The reusable medpacks for Biochem are the most overpowered item ive seen in any MMO

[Xenodrake]

Here is the thing about the crafting professions is yes the bop stuf they make is a joke to stats but it is the fact when you make one it can crit for the augment slot so then you use that and mods from the raid gear and replace the blue mods it came with makeing it somewhat useful. the only downfall it takes 3 biometric allows to craft one. and bio only needs 1. im talking bout the sabers from artifice.

[Aepervius]

Exactly.

 

The purpose of tradeskills is SUPPOSED to be to create items to SELL to other people to earn money.

 

Fluff perks are fine (like a mount skin, armor skin, weapon skin) but items like Reusable Medpacks are not. The ability to pop a high lvl medpack for free every few minutes is disgustingly OP.

 

Its only a matter of time before Bioware finally realizes this mistake they made with Biochem and the reusable medpacks and 1 of 3 things will happen.

 

1. They will allow all reusable medpacks (or most) to be tradeable and usable by anyone= Smart move

 

2. They will remove reusable medpacks from the game entirely= The RIGHT move but it will anger many many people

 

3. They will keep it as is until 99% of the playerbase becomes Biochem and tens of thousands of people unsub over the issue

 

 

 

The problem is then WHAT do you replace purple with ? They cost too much to engineeer and get. if you make them consumable then there is NO REASON whatsoever to make them (getting the rare material is too expansive for a single use). So why should biochem be the only one with no interrest whatsoever into making purple ?

Edited January 18, 2012 by Aepervius

[Belchie]

The problem is then WHAT do you replace purple with ? They cost too much to engineeer and get. if you make them consumable then there is NO REASON whatsoever to make them (getting the rare material is too expansive for a single use). So why should biochem be the only one with no interrest whatsoever into making purple ?

 

 

Meh, just let it go. They aren't looking for a reasonable answer or solution at all. Likely none of those complaining so loudly have put any work into Biochem, or they would realize the things you've pointed out. But they aren't going to listen to you. They just want to rant publicly about things they don't understand.

[Angelfeeties]

People such as the OP are seriously short-sighted. You act like Biochem are the only people who can benefit from medpacs, stims and adrenals. What's stopping you from picking another profession and then having your guild Biochemist make you Prototype Ultimate Medpacs? "Oh god, it's not reusable! I have to, you know, actually re-stock on potions, flasks, foo...errr I mean, medpacs, stims, adrenals." Grow up. You're like the little kid down the block who got a blue bike for Christmas but is complaining about another kid who got a red bike with a bell.

[ZNICK]

Anyone who thinks this skill (even in it's old form) was "OP" must have hit his head when he fell off the turnip truck.

 

Yes, once it was created it was "free", but you spent a fortune getting there.

 

Something that anyone could buy better of is not "OP". Credits come SO easily in this game it's not even silly. At level 45 I had 1.5 million credits. If everyone else had no means of anything equal in healking THAT's "OP", not just the fact you have to pay for it.

 

You could roll bio too cracker!

 

Bioware just should have come up with equally good items for the other skills instead of nerfing this one.

 

Z

Edited January 18, 2012 by ZNICK

[Darth_Philar]

I'm really failing to see what the issue is...

If you aren't Biochem you buy medpacks or your guild's Bichem guy makes you a bunch for your raid. If you are Biochem you make a single medpack and reuse it which simply removes the hassle of making lots of them.

 

I don't see anyone complaining about being able to reuse those nifty modifications on their weapons and armor.

[thanealpha]

People such as the OP are seriously short-sighted. You act like Biochem are the only people who can benefit from medpacs, stims and adrenals. What's stopping you from picking another profession and then having your guild Biochemist make you Prototype Ultimate Medpacs? "Oh god, it's not reusable! I have to, you know, actually re-stock on potions, flasks, foo...errr I mean, medpacs, stims, adrenals." Grow up. You're like the little kid down the block who got a blue bike for Christmas but is complaining about another kid who got a red bike with a bell.

