BioWare: Here is what caused the faction imabalance and here is how you fix it.

[Dzhokhar]

I'm a little tired of people who say "everyone always prefers the Evil side". Did any of you play vanilla WoW? Before the Horde got Blood Elves and Paladins, the Alliance outnumbered Horde by 2:1 easily.

 

That said, I do think the marketing of TOR steered players to the Sith side. Unfortunately, that damage is done. The way I see it, Bioware has to take one of the following 3 actions:

1) Give the Republic some sort of buff to encourage people to switch (this is a very dangerous option that would have to be implemented extremely carefully)

2) Implement split Empire/Republic server queues, where players on the more populous side have to wait to log in (if the server is highly populated and/or the imbalance is severe).

3) Limit the number of same-faction Huttball matches that can be played so as to lengthen Empire PvP queues

 

One "option" that isn't really an option is allowing people to transfer their existing characters across factions. This isn't really feasible due to the centrality of story in the game and the fact that the Empire classes have completely different stories from their Republic mirrors. (Making people wait until they finish their Class quests won't work because of the potential for expansions to include class content and the fact that the imbalances exist at low levels too.) Additionally, allowing people to switch without providing any incentive to do so probably won't result in a lot of transfers.

[HHHHellraizer]

I dont think the lore is what attracted people. I just think people tend to gravitate towards being evil in games. Not to mention Imperial from level ONE look amazing and almost all their armor looks fricken incredible and unique. My jedi and all other republic look like the same ole crap since we got in the game. Robes, robes and more robes with the same ole color schemes. The layout of the worlds is bland, but the Imperial side is always visually striking in its epic feel, its grandeur etc

 

Overall Imperial just seethes bad assery while republic are the nice guys who look homeless.

 

I would say the better players all flooded to Imperial too, the same thing happens in ever game. The seasoned players want to look ****** and wreck faces while the new players want to be good and want to look "pretty"

[MumbaUmba]

I for one despite liking Empire story a lot more play right now only Republic characters.

 

But it's hard to argue Empire looks cooler almost for every class:

Trooper -> Bounty Hunter, yes sir vs I want money for the kill

Sage -> Sorcerer, well force lightning nuff said.

Assasin -> Iconic Darth Maul

Jedi Knight -> Sith Warrior well i do believe SW has one of the best stories and you do feel completely ******. Once again Darth Vader.

the only class which is not cooler is Agent, but IT IS better then Smuggler.

 

So it's actually hard to NOT choose Empire and then it becomes network effect.

[Sathid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#1950s

 

Granted you are 51 and did not grow up with complete access to information that we have now but don't go making such general statements when one simple google search proves you are wrong. Scroll on down to 1970. You know how many school shootings there were when you were young? You got it, not zero. Only wiki too, more searches will reveal much more.

 

Dont base one little search as proof when those of us that are older know what the fact's are,just look at rap/hip hop whatever you wish to call it,schools did not have metal detectors even when i was in school in the 80's,no there is a very prevelant punk thug mentality in this current gen and it is very apparent,not to mention bullying has become a very seriuos problem,back in my day bullys were shunned and treated as outcasts or beaten to a pulp,not this gen they celebrate it.

 

Know what i mean homey?

[Geawiel]

My picking of the sith is a completely different story. The fact for me is that the Republic character stories are boring. Everyone in my guild has the same issue. Our original plan before we got ahold of the mass weekend beta was to start some republic on a different server from our sith. After playing the weekend beta on the republic side we all got turned off to them. Again, the story was boring to all of us.

 

The OP idea was pretty well my thoughts on how to balance out at least open world pvp. However, if everyone else thinks the story line is boring then that won't fix it either. It will help those that rolled Republic to actually win but, it won't boost the population much.

[ProfessorWalsh]

OK, if we're going to get all pschychological and wax philisophical heres the deal. Older people play Republic on average. Older people have a better moral compass and refuse to play the evil side. You know how many school shootings there were when I was young? You got it, zero. You know how many metal detectors they had to put at entrances to schools? Zero, again. I could go on and on but you get the picture. Evil has been glorified in our culture as not really evil, just misunderstood. You can date a demon, werewolf, vampire, etc. and they are actually pretty swell chaps. Hell, you can be a singin dancin witch and still be prom queen. I am 51 and was not raised with the paradigm that evil was in any way, shape, or form cool.

