Thoughts from a Tactics Vanguard (PVE)

[Tires]

Well lets start with "Who am I?"

 

I'm a fairly experienced player with around seven years of raiding in WoW as a tank, healer, ranged, but primarily melee DPS. I also spent minimal time raiding in Rift as a melee dps'r.

 

Currently I am 4/5 HM EV as a Tactics (8/31/3) specced vanguard.

 

Although we do not have any way of telling if the vanguard's DPS output is similar to other classes, I have noticed several anecdotal bits of information.

 

In a situation where I am required to DPS a single target while the guy next to me is required to DPS a different but identical and equal health target, regardless of that person's class, we are within seconds of each other.

 

When my 8 person raid focuses on a single target, and I am unable to contribute DPS, the health of that single target decreases considerably slower.

 

When a boss requires melee to run slightly out of range of a stomp or other AoE effect, I am able to effectively continue DPS'ing.

 

I am able to empty my ammo and burn the boss, then replenish my ammo by either "recharge cells" or while avoiding a boss mechanic, then able to burn once again if necessary.

 

With the 8/31/3 spec my skills flow into one another very well and I typically have a buff up for the next attack. I can sustain my rotation for several minutes before losing full ammo regen, without the use of replenishment cool downs or hammer shot.

 

------------------------------

 

However, with all this in mind, I am currently leveling a sentinel alt in case we do discover that this anecdotal information does not accurately represent the damage capabilities of the Vanguard Advanced Class.

[Daecollo]

Tactics tree does less damage then shielding tree.

[Tires]

Tactics tree does less damage then shielding tree.

 

Although we do not have any way of telling if the vanguard's DPS output is similar to other classes, I have noticed several anecdotal bits of information.

 

In a situation where I am required to DPS a single target while the guy next to me is required to DPS a different but identical and equal health target, regardless of that person's class, we are within seconds of each other.

 

See above statement to contradict your own.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Tires

[Guurzak]

Tires, that's a good post and it's hard to do any serious analysis with the tools available- but let me throw a scenario at you and see if it jibes with you experience.

 

Hypothesize that Tactics does 20% less damage than other DPS specs. On a 15 second burndown, you'd finish your mob "within seconds" of the other guy- 3 seconds later, specifically. And you'd still be a big chunk of your raid's dps: losing .8 of a dpser would absolutely slow down an 8-man's kills. But the spec would still be underpowered and in need of tuning, and highly optimized ops teams would rightfully refuse you a slot.

 

I'm not saying that this is indeed the scenario. I'm just saying that the experiences you report don't necessarily demonstrate that Tactics is on par, only that it's at least somewhat functional.

[Tires]

I'm just saying that the experiences you report don't necessarily demonstrate that Tactics is on par, only that it's at least somewhat functional.

 

I agree with all of this. It is possible, even plausible that Tactics (or vanguards in general) are experiencing lower damage outputs than other AC's. However, it is equally plausible that we are on par, or surpassing others.

 

I chose my wording carefully. "Within seconds" applies not only to the scoundrel who beats me by a second or two, but the sentinel who I regularly have time to run towards and ion pulse once.

 

Now maybe a better player in that Sentinel's shoes would have shaved off a second, but that is pretty damn close for me.

 

But much more intelligent response than the inundation of "Vanguard are tanks" I see here every day. Thank you.

[Mikayo]

Thank you for posting this, Tires. I appreciate 1. the fact that you're raiding as a Tactics Vanguard and 2. you took time to let the rest of us know that tactics is definitely probably not as broken as people have made it sound.

[grandmasterub]

Whether or not tactics dps is "on par" the whole tree still just feels clunky. there isnt a ton of synergy if you go all the way to Tier 7.

 

I'd like to see some improvements to the tactics tree namely adding synergy between skills in the tree, HEC which the tree seems intended to use, and with out primary skills like HiB, SS, ion pulse, etc.

[Tires]

Whether or not tactics dps is "on par" the whole tree still just feels clunky. there isnt a ton of synergy if you go all the way to Tier 7.