 

1> The consumables are NOT available in sufficient quantity. Not even close.

2> The price of the existing consumables is prohibative.

 

Let's just look at medpacks. They average ~2k-3k a PIECE for anything that is in that 2500-3500 heal range. These aren't even the best ones, and don't have the built in HoT that the purple reusables have.

 

Let's say I want to use one every 90 seconds in warfronts. Average warzone lets say is 12 minutes just to be conservative. That's 8 medpacks a warzone. Or roughly 20k EACH warzone. I ran 18 warzones last night. That'd be 360k credits JUST for warzones. NOT counting STIMs.

 

It's also 144 medpacks, a number that does not exist on the AH even if I had the money/desire to buy them. And what if all 4 of the people in my kin who wanted to queue for them wanted to buy...that's 576 medpacks. Who is going to craft all these?!?!? Even if we had dedicated BioChem people in our guild we'd never be able to crank out the THOUSANDS we'd need a week to just keep competative in PvP queues.

 

Add in that top tier stims are selling for 20-30k...and it gets insane, REAL fast.

 

Reusables are BROKEN unless EVERY crafting class has access to one that is relatively balanced in usefullness.

 

Otherwise those PvPers who go Biochem will always and forever have a MASSIVE advantage over those who are not. It's really as simple as that.

 

To claim otherwise shows a complete lack of basic economics.

[thanealpha]

I'm really failing to see what the issue is...

If you aren't Biochem you buy medpacks or your guild's Bichem guy makes you a bunch for your raid. If you are Biochem you make a single medpack and reuse it which simply removes the hassle of making lots of them..

 

Who is going to make me 3000 medpacks a week?

 

I don't see anyone complaining about being able to reuse those nifty modifications on their weapons and armor.

 

Because mods for non-mod making classes don't need to be re-added EVERY 90 SECONDS!!!

 

I think you're failing to understand entirely. You want lightsaber hilts to be consumable every 90 seconds? And ONLY Artifice players can have a permanent hilt? Fine.

 

That'd be functionally equivalent to the advantage that BioChem currently has.

[DarthCire]

So what i find most funny is the transgression of how things went and the QQ that goes along with it. First there was Slicing and everyone and there mother must have had it and it was sooooo OP blaa blaa blaa so BW nerfs in and now there was QQ that those who were slicers would have to pick up a new class as the cost to send your people out weren't yielding a profit. So instead of actually taking a Gathering skill and OMG looking for nodes for free money slicers whined and whined on the forms. Now we come to Biochem and there re-usable medpack. Personally I think this is an awesome concept (to which end I do not play a biochem) If they were to make it nerfed then they would have to drop the re-usability aspect of it or make a special item that is BOP that makes your medpacks either have a -30 sec duration timer and force biochems to make useable medpacs. Or make re-usable that heal for less then what everyone else is using but it can be used faster.

 

I think BW had made the wiser of the two decisions. Those people who are requiring an operation member to have biochem are idiots. You have healers for a reason and you learn fight mechs for a reason. if you look at WoW most people over there do not roll Alch because they can make potions despite that max level Herbalism will give and impressive ability that not only heals but increases Haste for a duration on a 2 min CD. Holy cow does that mean that WoW has a re-usable medpack... NO it means they have a cool ability that is usable when it's CD is up.

 

Eventually there will be more schematics that drop that will outweigh the OPness of other classes and EVERYONE and their mother with shift trade skills and whine and complain about that new trade skill as well. Personally I want to see trade skills that have more you must be this class to use or create and BOP items. I predict that sooner or later you will have lightsaber crystals that are BOp and they will be vastly better then what everyone else can get. Then the forms will be flooded with QQ on how Artifice is too OP, how their special "I can only use items" have unbalanced the game and they need to be nerfed

 

For the love of God this is the first major patch, quit the QQ and if you can't then Quit the game.

