Uluain Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Oh - and a little tooting my own horn, here. A ticket emailed to support@swtor.com on the subject of same-gender [Flirt] promts was answered today with every indication of a live person giving a thoughtful reply. The suggested resolution to assuring that the Dev Team was aware of this concern was that I make a thread in the Suggestion Box subforum of General Discussion. I would like to ask those interested in same-gender options for mission NPC conversational [Flirt] prompts to visit that thread and chime in. Edited February 4, 2012 by Uluain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechavomit Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 You've given no reasons and seem only out to incite a reaction, so I think I'll feel comfortable in disregarding your opinion. I was joking. Relax, don't take every little thing with agression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hmm. Those are game examples, right? I never played the KOTOR games but I gather they're from those games. Not sure who the two Mandalorian men come from. My only concern is that there are several 'levels' of Star Wars canon and many detractors will very readily say 'the computer games don't count'; I wonder if there are any examples in the novels. They are game examples, but they are still in a Star Wars product, whether they are canon matters not. Also, they are from post-RotJ novels and they are definitely a canon pairing as they are actually featured in the Complete Encyclopedia of Star Wars. Which is amusing since the 'Dark Jedi' that discovered them went to all the effort of using Sith Alchemy to breed with the original Sith species, from what I understand. Well technically, those Dark Jedi mixed with the Pureblood race simply because the Purebloods were so naturally strong in the Dark Side, they became the single most force sensitive race in the EU, they are literally beings of Dark Side energy. Take that and stick it with how much of a warrior people they were, and you get the Sith, the true Sith, they were a perfect race, the reason mixing with other races was frowned upon was because they didn't want their line diluted. Difference between them and obvious real world similarities is that the Sith actually had proof of their superior strength and connection to the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I was joking. Relax, don't take every little thing with agression. My apologies. I don't tend to assume everything's aggressive but I've seen enough aggression over this topic that it makes me a bit wary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 They are game examples, but they are still in a Star Wars product, whether they are canon matters not. Well... Technically if you're discussing the matter with people who're arguing that such relationships 'don't fit' the Star Wars universe, whether such examples are canon is of vital importance. Also, they are from post-RotJ novels and they are definitely a canon pairing as they are actually featured in the Complete Encyclopedia of Star Wars. And that's the big winner, of course. If there are canon examples of same sex relationships we can point at then it essentially silences that argument. Well technically, those Dark Jedi mixed with the Pureblood race simply because the Purebloods were so naturally strong in the Dark Side, they became the single most force sensitive race in the EU, they are literally beings of Dark Side energy. Take that and stick it with how much of a warrior people they were, and you get the Sith, the true Sith, they were a perfect race, the reason mixing with other races was frowned upon was because they didn't want their line diluted. Difference between them and obvious real world similarities is that the Sith actually had proof of their superior strength and connection to the force. <nods> I do get why. I just find it amusingly hypocritical that a species founded through interbreeding and alchemy frowns on interbreeding. As you say there was a very practical reason for them doing so, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photometrik Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 And that's the big winner, of course. If there are canon examples of same sex relationships we can point at then it essentially silences that argument. Grand Admiral Thrawn and Captain Pellaeon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechavomit Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 <nods> I do get why. I just find it amusingly hypocritical that a species founded through interbreeding and alchemy frowns on interbreeding. As you say there was a very practical reason for them doing so, but still. I don't think they frown on interbreeding with humans as much as they frown on interbreeding with alien species. A Sith having babies with a human is... acceptable, a twi'lek having babies with a human is something terrible. Makes the whole romance with Vette very unfitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well... Technically if you're discussing the matter with people who're arguing that such relationships 'don't fit' the Star Wars universe, whether such examples are canon is of vital importance. That is true, but then again, the simple fact they are in the game shows us that LucasArts does not believe homosexuality doesn't belong in star wars, and even if you don't attempt to get involved with Visas as the canonical Exile you still get very big hunches that she's absolutely crazy about you. And that's the big winner, of course. If there are canon examples of same sex relationships we can point at then it essentially silences that argument. Yeah, they aren't even acknowledged as homosexuals, just two men in a relationship, so there are romances between the same gender in Star Wars, because either the galaxy moved on from seeing it as different, or never saw it as different in the first place. <nods> I do get why. I just find it amusingly hypocritical that a species founded through interbreeding and alchemy frowns on interbreeding. As you say there was a very practical reason for them doing so, but still. It is quite ironic, although the Sith themselves are one big irony in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't think they frown on interbreeding with humans as much as they frown on interbreeding with alien species. A Sith having babies with a human is... acceptable, a twi'lek having babies with a human is something terrible. Makes the whole romance with Vette very unfitting. Actually the Sith purebloods still consider Humans inferior, the major difference here is that if said human has strong Sith blood running through them, they are considered almost equal, but regular humans are only just better than Aliens are. Oh and Twi-Leks can't have children with anyone but another Twi-lek, as far as we have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Grand Admiral Thrawn and Captain Pellaeon. Wait, is that a joke or is this actually true? if so do you have link to the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't think they frown on interbreeding with humans as much as they frown on interbreeding with alien species. A Sith having babies with a human is... acceptable, a twi'lek having babies with a human is something terrible. Makes the whole romance with Vette very unfitting. See, maybe it's just contrary of me but I'm tempted to pursue that particular relationship just to annoy some Sith. >.