 

I'd like to see some improvements to the tactics tree namely adding synergy between skills in the tree, HEC which the tree seems intended to use, and with out primary skills like HiB, SS, ion pulse, etc.

 

I use HEC and follow the post Grimgold made regarding dps rotations. Firepulse flows into SS, followed by gut which usullay procs a crit HiB, then a few full auto and ion pulse for filler. I rarely hammer shot.

 

If I know I can blow my ammo, and use a cool down, or if there is melee downtime... i do my rotation and spam Ion pulse til OOM (Out of munitions).

Edited January 19, 2012 by Tires

[Waagabond]

Have you tried assault?

Or a hybrid assault/tactics spec.

 

There is simply no way full tactics can beat that buddy.

 

Having both incendiary shot AND Gut. Or going full assault for assault plastique together with the pve talents above which does huge damage.

 

Tactics is not a PVE dps tree. Its a PVP DPS tree, giving you great mobility and survival tools.

Assault is pure dps.

 

You will have your recharge cells in a boss fight, on roughly 45 seconds cool down in that tree, if not less.

 

Tactics works fine however, but it is not on par of a full assault or a hybrid assault/tactics spec. It simply, mathematically even, cant remotely compete, and in practice, it sure dont.

 

Even so, the most important is whats fun to play, and honestly, full Tactics does work great as well, its just about if you want to squeeze in another 10 to 20% dps, which you do lack when you go full tactics.

[Tires]

Have you tried assault?

Or a hybrid assault/tactics spec.

 

There is simply no way full tactics can beat that buddy.

 

You can't possibly know this without any way to compare the two. last night i specced the hybrid spec that another forum post had recommended. It was mostly assault and although I had much higher numbers in war zones, it was nowhere near as playable or produced as much damage as tactics. Now I recognize that I can not know this with certainty but here is what happened:

 

We hit the enrage timer 4 times on the first boss in HM EV. I left, respecced, came back and we had zero problems.

 

 

Having both incendiary shot AND Gut. Or going full assault for assault plastique together with the pve talents above which does huge damage.

 

Having gut and incendiary shot is pretty powerful, however, I found that putting up two dots drops you down to slow ammo regen, then you can either fire off a nade or SS and your ammo is now at its lowest regen stage. From there you either A. Recharge cells of B. Start Hammer shotting for awhile.

 

Then, your dots need reapplying so you blow everything you just regen'd to reapply them, all the while you have been auto attacking a boss while the rest of your raid is doing the real damage.

 

Tactics is not a PVE dps tree. Its a PVP DPS tree, giving you great mobility and survival tools.

Assault is pure dps.

 

Considering the fact that assault is the shared tree between the two AC's and has the superior mobility and range of the two specs, along with several talents that increase cell generation when damaged and reduce stun damage; it would appear to me that Assault is the preferred PVP tree.

 

You will have your recharge cells in a boss fight, on roughly 45 seconds cool down in that tree, if not less.

 

I covered this before, but essentially recharge cells is necessary to make this spec work because your nade, gut and Incendiary round will take half your ammo and you will still need to SS and ion pulse to proc your HiB. Meaning you will be hammer shotting A LOT.

 

Tactics works fine however, but it is not on par of a full assault or a hybrid assault/tactics spec. It simply, mathematically even, cant remotely compete, and in practice, it sure dont.

 

Mathematically we haven't been able to see the output in a real environment, all you can go on at the moment is a Warzone DPS chart which is not reflective of single target DPS capabilities.

 

its just about if you want to squeeze in another 10 to 20% dps, which you do lack when you go full tactics.

 

Again this percentage is unfounded and more of a knee jerk, gut reaction to yuor personal views of the design of the talent trees.

 

------------------------

 

Not that I am here to simply shoot down your points, but in the end each point you present as fact can be interpreted as a biased opinion. Tactics has shown no real examples of falling behind, nor does its talent trees lend to more PvP survivability than the next tree.

