How to fix PVP: Remove Expertise

[Tomago]

raiding gear, pvp gear, as long as they have the same item rank, players will be just as geared. So no, raiders will not steam roll us. However, if theyre good enough to get high lvl epics in raiding, they should be good enough to beat players in PVP. Against, it becomes a matter of skill.

 

In the same way, PVP players will be able to do ops with their gear, makes the game more well rounded, and most importantly, balanced.

 

I can't wait to see that can of worms.

 

"I've been doing operations for weeks to get a piece of gear, and then someone in my guild pulled out something even better from his first champion bag!"

[flem]

I can't wait to see that can of worms.

 

"I've been doing operations for weeks to get a piece of gear, and then someone in my guild pulled out something even better from his first champion bag!"

This actually seems to be the state of things with hardmode flashpoints *now*.

[Crujido]

Then whats the difference from PvE and PvP gear?

[Akfourtys]

Come on, people. There are folks like myself, that arent so interested in PvE.. I like pvp, i want my gear pvp improved, so i need that Expertise stat on it. No pve gear for pvp at all please.

i was so surprised seeing my mercs pve gear set has 15% critchance bonus of all-the-way tracer missile. and my pvp gear set is just a 5 sec lowered cd on jet boost knock cc why oh why?

p.s. pvp must be pvp, no pve included please.

p.p.s. talking in AoC language: "no fckng bori please"

[flem]

Then whats the difference from PvE and PvP gear?

Ratings (base damage/armor) are the same as tier PvE gear. Stats are, I believe, allocated somewhat more to endurance, as discussed above, and the mod/enhancement second-order stats are slightly less optimized for max raid boss damage output. But those bits are *swappable*.

 

Oh yeah, and you get a major advantage in PvP encounters on damage dealt, taken, and healed. Crazy. And yes, this IS what people are using as at least the start of their raid set.

Edited January 19, 2012 by flem

[MasterPetricco]

They don't need to scrap expertise, they just need to change it.

 

Right now I have all my champion gear with the exception of one implant, my gloves and my weapon and I've gotten centurion gloves and implant as place holders just for the expertise. This gives me a 10.08% advantage in damage done, damage reducted and healing done in PVP. I can imagine battle master gear makes you about 15% better.

 

You don't need to have a stat that makes damage stronger in PVP, the whole idea of a PVP stat is to counter the high burst people get/need for raiding. Because hard/nightmare modes are all about enrage timers meaning more dps = going to win, the fights themselves don't change much you just have less time with which to do them.

 

Because of this raiders will cap out their damage, even tanks will go for some damage stats, which would mean raiders would come to PVP and 3 shot people who only PVP. This is wrong. PvPers need to be able to stand up to PVE burst damage, to do this we only need the defence stat from expertise, we do not need and have never needed the extra damage. The extra healing is nice but a bit over the top at the moment, defence can stay at 10%ish since mitigation in PVP is pretty much broken, but healing only needs about 5 to 7% buff from expertise. All the +to damage against players does is allow geared PVPers to kill any and all none PVP geared players with little to no effort.

Edited January 19, 2012 by MasterPetricco

[JackKerras]

Expertise is an effort to be certain that people don't play PvP and end up in PvP gear that trivializes PvE content.

 

Expertise is there so you can hit other players like a train but still fold up like wet paper when you yank aggro from a raid boss.

 

It has the same effect in reverse; raiders cannot roll up in PvE epics and absolutely decimate geared PvP players because the PvP players have an edge that is quite specific to their own particular milieu.

 

It's a perfectly workable idea, assuming that the point is to separate PvE and PvP into two wholly different gametypes. I think that's retarded, personally; I'm a fan of holistic game design, but people always ***** about how they should be the only ones who have nice things and it makes devs decide that silly things are a great idea.

 

Now, that being said, it also means that endgame can be two entirely separate grind treadmills instead of one, which is awfully good for subscription fees.

 

You aren't supposed to like Expertise. As a raider, you're supposed to endure it when you hit PvP. As a PvPer, you're supposed to enjoy it until you realize you are basically irrelevant in endgame raid encounters. It's basically just there to squeeze another month or two out of you.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Pvp gear should be stat'd with more endurance and less of the dmg stats, so fights last longer. Also, the items will be less desirable for raiders.

Sadly, that necessary work, as a Tank, I would want the most endurance I could cram. If that's PvP gear, that means going with PvP for a while to get geared.