 

Bottom line as to the faction imbalance? Our society has decayed to the point where evil is "cool". And that, ironically enough, is most uncool.

 

I could make the Jedi look cool and not look evil. I seriously could have. BioWare didn't.

 

See, evil isn't all that cool when evil is getting smacked around. One of the few things BioWare didn't do was show Sith being terrified and fleeing from the Republic.

 

This is something canonically that happened.

 

Sith are usually cowards. That is because the Sith, unlike the Jedi, are actually afraid to die.

 

Palpatine in Episode III for example tried to flee from Yoda.

 

Palpatine threw a temper tantrum when it looked like Mace was going to kill him. Shouting like a child, "No no no no no!"

 

Anakin acted like a total pratt.

 

BioWare never showed Sith do that in this game's launch hype.

 

Evil is only seen as cool to modern audiences when it is the "Cool" type of evil that is fearless and steamrolling.

 

You start showing evil as the loser in a fight or having them display straight up fear and then the cool factor goes down immensely.

 

Yes. I could have probably stopped the faction imbalance with one Blur trailer.

[Darth_Cliche]

I've never seen a "why faction imbalance occurred" claim be verified. Ever.

[captainscarbeard]

Offer a faction switch. If that doesn't work add stuff like pure black sabers and x-wings to republic only.

 

Oh, and mon cals.

 

That'll do.

[ProfessorWalsh]

THis post wreaks of smugness and is completely wrong. Debs couldn't predict this sort of thing. Its how our society is these days. It was the same with dcuo. Villains there had it easy with queue times because all the noobs feel they wanted to be heroes instead of villains. If you want to blame someone blame Lucas for making the sith more appealing by making movies that made darth vader the hero with an interesting character arc.

 

Dude. I predicted it. I predicted it over a year before launch.

 

The movies showed the Emperor as a coward, Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) as a complete git, and every time a Sith faced anyone of equal power they ran away instead of trying to fight.

 

(Count Dooku v Yoda, Emperor Palpatine tried to flee from Yoda as well, Emperor Palpatine screaming in fear when Windu had him on the ropes, the Emperor screaming as Vader threw him down an elevator shaft.)

[ProfessorWalsh]

I've never seen a "why faction imbalance occurred" claim be verified. Ever.

 

When one guy says, "This will happen because of this."

 

And then another guy says, "No way, all our data points to that not happening."

 

Then the guy who said "This will happen" should generally get the benefit of the doubt.

[Aepervius]

There is one little problem with your theory op. At least two actually.

1) you have no evidence that it was the marketing hype. And an informal questionning of my acquaintance playing showed that they would rather play sith because throwing lightning looks less "sissy" then throwing rocks I meant pebble throwing dirt. And I tend to agree. Having played both Sith Inq and Sith Sage, the sith sage looks... Bad.

2) the stories. I really found some of the story on the light side cringe worthy. That is a bit weak but might have an impact.

3) some of coming from Kotor had revan as a Sith. Not as a gray jedi, nor as light side. Yeah probably a minority but still.

4) PVPer so far as I see always overwhelmly choose the "bad" side.

 

 

That said your suggestion were already made more than once, to buff the other side, and to make reward shared among group, so lower number= greater reward.

 

IMHO whereas it might help balance things out it won't change any of the points above.

 

ETA: and the main ground of any imbalance is 2 side system. In a 3 side system , 2 side pound on the stronger, so with time the player tend to shift around tzo make 3 sides equal. It does not happen often with two sides.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Aepervius

[Volacious]

The best solution is probably some blend of stat buff, xp buff and player cap.

 

IE, if the imbalance is small, an XP buff is all that is necessary. If the imbalance is medium stat buffs should come into effect in world PVP. Finally, if the imbalance gets severe, faction pop caps should come into effect for world pvp areas.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I have to get 2 things off my chest -

 

OP is not a professor of psychology.