[Hirokinae]

Interesting thread. I'm 5/5 HM EV myself as a hybrid assault/tactics vanguard, and have found tactics to be a little lacking. Dont get me wrong, it is still a viable spec in the hands of the right player, however i've found that against the spec I am using, it is rather lackluster. refer to my thread if you want to check out my spec.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399

 

Essentially, my problem with tactics, is that most of its damage is mitigated by armor, where almost all of the damage done by assault punches through it. I'd like to note however, that tactics is VERY ammo friendly. The main upside is that its ammo consumption is much less strict that assault's, but the tradeoff is that the potential for damage isn't up to par.

 

Comparing the two side by side:

 

The main advantage a hybrid assault has over tactics, is that High impact bolt hits harder than any ability that tactics has. period. It also pierces through armor, which gives it a further advantage. It is refreshed by both stockstrike and ion pulse, meaning the only ability that could give HIB a run for its money: Fire pulse, simply cannot be used as often and still doesn't hit as hard.

 

Tactics makes your stockstrikes crit 30% harder, but is offset by the "assault trooper" ability.

 

When we compare Gut vs Incendiary Round, IR wins out hands down. Gut is FULLY affected by armor, and does less damage overall than incendiary round, while IR fully bypasses armor, and does as much base damage as gut 15 seconds even with gut talented.

 

The main thing tactics has over assault, is the ability to crit high impact bolt. However, 25% to proc isn't too amazing, and with crit levels reaching 30% + in columi gear, its usefulness is good, but offset by the fact that Assault's HIB crits harder, does more base damage, and can be refreshed.

 

One very very positive aspect of tactics, is that Pulse Generator makes it the better aoe spec hands down. There is no getting around that tactics aoe with pulse generator, tactical tools, is much, much better than assault's.

 

Also, although you CAN still move of melee and still do good damage, being out of melee for any extended period of time (chasing down soa and mind traps, running from lightning orbs) (Running away from Gharj's Frenzy and transitions) etc. causes a HUGE dps loss from not being able to use stockstrike, and not being able to refresh gut also means you might be unable to hit high impact bolt

 

that being said, i find tactics to still be a very viable dps spec, and still do very good dps. However, my experience with both specs while raiding makes me lean heavily in favor of assault as having a higher output, with more leeway in being ranged.

The one fight i have been able to judge my dps on, is the 4th EV boss; the council fight. I started assault on that fight, and killed my add first by a good 3-4%. When i switched to tactics the following week, i finished a good 5-6% behind the fastest person. Same raid, same people.

 

I believe tactics does need a bit of tweaking, and I see tactics as what SHOULD be our pve dps spec, but as is, needs work.

 

The poster above who says that tactics is our pvp spec has no idea what they are talking about. It simply does not have the burst that assault does. a Assault spec with Assault plastique, high impact bolts, and plasma cell ticks provides more burst than tactics ever could. Sure, tactics has more mobility, but thats only because it NEEDS to be in melee to put out any sort of damage. Assault can open up with its hardest burst sittin 30 meters away before closing in for the finish.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Hirokinae

[Mhak]

Tires, buddy...

 

Tactics and the counterpart Advanced Prototype are not the PvE dps trees. They do far, far less DPS than Assault Specialist/Pyrotech respectively. Far less. Not a little less. Far. Less.

 

Before you go hide behind your shield of "NO COMBAT LOGS YET, YOU CAN'T PROVE IT NYANYA", hear me out. Anybody who has tested both those specs in a controlled PvE endgame scenario - say someone like me on the Council fight in EV having timed how long it took to down to down the same council member twice, once as each spec - along with anybody who's simply tested both of them offhandedly in HMs, will all tell you the same thing. That thing is "Tactics and Advanced Prototype do nowhere near the damage of Assault Specialist/Pyrotech in any scenario."

 

I'd estimate around 20-30% less sustained DPS in PvE situations. PvP the fights are so quick and sporadic that it plays favorably into Tactics/AP's hands, although *still* the damage is way less, just not so massively noticeable as in PvE raids.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Mhak

[grandmasterub]

Interesting thread. I'm 5/5 HM EV myself as a hybrid assault/tactics vanguard, and have found tactics to be a little lacking. Dont get me wrong, it is still a viable spec in the hands of the right player, however i've found that against the spec I am using, it is rather lackluster. refer to my thread if you want to check out my spec.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399

 

wouldn't this yield more or better dps while providing better ammo regeneration?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801ZMsrrobcoZfG0rzG.1

 

you might even be able to move 2 points from recharge cells to either ST increase HiB damage, or pulse generator in TT

[marchesq]

I'll be honest with you. I think it is almost impossible to be effective in PVE raids as tactics. You have to get really close to mobs that punish you for being melee.