[KapitanAwesome]

This could also be fixed with a new schematic that crafts 5 or 10 medpacks at a time for a similar cost in materials. It would lower the time and cost for biochemists to produce, and make them more affordable for everyone else.

 

But if they became more affordable then the re-usable ones should be made just as strong.

[Starebear]

Exactly.

 

The purpose of tradeskills is SUPPOSED to be to create items to SELL to other people to earn money.

 

 

Says who?

and even if your right why would people buy anything i can make when vendors sell better for daily tokens, commendations..

[CapitaFK]

Bolded for emphasis mine.

 

The problem with this approach is this:

 

You're in a race. Your jetpack goes 5,000 MPH sustained velocity.

The 15 others' jetpacks range anywhere from 2,000 MPH -3,000 MPH sustained velocity.

 

Do you:

a) Make your jetpack go 2-3,000 MPH sustained velocity and even the playing field OR

b) Make the other 15 go up to 5,000 MPH sustained velocity?

 

Apply this to the MMO Nerf-Bat Meta Game (MMO NBMG) and the longer term solution is solution a. However, psychologically speaking, this makes a lot of people howl in terror because they don't want to perceive themselves being directly weakened; it's more palatable to the ego to simply not be in a compelling lead any longer by making everything "fair" again.

 

There's a problem with your analogy.

 

1. You have a 5,000 MPH jetpack (Biochem).

2. Everyone else has 3,000 MPH jetpacks (crafted armor/weaps/mods).

 

The part you missed was this...

 

3. Everyone has the chance to pick up 4,500 MPH jetpacks (raid armor/weaps/mods).

 

The problem is that Biochem has perks that make it useful even AFTER getting raid gear, while the other professions become useless once you're raid geared.

 

So nerfing the 5,000 MPH jetpack to 3,000 doesn't solve anything. It makes crafting useless in endgame.

 

The obvious solution is to buff the others so that crafting is useful and not an afterthought.

 

Some of you guys just scream nerf without thinking logically.

[Starflayer]

 

I think BW had made the wiser of the two decisions. Those people who are requiring an operation member to have biochem are idiots. You have healers for a reason and you learn fight mechs for a reason. if you look at WoW most people over there do not roll Alch because they can make potions despite that max level Herbalism will give and impressive ability that not only heals but increases Haste for a duration on a 2 min CD. Holy cow does that mean that WoW has a re-usable medpack... NO it means they have a cool ability that is usable when it's CD is up.

 

 

People like to bring up WoW's alchemy in these debates, but the major difference between the two crafting skills is that in Warcraft every single other crafting skill also granted its user a personal benefit beyond simply being able to craft gear. If alchemists had been granted a reusable flask, and all your gems and enchants could be purchased from dailies, then what incentive would you have had to take any other crafting skill? The epic patterns that drop from raids? That stuff served as little more than a stand in for gear that hadn't dropped off of a raid boss yet. No one cared about Crafted Awesome Chest Piece X if Dropped Awesome Chest Piece Y had already been obtained. At best the stuff was useful for alts or guilds that had a lot of trouble progressing.

 

Where we find ourselves with biochem at the moment is that it's the only one that offers any sort of end game incentive, that being that you don't have to spend huge amounts of credits buying stims and medpacks off that horrible excuse for an auction house, or pester your guild biochemists for them. You never have to worry about being ready for a raid. Some people might not view that as any sort of wonderful bonus, but it's more than any of the other crafting professions get. Farming a raid for patterns and mats for gear that's equivalent to what already drops in the raid your farming is not a terribly great incentive, and leaves biochem as the most practical choice for raiders.

 

Crafters don't necessarily need to be able to craft gear that superior to what's in a raid, but they need something. Right now, beyond the hope that interesting things will be added to the other professions, there's not much reason to take any of the other crew skills.

[MazterL]

What genious thought it would be a good idea to put something this blatantly OP into the game?