> Some pixellated, digital Sith. Shallow of me? Probably. That is true, but then again, the simple fact they are in the game shows us that LucasArts does not believe homosexuality doesn't belong in star wars, and even if you don't attempt to get involved with Visas as the canonical Exile you still get very big hunches that she's absolutely crazy about you. Very good point. They likely retain right of veto over game content so if they allowed it then it must hold SOME weight, yes. Yeah, they aren't even acknowledged as homosexuals, just two men in a relationship, so there are romances between the same gender in Star Wars, because either the galaxy moved on from seeing it as different, or never saw it as different in the first place. Okay, see, this is a really interesting point. Now, the galaxy is a big place with all kinds of species, civilisations, cultures and subcultures. Overarching that are larger 'metacultures', I suppose you could call them, like the Galactic Republic. I've no doubt at all that in some places of the galaxy same-sex relationships are seen as horrid abominations, and that there are some species that are actually biologically incapable of understanding the concept. With several billion stars and an unknown number of inhabited worlds that sort of thing is just mathematically going to happen. But on the same note it'd be ridiculous to think that there aren't cultures that are entirely equal, species that are naturally inclined toward same sex relationships, civilisations where heterosexuality is only used to continue the species and most sex happens between same-sex couples. Just as there would be cultures in which polyamory is the norm, species that produce asexually so it's not even an issue, hermaphrodites and so on and so forth. I dunno. Maybe I'm rambling but I think it's a huge galaxy. There's room for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uluain Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Oh and Twi-Leks can't have children with anyone but another Twi-lek, as far as we have seen. Also, partners of the same gender aren't going to be making out-bred babies anyway - at least without some serious Sith sorcery. Then again, the Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural. Back on topic: This is not a discussion of whether this content ought to be included. That decision has been made, and same-gender companion romances will be included. This thread is to ask the Dev Team for clarification of how, and when, and where they actually are in making that happen, while also discussing ways we might like to see it included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechavomit Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Oh and Twi-Leks can't have children with anyone but another Twi-lek, as far as we have seen. There was a clone trooper during the clone wars that deserted and had a wife and kids. All twi'leks. However, it was never stated that he was their biological father, even though they looked relatively "halfblood". Yes, sorry, no more off-topic Edited February 4, 2012 by Mechavomit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Oh and Twi-Leks can't have children with anyone but another Twi-lek, as far as we have seen. It's canon that twi'leks can have children with humans, actually. There are some half-twi'lek children in the Clone Wars series. They're mentioned as half-twi'lek in the Clone Wars Encyclopaedia as well. Edited February 4, 2012 by Kioma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) It's canon that twi'leks can have children with humans, actually. There are some half-twi'lek children in the Clone Wars series. They're mentioned as half-twi'lek in the Clone Wars Encyclopaedia as well. Really? because Vette flat out states in SWTOR when you romance her that Twi-Leks and Humans can't interbreed, it's biologically impossible. EDIT:Sorry, I'll stay on topic. Edited February 4, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zandilar Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Really? because Vette flat out states in SWTOR when you romance her that Twi-Leks and Humans can't interbreed, it's biologically impossible. I'd think that it might be possible to have used science to overcome that. Considering that the Clone Wars saga is a good long time after TOR. It is also possible for "canon" to contradict itself. Especially given that the Star Wars universe has different layers of Canon. Top of the tree are the original three movies (and presumably their prequels)... That's the Canon Canon. The next layer of canon (the Expanded Universe) is presumably books, animated series, comics, and games (ie: everything else)... All of which are only tenuously canon, as George Lucas has a great big VETO button for this layer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 This thread is to ask the Dev Team for clarification of how, and when, and where they actually are in making that happen, while also discussing ways we might like to see it included. True! And this is part of how I'd like to see it. Not just as companion options but as background flavour - introducing the concepts into cultures and actually hinting that on Nar Shaddaa nobody cares as long as you're pretty and have money, or that the Voss (an entirely Bioware invention anyway) form any kind of bonds their Mystics tell them they should, or that on Planet J it's seen as 'weird' to be dating someone of a different species - even a similar one, and irrespective of their gender. Of course unless it's fairly background there'd be a lot of socio-political noise but still. If nothing else I'd like to see a few obviously same-sex NPC couples in the game. They don't need to snog or anything but having them there would be a delightful touch. Of the companion characters we get, I see some sense in letting the companions' sexualities be guided by player choice. It gives people the widest variety of options, means nobody needs to miss out or roll X class to get a FF relationship and Y class to get MM, and when all's said and done what happens on your ship stays on your ship. No other players have ANY way of finding out whether your Bounty Hunter is doing Mako or Whatsisname. It's not like you get a title like <playername>, Mako's Girlfriend. However I also realise that people have a point in stating that making