 

I lov tactics in PVP, but PVE it's not as effective.

[Hirokinae]

wouldn't this yield more or better dps while providing better ammo regeneration?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801ZMsrrobcoZfG0rzG.1

 

you might even be able to move 2 points from recharge cells to either ST increase HiB damage, or pulse generator in TT

 

No. It does the exact opposite. It makes it so that you have to put up both gut and incendiary round, meaning thats 5 ammo right off the bat which puts you below 8. In addition it means you can't HIB right after cause that will gimp your ammo even further. 1 High impact bolt does more damage instantly than a single gut + its bleed, with 1 ammo cost, in addition to potentially having no ammo cost. So if you take that into consideration, all you gain is a CHANCE to crit HIB, and potential free stockstrike. That ability is also wasted because normally you want to use that with a fire pulse build for the 100% free stockstrike.

 

You LOSE 9% damage on almost all of your abilities, 30% crit damage on your hardest hitting abilities, 9% aim, 6% HIB damage, 6% elemental damage.

 

absolutely not worth it.

[Kesrik]

No. It does the exact opposite. It makes it so that you have to put up both gut and incendiary round, meaning thats 5 ammo right off the bat which puts you below 8. In addition it means you can't HIB right after cause that will gimp your ammo even further. 1 High impact bolt does more damage instantly than a single gut + its bleed, with 1 ammo cost, in addition to potentially having no ammo cost. So if you take that into consideration, all you gain is a CHANCE to crit HIB, and potential free stockstrike. That ability is also wasted because normally you want to use that with a fire pulse build for the 100% free stockstrike.

 

You LOSE 9% damage on almost all of your abilities, 30% crit damage on your hardest hitting abilities, 9% aim, 6% HIB damage, 6% elemental damage.

 

absolutely not worth it.

 

The spec he linked actually does incredible sustained damage. You almost never have to press Hammer Shot, so you end up proccing HIB a lot more. Your HIBs don't hit as hard, BUT you throw out a lot more of them.

 

Also, you regenerate ammo while using your abilities. In the 3 seconds (2 globals) it takes you to apply both your dots, you've regenerated 1.8 ammo (.6 ammo/sec). In practice, you would only apply gut once you've established your proc rotation and have both free stock strike and HIB coming up.

 

I would take points out of Rapid Recharge since you almost never have ammo problems even while never hammer shotting.

[Hirokinae]

You dont GAIN any damage, except through the 25% chance to crit HIB, and the ability to use gut. If you're doing the rotation right, theres no way you can keep your ammo up while trying to apply both dots, use HIB, use Ion pulse, and your first stockstrike which will not be a free one. If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap. Also, compared to my spec

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfI0bkGhM.1

 

You dont use HIB more. Rather, you would probably be able to use it less because you dont have to use up a GCD on guts periodically, because both specs refresh HIB with the same abilities.

 

The only thing you gain damage-wise, is a chance to crit high impact bolt, and a 25% chance to get a free stockstrike. Thats it. Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Hirokinae

[grandmasterub]

Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.

 

most of guts damage comes from bleed which is internal and is uneffected by armor...

[thepowerforce]

I think by far shield is the best

[Hirokinae]

most of guts damage comes from bleed which is internal and is uneffected by armor...

 

The initial damage is kinetic which is reduced by armor. Thats a little less than half the damage. My main point however, is that what you're giving up damage-wise isn't worth being able to pick up gut and a 25% chance to crit high impact bolt.

 

your gains are: Gut; 25% chance to crit HIB

 

Losses:

9% damage from HIB, hammershot, stockstrock, fullauto;

30% increased crit damage from HIB, plasma cell, incendiary round

6% high impact bolt damage

6% elemental damage

9% AIM

 

Sure you gain a little bit of utility, but for PVE raiding dps, the utility is almost useless, and the only thing remotely useful is the 2% damage reduction.