 

Then on top of it its only usable by the profession which makes them which is causing Biochem to be a requirement for raiding. I dont think I have ever played a game where a tradeskill was commonly required to raid before until now.

 

Mark my words. By the end of February once the general public knows about how OP Biochem is well over 50% of the playerbase WILL be Biochem.

 

SWTOR is becoming a dumpster fire fast and the Devs need to bring out some extinguishers and put out these problems before its too late.

 

Are you retarded?!? The MEDPACK IS OP?!?

 

This item is the Biochems Epic and it takes work to get it. You don't like it? Then YOU go biochem and use it!

 

Pardon the flaming but the medpacks should be rolled back to before the 1.1 as they 400 Rakata Epic is about useless now. Sure it gives 15% max health for 15% but with a 90 second cooldown it's ONLY useable in PvE and for WZs it's useless.

 

The healing classes are more OP than the 8K healing doen every 90 seconds from teh biochems Rakata and ONLY biochems at 400 can use it anyways.

 

I see more and more go for the Tracer Missile Spam, Operative 2 second killer ability and the force user healers as they are the ones that can heal for 300 in the same 90 seconds biochems can reuse their medpacks.

 

Bioware, bring back the biochems Rakata 8-9K healing, as DPS classes needs soemthing more than simple 5K heals to keep alive where Scorcerers can heal 300K AND deal 300K damage in teh same PvP match!

[DarthTHC]

Artifice: Spend a fortune getting a skill that lets you craft a lightsaber hilt usable by half the classes in the game that is easily replaced with 8 daily commendations by something better, while you spend 100k on stims for a single Hard mode dungeon.

 

Biochem: Spend a fortune getting a skill that lets you craft stims usable by every class in the game, and more powerful reusable ones for yourselfs, which are never replaced by anything that drops in even the hardest raid, while you spend nothing on stims, but get to sell them at ridiculously high prices.

 

Am I missing something here, Bioware?

 

You're missing at least two things:

 

1) The reusable BioChem items are LESS powerful than the equivalent non-reusable ones (the blue ones).

 

2) BioWare has said (though we have yet to see examples) that there are schematic drops in raids that make the other crafting skills worthwhile and compete with the daily commendation gear.

[DarthTHC]

1> The consumables are NOT available in sufficient quantity. Not even close.

2> The price of the existing consumables is prohibative.

 

Let's just look at medpacks. They average ~2k-3k a PIECE for anything that is in that 2500-3500 heal range. These aren't even the best ones, and don't have the built in HoT that the purple reusables have.

 

Let's say I want to use one every 90 seconds in warfronts. Average warzone lets say is 12 minutes just to be conservative. That's 8 medpacks a warzone. Or roughly 20k EACH warzone. I ran 18 warzones last night. That'd be 360k credits JUST for warzones. NOT counting STIMs.

 

It's also 144 medpacks, a number that does not exist on the AH even if I had the money/desire to buy them. And what if all 4 of the people in my kin who wanted to queue for them wanted to buy...that's 576 medpacks. Who is going to craft all these?!?!? Even if we had dedicated BioChem people in our guild we'd never be able to crank out the THOUSANDS we'd need a week to just keep competative in PvP queues.

 

Add in that top tier stims are selling for 20-30k...and it gets insane, REAL fast.

 

Reusables are BROKEN unless EVERY crafting class has access to one that is relatively balanced in usefullness.

 

Otherwise those PvPers who go Biochem will always and forever have a MASSIVE advantage over those who are not. It's really as simple as that.

 

To claim otherwise shows a complete lack of basic economics.

 

 

 

You just made a really good argument that the game is designed to support a vibrant economy but the players aren't ready to participate in it fully yet.

 

There is clearly demand. As you say, demand for thousands to tens of thousands of medpacks per server. Yet there's no supply.