 

ironic thing is: Bioware has probably been going over all these suggestions multiple times to see if they would work and find out one or another that they wouldn't. We would need a suggestion that would definitely work in theory sadly.

 

Best one so far was the commendation one.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Andrew_Waltfeld

[Broom]

While I agree with removing Expertise, stop and think, what would people do then?

 

I mean, currently they're grinding valor and commendations like good little hamsters in the wheel. And forking over $15/mo while doing it. Take away Expertise, and what incentive is there to farm PvP gear? Because let's face it, fun goes out of PvP rather quickly when it's 24/7 Huttball for majority of the game's population.

 

At this stage, they NEED people grinding away at the wheel, so they have time to patch things up and add some more content to keep people quitting from boredom.

 

Actually, I'm likely to leave this game BECAUSE of this grind, just like I left Aion and other games. Slightly better gear as a reward for higher PVP ranking, sure, but these ridiculous bonusses? It only kills PVP, removes all fun out of it. I find myself in a situation where I PVP for gear in stead of for fun, in a situation where I can't even explore other classes because I don't want to fall behind in the gear race and get roflstomped all the time. That's more than just a little bit ridiculous.

 

And keep in mind it's not just the expertise, it's also the incredible stat increases you get with PVP armor. The hitpoint increase alone is staggering.

[deltons]

 

All the PvE gear in the world isn't going to make you invincible in this game. Never played Wow, but this isn't that game. I could beat lvl 49s in high 40s armor when I was 40, sporting lvl 33 armor (lvl'd past PvE content). Raiders won't be steamrolling anyone in TOR. Expertise has no purpose in this game. The only way it would makes sense is if ALL PvP armor at ALL levels had it. That way the PvP gears could have inferior PvE stats, but still perfrom better in PvP. That was the intent and I believe that's how it was in beta. ALL levels had PvP expertise gear. Then at the end of beta they should reoved it and made it 50 only.

 

But if only lvl 50 has it, it has no purpose other than to create the 50 bracket and carrot on a stick for the hardcore. Most people I PvP with just want to have fun competing against other players. I actually enjoy PvP for what it is. Not grinding. I love the 1-49 bracket and I'm dreading the 50 bracket as it's going to absolutely ruin PvP for me. It's really messed up because now I have to start a new character just to enjoy PvP. I should not enjoy PvP more at level 13 than lvl 50. This game is completely absurd.

 

 

The reason you have no trouble with lvl 33 gear at lvl 40 vs a lvl 49 is because of how the bolster system works. If your stats don't exceed a certain level you get bolstered to those stats. You won't exceed them until you are level 50.

 

Expertise is 100% needed. Apparently none of you played WoW in vanilla. In order to compete against raiders in PvP, you had to PvE, which ended up even more time consuming than PvPing to get gear (And no the High Warlord / Grand Marshal Gear wasn't good enough to compete with raiding gear, I myself was a HWL and once AQ came out you pretty much had to PvE).

 

Without Expertise people would just PvP to get raid gear because it would be faster to get it that way. Raiders would complain that they hate PvP and that they shouldn't have to PvP to get the gear (happened many times in WoW). Expertise limits the stats so that it isn't ideal gear for raiding and also makes it so raiding gear isn't ideal for PvP.

 

With all that said I do think that the damage bonus should be taken off of expertise so you don't get a double-whammy against an expertise geared player. That way it only reduces damage taken and not reduces taken + increases done. Healing buff should stay due to 30% PvP healing debuff.

 

I'm sorry that you are having trouble against full Expertise geared players. I myself am not fully geared and can have the same trouble at times, but you have to remember the type of game you are playing. This game is an MMO. MMO's are purely based of progression, always have been and always will be. If you don't enjoy this, then maybe it is time to move on to another genre.

 

TLDR; expertise is very much needed, just with a few tweaks.

Edited January 19, 2012 by deltons

[RealAeiouy]

People saying to remove expertise don't understand why it is there.

 

You will not convince bw to remove it if your suggestions and complaints don't address the real issues it fixes.

[JackKerras]

People saying to remove expertise don't understand why it is there.

 

You will not convince bw to remove it if your suggestions and complaints don't address the real issues it fixes.

 

People who play MMOs and whine for things to change pretty much universally don't have the vaguest Goddamn idea what is actually good for them.