[Kesrik]

You dont GAIN any damage, except through the 25% chance to crit HIB, and the ability to use gut. If you're doing the rotation right, theres no way you can keep your ammo up while trying to apply both dots, use HIB, use Ion pulse, and your first stockstrike which will not be a free one. If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap.

 

If you actually read my post, you would have noticed I said that you only apply Gut when you've already established your rotation and procced free Stock Strike + HIB. You hit abilities as they proc for maximum efficiency. Try wrapping you mind around NOT hitting an ability as soon as it comes off of cd.

 

Also, compared to my spec

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfI0bkGhM.1

 

So, you gave up one of the best scaling abilities in the game (Assault Plastique) and 30% extra damage on your dots during execute phase to buff your crit chance? What's laughable is that you don't even put points into Adrenaline Fueled, which means all that extra crit (6% lol) has absolutely no synergy with your spec.

 

You dont use HIB more. Rather, you would probably be able to use it less because you dont have to use up a GCD on guts periodically, because both specs refresh HIB with the same abilities.

 

The only thing you gain damage-wise, is a chance to crit high impact bolt, and a 25% chance to get a free stockstrike. Thats it. Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.

 

What you don't seem to comprehend is that Gut is only used when you have the extra ammo to apply it. Just because a button is there doesn't mean you should press it. What a free stock strike means is that you can Ion Pulse more, which means you can proc HIB more, which regenerates more ammo, which allows you to Ion Pulse more. Just because you can't comprehend talent synergy doesn't mean it doesn't do way more damage than that horrible spec you linked. Try actually playing the specs once in a while, instead of making bad assumptions via faulty theory crafting.

[Hirokinae]

If you actually read my post, you would have noticed I said that you only apply Gut when you've already established your rotation and procced free Stock Strike + HIB. You hit abilities as they proc for maximum efficiency. Try wrapping you mind around NOT hitting an ability as soon as it comes off of cd.

 

 

So, you gave up one of the best scaling abilities in the game (Assault Plastique) and 30% extra damage on your dots during execute phase to buff your crit chance? What's laughable is that you don't even put points into Adrenaline Fueled, which means all that extra crit (6% lol) has absolutely no synergy with your spec.

 

 

What you don't seem to comprehend is that Gut is only used when you have the extra ammo to apply it. Just because a button is there doesn't mean you should press it. What a free stock strike means is that you can Ion Pulse more, which means you can proc HIB more, which regenerates more ammo, which allows you to Ion Pulse more. Just because you can't comprehend talent synergy doesn't mean it doesn't do way more damage than that horrible spec you linked. Try actually playing the specs once in a while, instead of making bad assumptions via faulty theory crafting.

 

Ok, so we're down to personal attacks? I've cleared hardmode EV/karraga's, and I'm progressing into nightmare EV / Karragas with my spec, and its been tried and proven. Before we devolve into a pointless flamefest, I'd like to point out that If you're only using Gut when you've got the ammo to spare, then you're pretty much wasting the main reason you're using the spec in the first place.

 

You only get a free stockstrike every 3-4 Ion pulse GCD's, and then you waste the ammo you just saved on gut.

My point is, stead of wasting a GCD on gut, you could fit in another ion pulse which has a 30% chance to proc HIB, which would definitely hit harder than a GUT would.

if we were to try to translate that into math.

So with your spec:

1 Ion pulse = 30% chance to save 2 ammo on stock strike + 30% to proc HIB which saves you a net of 3 ammo. (free HIB =2 ammo plus 1 ammo gained from high friction bolts)

30% x 2 ammo = .6

30% x 3 ammo = .9

 

So, 1 ion pulse = .6 ammo saved + .9 ammo saved = 1.5 ammo saved.

Cost of ion pulse = 2 ammo

Net cost of ion pulse = .5 ammo

We'll also say gut = 2 ammo spent, since it doesn't any procs related to it, and is simply ammo dumped on the ability use.

 

If we were to use 4 GCDs.

