plain stupid, what they did. Before and after I could have told you that not speaking in hind sight.

[Crujido]

You have to sift through thread after thread of people crying that the _____ is OP and that _____ need a nerf.

 

 

Lets take the PvP forums for example:

 

Apparently 90% of the posters aren't even level 50, which is laughable.

Most thought Operative was OP (LOL).

People actually think pre-mades shouldn't be allowed in PVP (ROFL).

And Sorc's have different abilities than sages (Not just animations).

 

With that said, its incredibly difficult to actually take anyone on here seriously.

[galataea]

Because we're PAYING for the product. I absolutely agree with you for a free product, no expectation of something that works. But for a BOUGHT AND PAID FOR product the expectation that it actually work is pretty reasonable.

 

 

 

 

Let me rephrase. The whole point of MMO's is that their CONTENT keep growing as time goes on.

 

The functionality at release needs to work.

 

>Combat functionality, i.e. basic skills firing when a button is pushed: Not working In fact there are at least 3 different ways this is not working. 1> Skills not firing, or experiencing delay, when pushed. 2> Skills repeating a partial animation over and over before firing, 3> Skills that appear to fire graphically but apply no effect and don't charge the cooldown.

 

>Reward functionality, i.e. quest credit when the conditions are met: Not working

 

>Inventory functionality, i.e. basic sort functions across vendors and AH: Not working

 

>PvP cost/benefit reward structure: Not working at release, not working after one "fix"

 

>Hardware optimization, i.e. not unduely straining the GPU/CPU and/or low framerate performance of machines with WELL OVER the suggested specifications: Not working

 

>Basic communication functionality, i.e. guild chat: Not working as of just a few days ago...we'll see if it's really fixed with 1.1 now.

 

>Basic travel functionality, i.e. zoning between areas: Not working it is COMMON to lock up and have to hard reset when zoning.

 

>Instance queue functionality, i.e. quing for warfronts: Not working it is common to have multiple queue groups on one side or the other causing the warzone to end prematurely due to imbalance.

 

>Downloader functionality, i.e. not repeatedly requiring people to download a 11+GB file over and over because a patch download was unsuccessful. : Not working

Need I go on?

 

These are NOT small bug fix issues. These are the heart and core of the game. I think it's reasonable that they be expected to work at launch.

 

OR at the VERY VERY VERY MINIMUM the expectation should be that BW be VERY upfront and transparent in their communications about these issues, instead of remaining vague and in some cases completely unresponsive to them.

 

/Signed for truth

 

100% agree, all these issues have been here since day one and still no fix. I mean basic search functions on an auction house? really bioware?? lol. Well i suppose waving while on a mount is a bit more of a pressing issue.. haha.

[Kedlan]

You have to sift through thread after thread of people crying that the _____ is OP and that _____ need a nerf.

 

 

Lets take the PvP forums for example:

 

Apparently 90% of the posters aren't even level 50, which is laughable.

Most thought Operative was OP (LOL).

People actually think pre-mades shouldn't be allowed in PVP (ROFL).

And Sorc's have different abilities than sages (Not just animations).

 

With that said, its incredibly difficult to actually take anyone on here seriously.

 

That and the fact that they are republic side players, If most of these guys organized themselves they would win, the empire has numbers yes, but geez guy stop hanging back and doing nothing and go in and fight.

[SeareHawkeye]

I rather use the word FAILED to bring the fact to light that if thing CONTINUE in this direction thats whats going to happen.

 

 

A mistake is acceptable, if its a mistake.

 

BUT this is WAS NOT a mistake.

 

Its like DUH, the servers aren't balance population wise, the side with more players is going to beat up the side with less players.

 

 

Even a little kid who has never played MMOs could tell you that.

 

Excuse the word but it was plain stupid, what they did. Before and after I could have told you that not speaking in hind sight.

 

The mistake here was making the base turrets too weak to repel the Imps which allowed them to camp the taxis and med center in mass. It's not Bioware's fault that a vast majority of players are rolling Imp. If you have a problem with the faction imbalance, then by all means please post some constructive solutions.