 

I'd bet that some enterprising crafters are going to figure out how to fulfill that need. It's going to take Bioanalysts, Diplomats, and Biochemists working together. The Bioanalysts will run missions and gather raw materials and post them to the GTN. The Diplomats will run missions and post raw materials to the GTN. The Biochemists will buy those raw materials and craft them into medpacks and post those on the GTN.

 

Look, the design has given a whole lot of people who enjoy the crafting aspect of the game something to feel useful about.

 

Now we just need the game, players, and economy to mature a bit so this sort of cycle can get rolling.

[Havox]

I think there's a way to compromise on this issue.

 

Why not add in recipes that make medpacs/stims with the exact same healing/buff benefits as the unlimited-use-biochem-only items but with a limited use that would bind when used and is usable to anyone (perhaps 100 or so uses would be fair).

 

Biochems keep their infinitely usable medpac/ stim perk, and everyone else can share in the same type of benefit while biochems make a profit.

 

People would be able to have a comparable item without the market-breaking advantage of being infinitely reusable.

 

Just an idea on a way to compromise.

[pyradius]

Better yet, why not just perma-buff the entire player base with the benefits of stimpacks and give everyone a self-heal as a base class ability. Next, just put in a passive class ability called 'accounting' that just earns you credits over time, including while you're logged out.

[TheNotorius]

The new Rakata medpac isn't working.

 

I tested with 5HP: I used it, and I went from 5HP / 14.000 HP >> to >> 4.000HP / 16.000 HP

 

I hope it's bugged, otherwise the temporary 15% health increase is useless:

 

- How it should work: I should go to 6.000 HP / 16.000 HP, after 15 seconds the effect will vanish, and I should loose 15% hp (going back to 4.000 / 14.000 if no one attacked me)

 

EDIT: After the rage for few things this patch introduced, I think I lost my lucidity and my argument is wrong, I need to do a break probably.

Edited January 18, 2012 by TheNotorius

[theothersteve]

I'd bet that some enterprising crafters are going to figure out how to fulfill that need. It's going to take Bioanalysts, Diplomats, and Biochemists working together.

 

While I appreciate the tone, I feel you're missing the point. The problem is that you get three profession slots, and that those are the best three to have from gameplay, economic, and endgame perspectives. A mature economy in the current system, or even the proposed 1.1 system, will have 70%-80% of the players running these three professions to fit the demand. That's problematic, in my humble opinion.

 

There is a very good reason why World of Warcraft handles its highly limited reusable consumables the way it does. TOR has copied their consumable system to the letter, but changed the reusables. That is, simply, a mistake. They need to either further differentiate the system or alter the way reusables are handled.

[PotatoPaper]

Let me get this straight. The whiners out there are complaining that they can have reusable med packs right? Last time I checked armor, weapons, cybers, and so on don't last 90 seconds. How much are you selling those for by the way. Players have to replace them every 2-5lvls or so while thier lvling and your prefectly content to gouge them every step of the lvling process. Get to lvl 50 and bang...give me the cool stuff from this other crew skill which has slightly more viability endgame(at a moderate cost of viablility while lvling).

 

Next related issue is the nerf to the rate of reusable healing. A purple recipe that heals equal to a green. This is absurd in terms of scale. Enough said to that point.

 

Closely related is the consequence. If I have to choose between a reusable endless medpack that approaches worthlessness(it isn't yet but that is the direction) and one that is more useful which will I use? The more useful right? If the biochemists consume their own medpacks they won't be selling many to you will they? Do not whine for nerfs to biochemists reusable medpacks because THAT is what will make biochemist essential. THAT will kill the supply of available medpacks for those who are not biochemists.

 

Having viable reusable medpacks for the biochemists is essential. Additionally it is a purple recipe costing exponentially more to train. Give it purple quality. In other words make it like it was.

 

Think before you complain. If you still think your right test it in practice. Theory is nice but how does it feel?

[PotatoPaper]

There is a reason I play SWTOR and not WOW. I suspect this is true for many here.