a character's sexuality malleable also makes them... generic, in a way. In this I'd state that the player CAN actually decide that, say, Mako is straight just by never flirting with her on your Girly Hunter. I'd also point out that whilst it's a point that a malleable sexuality makes for a generic state that the player then defines, so is their Affection rating. It starts at 0 and could go up or down. The player decides which. And anyway, the player's the main character, right? Surely there should be more options opened up for the player. So to sum up whilst I see the benefit of characters that are DEFINITELY of X Orientation and won't waver from it, I don't think it outweighs the benefit of having bisexual potential in all of the available relationship-capable companions. Especially since not all of your characters are relationship-capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Really? because Vette flat out states in SWTOR when you romance her that Twi-Leks and Humans can't interbreed, it's biologically impossible. EDIT:Sorry, I'll stay on topic. Well, she's lying or mistaken, then. Or, more likely, the story team made an assumption and didn't check for precedent. Edit: To be fair, this is a very easy thing to do when you're writing within another's universe. And as every single writer adds their own spin it just gets more confusing, not less. Edited February 4, 2012 by Kioma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Another interesting approach might be making companions who aren't currently romanceable, romanceable by the same gender - explaining that they simply weren't interested in the PC of the same gender. While this wouldn't work for *every* class, it could certainly add: Sith Warrior: Jaesa Wilsaam (Light side), Lieutenant Pierce (as a fully fledged romance) Sith Inquisitor: Talos Drellik Imperial Agent: Uh... Bounty Hunter: Gault Jedi Knight: Sergeant Rusk, *maybe* Lord Scourge Jedi Consular: Tharan Cedrex, Zenith Trooper: Tanno Vik Smuggler: Uh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Another interesting approach might be making companions who aren't currently romanceable, romanceable by the same gender - explaining that they simply weren't interested in the PC of the same gender. While this wouldn't work for *every* class, it could certainly add: <snip> The Smuggler could land Bowdarr, but they'd need to change the class name to the Snuggler. It's an interesting idea. Personally I don't really think it'd work, not only for the 'uhh' classes you've noted above but also because a lot of players are already attached to companions that CAN be romanced, just not by their specific character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechavomit Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The Smuggler could land Bowdarr, but they'd need to change the class name to the Snuggler. While we're at it, the devs could make some of the alien companions romancable too. I'm completely serious. Let me try and romance Xalek. No matter the consequences, the Sith can frown all they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baytree Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Another interesting approach might be making companions who aren't currently romanceable, romanceable by the same gender - explaining that they simply weren't interested in the PC of the same gender. Smuggler: Uh... I've wondered about that. It would be a way of adding romance companions without having to create new companions. If they're not going to make all the romance options bi then it would make sense to need to add in extra romance characters for some of the classes. So, some of the existing romances options would become available for SGRA and then you'd have 'new' romance options for the other classes. Could just be wishful thinking though. I am seriously holding out for Talos Drellik. I find him FAR more appealing than Andronikos. Grand Admiral Thrawn and Captain Pellaeon. I am so glad to know I'm not the only one who went there with those two. It's not cannon as far as I know but rereading the series as an adult sure gives you a different perspective. Edited February 4, 2012 by Baytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusedMoose Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Also, partners of the same gender aren't going to be making out-bred babies anyway - at least without some serious Sith sorcery. Then again, the Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural. Wow, a well-timed and appropriate SW quote... from one of the prequels. I didn't think that was possible. Just wanted to further encourage people to post their questions about SGRs over in the Q&A thread. I've done it, if this is important to you, you should too. Who knows? By this time next week, we might have an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 That is a remarkably generous - and ingenious - concession to have an item unlock same-gender romance options, but I find it unsatisfactory on two counts. One, it is not equitable that opposite gender flirt options should be visible by default, while same gender flirt options would need unlocking so that some people would not need to see them. I see options that I don't care to follow through on all the time. And seeing those, but not ones which would interest me, is in fact dispiriting. I personally feel the reminder that others feel differently is no great burden to place on those uninterested in same-gender romantic options, particularly as options they would prefer are also available. Second, I ought not to have to spend credits to buy an item to unlock options which others enjoy by default. I feel the option for flirts should itself be gender-blind. Any NPC offering an option to [Flirt] should offer it to all characters. I imagine we have not seen any kind of clarification as to when these options will be implemented because Bioware doesn't have that answer to offer yet. There is doubtless a large number of bug fixes to be implemented first, and any amount of new content waiting in the wings. It may depend on when they are done putting out fires. But how they intend to do it ought to be easier to answer, if they are putting in any work on it at all. They must have a game plan. If they don't, then I personally am not sanguine about the likelihood of it being implemented any time soon, which is a shame. Obviously same-gender romance is x-rated no matter how innocent the options or dialogue is, hence the reason why the game is rated T and will stay that way for a very long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Obviously same-gender romance is x-rated no matter how innocent the options or dialogue is, hence the reason why the game is rated T and will stay that way for a very long time I sincerely hope that was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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