 

PVP is only 1 aspect of this game. I'm sure there are a lot of PVE'ers who are not affected by this and could care less. To say that this mistake will lead to the failure of the game is alarmist and extreme in my opinion. Chicken Little comes to mind. I would like to see the faction imbalance addressed as I am Republic. I honestly don't have any great ideas right now and I'm willing to give Bioware time to sort it out because I enjoy the other aspects of this game as well (yes I'm on a PVP server).

 

Too be honest, even though we were extremely outnumbered and the lag was unbearable, the patch accomplished one thing. A lot of PVP took place last night on Illium. More than I've ever seen. If not for the lag, it would have actually been fun even if we were losing big time. We did manage to push the Imps out of our base a few times and I managed to escape back to the fleet.

[MakaSorb]

nm, decided not to feed the troll Edited January 19, 2012 by MakaSorb

[SeareHawkeye]

You have to sift through thread after thread of people crying that the _____ is OP and that _____ need a nerf.

 

 

Lets take the PvP forums for example:

 

Apparently 90% of the posters aren't even level 50, which is laughable.

Most thought Operative was OP (LOL).

People actually think pre-mades shouldn't be allowed in PVP (ROFL).

And Sorc's have different abilities than sages (Not just animations).

 

With that said, its incredibly difficult to actually take anyone on here seriously.

 

Most of the time, the forums are nothing but a refuge for the bitter, negative, complainers. It gives the false impression, and reinforces the belief, that they are the majority when in fact they are not.

[Kringlorr]

 

Why not look at the epic fails of other MMO's and learn from them? Seems like a common sense thing to do.

Stopped reading there.

[Fozy]

Why does everyone expect a first month product to be finished? The whole point of MMO's is that they keep growing as time goes on and getting more polished.

 

To compare this game to some that have been released for 6 years is absurd.

 

Hell, WoW shipped without any PvP systems whatsoever, but you're a complainer who's probably never played a launch mmo before.

 

You are odviously an imperial player. they gave all benefits to the imps and screwed each and every republic player. We all expected a lil more then that from the 1st month. Why don't they just change the name to " The Old Empire" and give the devs who play IMP what they've been waiting for. BW, you sicken me, for creating this huge pile of imp dominated poo

Edited January 19, 2012 by Fozy

[Jestunhi]

FIRST ADVICE go to any game pvp forum (OTHER GAMES/INcluding this one) see why people are complaining and fix the problem...

 

Worst advice ever.

 

Use the forum to find potential issues, yes. But balance based on data not the vocal minority who whine on the forum.

[Sevenpatch]

cause this is a 2011-2012 release. standards are and should be higher.

 

Nope. Software doesn't work like that. Sorry.

[Cowflab]

You are odviously an imperial player. they gave all benefits to the imps and screwed each and every republic player. We all expected a lil more then that from the 1st month. Why don't they just change the name to " The Old Empire" and give the devs who play IMP what they've been waiting for. BW, you sicken me, for creating this huge pile of imp dominated poo

 

Waaaaaaaaaaah... The devs do not favor one faction over another. That is your perception. Maybe you should spend more time honing your tactics and strategy than making pointless whine threads like this.

[borkbork]

Nope. Software doesn't work like that. Sorry.

+1 forum is just booo boo , nerf this and nerf that

[iLLaDeLpHLife]

Anyway I might be a little extreme here, but it looks like the death of most MMO's revolve around PVP... Hopefully its not too late!

 

Seriously though, guys I understand you love this game(hint hint- I do too)

 

But unless we voice whats wrong with it, they won't improve it.

 

For one PVP is super broken.

 

I would argue that little to no planning was done by those in charge of pvp.

 

Why not look at the epic fails of other MMO's and learn from them? Seems like a common sense thing to do.

 

I'm not part of the development team but I can name about 10 guys in my guild who can fix most of the problems as I'm sure you know another 100 as well.

 

People need to get reprimanded and something needs to be done. I don't want people getting fired because we all have to work and eat. BUT somewhere in some office a guy should be sat down and spoken to and told that he needs to really turn things around.

 

FIRST ADVICE go to any game pvp forum (OTHER GAMES/INcluding this one) see why people are complaining and fix the problem...

 

 

TL:DR

 

Research, poll, test changes before they come out. Learn from other MMO's pvp scene.

U need a life .

 

Seriously I bet your mother is very proud of that post. Hanging up on the fridge and everything.

 

Nice work kid