 

No. You are right, I am not.

 

What am I a professor of you ask?

 

...

 

I teach computer game design. For a living. By this I mean the term "Professor" in my name isn't just a handle. For over 6 years now. I have degrees in English and Game Design. I also have the relevant experience in the industry as a designer.

 

...

 

So yeah. I do sort of know my stuff.

Edited January 20, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[WaveZtream]

Yeah that is spot on what are you waiting for BioWare?

[Aehwe]

I'm thinking something like this:

 

The ratio of Empire:Republic is sampled every 10 sec. The average ratio is then calculated for the trailing 24 hours. Based on this T24H ratio, if it it varies by more than say 2:1 or 1.5:1 or whatever, the high pop faction gets increased XP (only helps non-level 50 characters, encouraging people to play alts) and decreased valor rewards on Ilum. Maybe even increased WZ valor rewards.

 

Meanwhile, the low pop faction gets increased valor rewards on Ilum, and decreased valor rewards in WZ, to drive action.

 

Let me get this straight. You want the overpopulated faction, to get 50% more xp so that level 50's on that faction will be leveling alts and the underpopulated faction gets more Ilum time?

 

You havent really thought this through have you?

 

Heres whats gonna happen in your scenario: 90% of underpopulated faction that do PvP will reroll because they get 50% more xp on the other side...

 

Bloody brilliant man! That'll solve it!

[ProfessorWalsh]

I really don't think the "hype" that you are referring to is the cause of faction disparity. It is a gross oversimplification of the psychology of players to think that a couple game trailers poisoned the minds of players against the Republic. I think the culture to which the game was hyped has more to do it. The culture in the US and the West is general has been shifting in recent years to more of a "dark side" mentality. If you pay attention to TV and movies in the last decade or so you'll notice our fantasy heroes are becoming more dark and brooding types and gruff but missunderstood anti-heroes that eventually open up to a soft and squishy inside.

 

Wasn't just a couple of trailers.

 

Things that lead to this:

 

The histories of Gnost Dural.

 

The reviews of the classes. (Writing the Jedi Knight, no joke, spent 50% of it being about how much it sucks to be a Light Sided Jedi and why it makes more sense to go Dark Side.)

 

The Blur trailers.

 

The numerous interviews and such.

 

...

 

Seriously, every single time a Dev said in an interview, "The factions are political and not moral" and "The Sith aren't really evil" and "They want what is best..."

 

They fed into a specific mindset that they should have spent time actively countering. Every time they tried to explain the Sith as something other than mustache twirling villains (which, by the way, is what was intended in the IP) they caused more and more damage.

 

Good should have been shown to be fearless and most importantly effective.

 

You want to make the "emotionless and calm monk" look awesome?

 

One clip I can think of really handles it perfectly unfortunately I can't show this clip because I am fairly certain it contains foul language. Look up the ending fight scene to Barry Gordy's The Last Dragon.

 

If there was a Blur trailer, where Satele was being beaten down, and she suddenly "became one with the Force" as per canonically happened with everyone from Luke Skywalker to Ganner...

 

Then she completely and totally wiped the floor with him as in made him FLEE IN COMPLETE TERROR one on one and order a full retreat out of visible and complete fear.

 

That would have CLEARLY changed things, dramatically. Suddenly we would have the image of Malgus fringing and filled with fear. Once that happens all bad (rear)-itude goes completely out of the window. So too we would see faction numbers deflate over that one issue.

 

If you don't think it would then you aren't grasping how image marketing works.

[quezcotl]

I agree, jedis seems laughable in the story.

Their leader is not a threat in the story, and we look like space samurais in the game...

[Aehwe]

No. You are right, I am not.

 

What am I a professor of you ask?

 

...

 

I teach computer game design. For a living. By this I mean the term "Professor" in my name isn't just a handle. For over 6 years now. I have degrees in English and Game Design. I also have the relevant experience in the industry as a designer.

 

...

 

So yeah. I do sort of know my stuff.

 

I'm sure BW devs knows their stuff aswell. Or do they? Or do you?