[theothersteve]

I'd like to clear up that it is currently absolutely impossible to sell any piece of equipment on the GTN before level 50 for more than the cost to run the missions to make it. You get a new quest reward every 2-5 levels, and every player is absolutely swimming in random equipment drops from leveling.

 

That's normal, that's how it is in WoW, and the equipment economy in this game copies WoW's exactly. I'm okay with that. Of course, I didn't buy any biochem consumables until level 50 either.

 

Basically, if you aren't level 50, this discussion isn't for you. If you have different opinions, that's fine, but please wait to pass judgement until you've experienced the level 50 game that most of us are discussing.

[Darth_Philar]

Who is going to make me 3000 medpacks a week?

 

Because mods for non-mod making classes don't need to be re-added EVERY 90 SECONDS!!!

 

I think you're failing to understand entirely. You want lightsaber hilts to be consumable every 90 seconds? And ONLY Artifice players can have a permanent hilt? Fine.

 

That'd be functionally equivalent to the advantage that BioChem currently has.

 

Maybe your group needs a better healer? That seems like an awful lot of medpacs.

 

A better analogy than your 90 second one would be that only people who can make mods can remove them from gear intact (making them reusable). Everyone else must simply destroy them when they want to add a new one.

 

I still don't see what the issue is, medpacks are a consumable and as such will always be in demand. Static items like armor, mods, and weapons will only ever be profitable when a new tier of content first deploys, so yeah, lots of people are going to choose to take the consumable route for a steady stream of income. The fact that it also has a nice perk that saves some money for the player in question really doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

[Rehneu]

Purple reusable med packs lose their HoT. Whomever said they have a built in one is incorrect.

 

Now looking at what has changed and to give an example. ( I did not read through all of the postings within this thread so I apologize if this was already given)

 

Protoype Ultimate Medpack-Blue quality level 48

This grants 3750-4575 instant heal with an additional HoT of 1665 over 15 seconds.

All of the materials can be picked up via crew missions and crew vendor.

Cooldown is 90 seconds.

Single usage and can be tradable.

 

 

Rakata Medpack-Purple quality level 50 BoP

This now grants 3750-4575 instant heal as well as increases your maximum health by 15% for 15 seconds.

The materials to create this med pack are a combination of crew missions, crew vendor and hard mode flashpoint drops.

Cooldown is 90 seconds

Reusable

 

Now, what we have is what Bio-Ware believes is the equivalent in med packs since they said they were bringing these to be more in line with similar ones. They dropped the instant heal on the Rakata down from approximately (don't recall the exact number) 5k-6k down to what it is currently. This is a major decrease. I do not know if the rest of the pack remained the same in the sense of the increase in health.

 

Addressing the increase in health, if this works the same way as some other abilities in game, after the 15 seconds, you will drop the extra 15% health. To me, this has no real advantage. If you need to use the pack itself, I am seeing it as it only increasing said health while not really granting the extra heal. Just more so increasing your "bar" if you will. I of course can be very off on that assessment as I have yet to try it out. So please, I am sure some will, feel free to correct that.

 

Now, the difference between the HoT of the Prototype Ultimate Medpack and the Rakata increase in health will differ from player to player as the increase is player based. I will use my characters health as an example. My characters health is at 15073 of which 15% will equal 2260.95. This is only an increase of 595.95 over the HoT amount within the same given 15 second time frame.

 

Essentially they have, for the most part, brought the packs within similar ranges however, seeing as the levels are different, the higher level med packs through out Bio-Chem have always had an increase in base instant healing over their lower counter parts. This is no longer the case. The purple items of any type are usually also a superior as in comparison to any blue quality items found in game. This is no longer the case. Seeing as how there is also rare dropped materials needed for the Rakata as well as a very large cost to learn the schematic (approximately 20k), there is now absolutely no need for most to really utilize this med pack at all. The difference is very small.

 

In my opinion, their alignment of these packs was brought to far down. There still should have been a nice amount more over a lower level pack then there is currently after the patch.