 

People in general vote against their own self-interests without realizing it pretty much all the time. North of 90% of human beings just don't *********** think hard enough to understand what even one repercussion of the changes they ask for is, much less what all of them are.

 

The Internet!

 

Humanity!

 

Welcome to, etc.

[xxdragonragexx]

short answer, NO.

[RobNightfall]

So instead of getting owned by players who pvp'd to get their gear you want to instead be steamrolled by raiders?

 

Sounds fine to me.

 

It is possible to level all gear playing fields within a warzone. Guild Wars managed it, and while the community there sucked, the PvP did not specifically because gear was unimportant. If it can be done in one game, BW can steal it and add it in to this one lol. What they would do with all of the pissed off expertise grinders I don't know, but PvPing against people who PvP just for fun is always more enjoyable.

[xxdragonragexx]

No expertise is a stupid idea.

Raiders just want to be able to own pvpers through gear.

[aleiro]

Expertise is there because they don't want people doing raids to dominate PvP, and I agree on this, however, they have PvE gear with higher stats so people can actually raid and have to progress through the end-game content as it was a ladder, tier 1 - 2 - 3 pve gear. However! there is a way to have this and yet not lose the end game progression.

 

Simply, bring top rank pvp gear to par with top tier pve gear in terms of stats. Remove expertise, and add a PvE only stat. something that reduces miss chance against NPCs. That way, people that raid a lot can have fun in PvP with their raid gear, and people that pvp a lot will be balanced with them. At the same time, you can't use that pvp gear to jump the end game progression. It's so simple, SO DAMN SIMPLE.

 

Or maybe there is a catch i'm not seeing but to me this would solve all problems. It keeps things balanced and lets people do what they want to do. If they want to be hardcore pvpers, they can and if they want to be hardcore pvers they also can. At the same time if those harcore pvers want to go into pvp and have a chance they can do it. If you are a hardcore pvper you can play the end-game pve ladder and have fun doing it as well.

[Stuckov]

Screw what people would think and make a solid game design decision instead. Stop trying to put a damn stat carrot to chase in PvP.

 

Add in additional rewards but do not allow them to give an advantage. Its the root of the problem. Give them titles, mounts, pets, hairstyles, armor skins, WHATEVER. But stop pumping steroids into the powerlevelers and letting them force others to go through what they themselves never had to endure.

 

Its BS. I hear all the whining about, I "earned" my BM and now everyone is getting one! waaaaa. No, the real gripe is the lopsided PVP this and previous game design decisions created.

 

I agree with the OP. level the damn playing field and most of this will go away.

 

so what will you then complain about when instead of FULL pvp gear people came at u with full Rakata Gear. It is not that much different if u look at it. Have u looked at those sets and the bonuses they give?

[Tomago]

Expertise is there because they don't want people doing raids to dominate PvP, and I agree on this, however, they have PvE gear with higher stats so people can actually raid and have to progress through the end-game content as it was a ladder, tier 1 - 2 - 3 pve gear. However! there is a way to have this and yet not lose the end game progression.

 

Simply, bring top rank pvp gear to par with top tier pve gear in terms of stats. Remove expertise, and add a PvE only stat. something that reduces miss chance against NPCs. That way, people that raid a lot can have fun in PvP with their raid gear, and people that pvp a lot will be balanced with them. At the same time, you can't use that pvp gear to jump the end game progression. It's so simple, SO DAMN SIMPLE.

 

Or maybe there is a catch i'm not seeing but to me this would solve all problems. It keeps things balanced and lets people do what they want to do. If they want to be hardcore pvpers, they can and if they want to be hardcore pvers they also can. At the same time if those harcore pvers want to go into pvp and have a chance they can do it. If you are a hardcore pvper you can play the end-game pve ladder and have fun doing it as well.

 

Let me see if I get the bottom line of this because it isn't really clear at all.

 

PVErs will be able to do top tier PVP and PVE with the gear they earn.

PVPers will be able to PVP as well as PVErs, but will be denied access to raid content with their gear because of some (free) special stat on PVE gear that only works on NPCs.

 

So tell me, why would I waste my time earning PVP gear, even if we assume you magically found a way to keep pvp gear in line with pve gear every patch along the way so pvpers could never fall behind in pvp?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Tomago

[Halefthaut]

Then whats the difference from PvE and PvP gear?