.5 + .5 + .5 + 2 = 3.5 ammo

 

With my spec:

1 ion pulse = .9 ammo saved

net cost of ion pulse = 1.1 ammo

 

If we were to use 4 GCDs

1.1 x 4 = 4.4 ammo

 

The ammo saved certainly is nice, and comes out to about .225 ammo per ion pulse GCD, but the tradeoff is you lose out on an extra 30% chance to proc HIB bolt.

My point is, you're not magically gaining a ton of ammo like you tried to imply, and you're losing out on a lot more.

Which also means for every 8-9 ion pulses, you've saved up enough ammo to be equivalent to 1 extra ion pulse.

In exchange, you lose out on about 1 HIB bolt because you've also burned 2-3 GCDs on gut instead of the extra ion pulse.

 

So, it would take a little less than 9 ion pulses to gain that "extra" ion pulse, when you could've just had an extra HIB from using 2-3 ion pulses instead of GUT.

 

 

The spec i've researched revolves around maximizing high-impact bolt damage while being able to use it as much as possible. Assault plastique damage is Kinetic damage, which I have tested and is indeed affected by armor in PVE. High impact bolt scales just as well as assault plastique, if not better, since it is armor piercing, and can be used at a much greater frequency than assault plastique. Adreneline fueled is a lackluster dps talent, and will save you at most, 3 ammo every minute or so. Not worth the 2 points.

That aside, we were comparing the gut hybrid vs the assault hybrid, not assault hybrid vs full assault, so your arguments there are kind of a fallacy which directs your arguments away from the issue.

 

To sum it up, if you aren't maximizing gut damage by having it up 100% of the time, then you are essentially wasting the main point of the mostly tactics hybrid. That means the only thing you gain is the 25% chance to crit high impact bolt.

 

when you take into account the fact that your high impact bolts now crit for about 50% less, it makes it not worth it at all.

 

Once again, you are losing 6% elemental damage, 9% aim, 9% base damage on your main abilities, 6% base damage on HIB, and 30% crit damage on plamsa, HIB, and IR.

 

I am simply trying to find the spec that gives the highest dps output. Period. I have tried a multitude of specs, and if there is conclusive evidence that one spec is better than another, I am always open to try out something new, and am not biased towards any. If tactics put out more dps than assault, I would love to use it, since I see tactics as more of the vanguard pve spec, and in all honestly love the gut animation and almost had to force myself to go assault simply because it was pulling better numbers.

 

Please keep your criticism constructive, and instead of throwing around random insults, you could actually provide numbers and more tangible proof. You didn't compare the specs side by side, and chose to launch pointless attacks instead.

 

I'm trying to help out our class in general by comparing and debating one spec vs. another. If you want a flame war, please do it somewhere else.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Hirokinae

[Kesrik]

I made sweeping generalizations about you just like you made sweeping generalizations about me. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's flaming? Good logic.

 

On topic: the hybrid spec I've linked is the highest damage of any Vanguard Spec. What you failed to consider in your napkin math is that extra ammo means extra Ion Pulse which leads to more ammo which leads to more Ion Pulse. The auto crit on HIB is just icing on the cake.

 

Regarding your spec: my point was that you don't even do as much damage as a full Assault Vanguard, let alone a Tactics/Assault hybrid. You managed to skip good talents just to pick up sub-par ones.

 

There is no need to compare specs side by side. Since there are no damage meters, you don't actually know how much of your damage actually comes from each attack over the course of a fight. Thus, all the +% talents you picked up could very well amount to a miniscule amount of damage. What I tried to offer with my first post was what I've seen actually playing the spec. Instead of being constructive, you immediately resorted to:

 

If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap. .

 

If I don't agree with you, I obviously either haven't played the spec, or am probably doing it wrong. Very constructive. Next time, take your own advice.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Kesrik

[Hirokinae]

I made sweeping generalizations about you just like you made sweeping generalizations about me. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's flaming? Good logic.

 

On topic: the hybrid spec I've linked is the highest damage of any Vanguard Spec. What you failed to consider in your napkin math is that extra ammo means extra Ion Pulse which leads to more ammo which leads to more Ion Pulse. The auto crit on HIB is just icing on the cake.