 

You may have plenty of ideas, but are they good? IMHO I disliked every idea you came up with for fixing this problem. I'm not saying I have the solution, but I'm saying that perhaps yours isnt the solution.

[Katae]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, as I am not going to sift through that many pages to see, but my idea for a fix would be:

 

Remove the BH from Sith

Remove the Smuggler from Republic

Keep their story lines in tact and give them a new faction. There are an assortment of ideas that could become of this but this is the initial thought to balance some of the faction issues.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Katae

[Sumire]

Yeah, so, again, just copy off the masters of mmos, Blizzard, and introduce tenacity, even though it doesn't really work.

 

The reason why more people rolled Sith is their races look cooler, sound better..Bounty Hunter anyone? , they get better companions, better looking gear, a cooler looking leader etc etc

Edited January 20, 2012 by Sumire

[Kuari]

When one guy says, "This will happen because of this."

 

And then another guy says, "No way, all our data points to that not happening."

 

Then the guy who said "This will happen" should generally get the benefit of the doubt.

 

So assumption > research? How do your teachers take that?

[magnuskn]

There are so many better reasons for the faction distribution than anything Henry managed to barf up in the OP. Reasons, I might add, that are far less self aggrandizing that the self congratulatory nonsense offered and require far fewer intuitive leaps.

 

Why shouldn't Walsh say that he warned BioWare? He did. And he was right. He created one of the largest and longest running threads the forum had before the wipe. Only because you don't like him, that doesn't make it any less true.

[ProfessorWalsh]

The short is. I dont think you know what your talking about. If you were someone who any type of creditable resources or any knowledge of how a game project works you would understand that the odds of this happening are about as much as SWG reopening.

 

Your suggestion would eat up way to much development resources for something that isn't a definitive fix. Your blind speculation at the beginning leads me to believe you have just enough knowledge about Psychology to hurt yourself.

 

I do applaud your efforts though for trying to come up with a fix for the imbalance issues, but don't be so arrogant next time. So the part you said how you would fix this exactly was incorrect.

 

Cheers!

 

The arrogance has a reason here. I warned BioWare about this over a year in advance and no I actually do have a background which had me study market trends and consumer psychology. Yes, my fix would work. It would actually lead to a re-balancing over a long period as it would actually encourage people to change faction while allowing the people currently in the underpopulated faction a chance to score victories over the vastly superior numbers of opponents.

 

Now, if you look at the post, I even said "or something like this" indicating that there were clearly over avenues. However this is a time sensitive situation and as such whatever fix has to be severe enough to have an immediate and noticeable impact as well as instantly alleviate the suffering of those who are afflicted by the negative side effects of faction overpopulation in an open world PVP environment.

 

If you want to know the answer to the question you asked:

Are you a game designer who currently works on game balance for a Triple A game? If your not, why not?

 

No. I do not. I actually was a designer but in 2006 I was diagnosed with (what was said to be at the time) terminal cancer. I became very sick and for over a year I was unable to work as I underwent treatments. I defeated the cancer and became a college professor who teaches game design.

[Pe-Te]

This is so easy to fix its laughable.

 

1. Make ilum PVP area a instance.

2. Every player/group/raid entering will increase the number of current LOWER population side. Give them a "jedi mindtrick", "ilum corrupts your mind"-debuff or whatever. Republic players can be imperials and imperials can be republic. Or red and blue team. You allready did that in HUTTBALL, so its COPY+PASTE in terms of code.

3. Put atleast 150 players in that area on both sides, because its so huge OR cut the area by half. You only need empire/republic base and mid. As its instanced it should work if not great but good enough.

 

BINGO

 

You have allmost near perfectly balanced Ilum pvp area FOREVER, nothing has to be changed in the area itself, you can keep the quests, bonuses etc JUST AS IT IS. To prevent killswapping, put a no valor if you kill same person in 2 minutes, 50% if you kill them 2-5mins and back to 100% at 5mins or something like that.

 

As its instanced same faction ppl cant talk to other side players....

 

Either this or give FREE faction changes in most imbalanced servers.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Pe-Te

[ironmb]

It's sad when our server can't even get a full 50 lvl group to fight in warzones. That's how bad the imbalance is.