 

The way you acquired it. If both PVE and PVP are the same, you could enjoy your playtime the way you want, not the way you are forced to get the best gear

[GrandMike]

Expertise is there because they don't want people doing raids to dominate PvP, and I agree on this, however, they have PvE gear with higher stats so people can actually raid and have to progress through the end-game content as it was a ladder, tier 1 - 2 - 3 pve gear. However! there is a way to have this and yet not lose the end game progression.

 

Simply, bring top rank pvp gear to par with top tier pve gear in terms of stats. Remove expertise, and add a PvE only stat. something that reduces miss chance against NPCs. That way, people that raid a lot can have fun in PvP with their raid gear, and people that pvp a lot will be balanced with them. At the same time, you can't use that pvp gear to jump the end game progression. It's so simple, SO DAMN SIMPLE.

 

Or maybe there is a catch i'm not seeing but to me this would solve all problems. It keeps things balanced and lets people do what they want to do. If they want to be hardcore pvpers, they can and if they want to be hardcore pvers they also can. At the same time if those harcore pvers want to go into pvp and have a chance they can do it. If you are a hardcore pvper you can play the end-game pve ladder and have fun doing it as well.

 

Why should raider get top pvp progression by pve-ing and pvper doesnt get top pve progression by pvp-ing?

 

Either pvp gear is better in pvp and pve gear is better in pve (expertise) or they are exactly same.

 

So no, its not that simple.

Edited January 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[Destia]

Dumb *** idea.

[flem]

Simply, bring top rank pvp gear to par with top tier pve gear in terms of stats.

A lot of people have that other game on the mind and don't realize that in TOR *it already is*.

 

The real solution here, of course, is to extend the logic of the bolster system and simply debuff/de-bolster tier gear (including Champion and Battlemaster stuff). So you could choose what secondary stats you'd prioritize, but ultimately you couldn't appear in a warzone with, say, better-than-daily-level gear.

[aleiro]

 

So tell me, why would I waste my time earning PVP gear, even if we assume you magically found a way to keep pvp gear in line with pve gear every patch along the way so pvpers could never fall behind in pvp?

 

Because you like PvP and don't like to PvE. The people that love to do PvP a lot more than PvE would still benefit from it, and will not see it as a waste of time. If you like to PvE, then you will get access to similar gear and can do the odd PvP scenario if you want without being facerolled.

 

The way to keep PvP gear up to date is every time they add a new tier of PvE gear, they also add a new tier of PvP gear. It can't be that hard. it's just gear., and you just add a new vendor and new valor rank requirements.

 

I am more of a PvP kind of player and I see this as a good way to keep it all balanced.

 

I don't think doing tons of PvP will be a waste of time since I enjoy it a lot.

 

I will get rewarded for doing that ton of PvP and I don't have to worry about doing the 16-man raids. If you like to raid a lot and don't have tons of time to spend on pvp, then you can still have access to that with your hard earned raid gear and you will not outgear anyone.

 

if you like to do both then you have access to both and you can mix set pieces of both pvp and pve gear to have different bonuses.

[Tristita]

Expertise needs to stay.

 

Hello, I'm the other side of this absurdly bias arguement. I PvP, I hate raiding. I find endgame PvE to require all the ability as a child following a line behind teacher in Pre-school. No functional gear rewards in PvP? So what happens in a few months (JUST LIKE IN WOW for years) when the nerd virgin basement dwelling losers get decked out in full nightmare raiding gear. Should they be able to just walk into warzones with their tricked out raid gear and 2 shot everyone? Why shouldn't I, a full time PvPer have an advantage over people who kill digital dragons, something that has NOTHING to do with PvP when they are allowed to wear their super dragon gear in Warzones?

 

Want to take gear progression out of PvP? Then take Gear progression out of PvE as well, exact same justification. Raiding is about fun after all.

 

In 'another game' that I still PvP in time to time, I've been Gladiator 6 times and High Warlord. I've seen this arguement happen time and time again and it's always raiders and bad pvpers who want to wear raid gear in Warzones and destroy EVERYONE without a stat like Resilence or Expertise in place to protect other players, never once thinking about everyone else who doesn't want to get TWO SHOT because they hate raiding. So heres an idea. Offer the best gear for PvPing to people who PvP, and offer the best gear for nerd virgin basement dwelling dragon slaying to raiders.

 

 

Oh. Wait.....

[aleiro]

Just offer the same gear to both

 

and let the raiding basement dwellers keep raiding at the same time, no?