 

Regarding your spec: my point was that you don't even do as much damage as a full Assault Vanguard, let alone a Tactics/Assault hybrid. You managed to skip good talents just to pick up sub-par ones.

 

There is no need to compare specs side by side. Since there are no damage meters, you don't actually know how much of your damage actually comes from each attack over the course of a fight. Thus, all the +% talents you picked up could very well amount to a miniscule amount of damage. What I tried to offer with my first post was what I've seen actually playing the spec. Instead of being constructive, you immediately resorted to:

 

If I don't agree with you, I obviously either haven't played the spec, or am probably doing it wrong. Very constructive. Next time, take your own advice.

 

You have absolutely zero math or proof behind your opinion about the vanguard spec being the highest dps. There are no meters so you "saying" that it is the highest dps isn't true and shows that you are the one making false generalizations. I dont say my spec is the absolute best, i'm saying "i believe my spec provides the most dps, and this is why"

 

You obviously dont understand the math behind the fact that extra ammo every 8-9 ion pulse doesn't steamroll into an infinite amount of ion pulses. You are STILL locked by the fact that stockstrike has a cooldown, and you are still locked by the fact that ion pulse is on a GCD. getting a free ion pulse doesn't mean you get more ion pulses which generate more off GCD ion pulses, it just means you're saving ammo. What i'm saying is that saving .2 ammo per GCD isn't worth instead having an extra chance to get a free HIB, especially when you factor in that the HIB in my spec does much more.

 

Considering that both our rotations REVOLVE around stockstrike, HIB, and hammershot, and incendiary round and ion pulse, it is safe to say that 9% damage to 4/5 of those abilities is not miniscule.

 

9% extra aim alone equates to roughly 4-5% of my base damage for ALL of my abilities in my rakata gear. I've done the math by switching out gear and calculating my aim, then looking at the tooltips for damage on abilities.

 

6% extra base damage + 30% extra crit damage on our hardest hitting ability is not minisucle, and neither is 6% extra base damage on our most spammed ability.

 

Like I said, I've actually played and tried the spec you've linked, and it was the first spec that I tried. While I was using it, I found that in order to keep 100% uptime on both dots, the ammo requirement was simply too high. If you didn't keep gut up 100% of the time, it defeats the purpose of having gut in the first place, since GUT and 25% HIB crit are the only straight dps gains you receive. It wasn't a sweeping generalization, it was based off of experience playing the actual spec. You threw out disparaging remarks and insults without even providing any real evidence to your claim besides "you save ammo using stockstrike and then you can use more ion pulses" Thats it. The rest of your response devolves into trying to attack my spec by saying "well the +% COULD be minimal." and "a full assault does more dps" Why? Because apparently you said so.

 

without meters, its hard to know which of the specs are absolute top. If you look at my thread, I've actually done work, math, and stat tweaks to try to find out which does more. I can't say mine is the absolute best, because i dont know if it is with 100% certainty.

 

You've already made "absolute" remarks by saying that spec is "the top dps spec" without any hard evidence or proof besides "because i said so". Theres math out theorizing that assault plastique is not worth it in pve either because using a combination of HIB and ion pulse could theoretically provide more dps, especially since HIB pierces armor and assault plastique does not. If you would like me to direct you to that site, I'll gladly do so.

 

I'm open to any spec, and just trying to find which one is best. Your arguments have had no math, no evidence, and seem to pull out magical claims out of nowhere. I've tried a number of different specs, and will continue to tinker with and work the math on this one for now since out of the numerous specs i've tried, it seems to be pulling the most. If you actually come back with any real evidence to support your claim, maybe i'll even come back to that spec and give it another whirl to try out the numbers.

 

Till then, i'll continue my thread and try to help out other vanguards who are trying to min-max despite the lack of a combatlog.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Hirokinae

[shucksy]

Just to clarify, Combat Tactics makes your Stock Strike and Gut have a 25% chance to proc a buff which gives your next HiB 100% chance to crit, it's not the other way around. Since you get 3 chances to proc the buff between each HiB you'll usually be critting it.