Are you blind Bioware? Tanks!

[Tewnam]

The original poster seems to be a Powertech. They don't get any bonuses to internal or elemental damage and their barrier ("Energy Shield" is the name) is on a 2min cooldown.

 

Actually Powertechs do get bonuses to internal/elemental at slightly less than the other tanks, but only 1% less than Juggernauts and 2% less than Assassins. We get it from two talents that reduce all damage, so it doesn't explicitly state internal/elemental.

[grandmasterub]

There Is so much mad in this thread its lulz.

 

Apparently someone missed the fact that you don't tank in pvp... You support... Its not like pve.

 

Also I thought I read somewhere that shielding is supposed to work on all damage types but is currently broken In pvp, to be patched. I could be wrong though

[Scritchy]

Actually Powertechs do get bonuses to internal/elemental at slightly less than the other tanks, but only 1% less than Juggernauts and 2% less than Assassins. We get it from two talents that reduce all damage, so it doesn't explicitly state internal/elemental.

 

There is damage reduction by 2% with Ion Screen and all damage reduced by 2% with Power Armor. Where is the other 1%?

[Tewnam]

There is damage reduction by 2% with Ion Screen and all damage reduced by 2% with Power Armor. Where is the other 1%?

 

That's it.

 

From the stickied Primer:

 

Resistance: Elemental/Internal DR

 

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Elemental/Internal DR does NOT factor in Armor. So after subtracting Armor and adding passive Elemental/Internal bonuses we get the following:

SI: (Sith Defiance 2%) + (Charge Mastery 9%) = 11%

 

SW: (Stance 6%) + (Dark Blood 4%) = 10%

 

BH: (Stance 5%) + (Ion Shield 2%) + (Power Armor 2%) = 9%

[Batslav]

Maybe you should start using your CDs in PvP.

 

 

u mean cds that doesnt matter if ur tank or not coz other specs can use too ?

 

btw i dont have cds i have only one lol

Edited January 17, 2012 by Batslav

[Chomag]

How do you "taunt" in PVP?

 

You do

 

/say You suck noob!

/lol

 

Instant hatred. Well either this or cast any healing spell at other players.

[VegaPhone]

There was a discussion earlier about claims on how juggernauts can do a lot of dps with crushing blow, and sunder to increase dps, as immortal spec, ofc. However the claims was also that the dmg was 5k per hit and not just an increase of overall dps.

 

I experimented with the build, and I have added crushing blow. I have generated more dps over time but my crits are the same.

 

So I can only have 3 conclusions based on the fact people are making these claims of high dps juggernuat with immortal spec.

 

1. They have dps gear for thier immortal spec which I do not have.... and this introduces another problem about classes and their roles if actual tank gear is not useful to serve a role, since tank gear does not make a person that much less squishy compared to heavy armor dps gear. So everyone should just get heavy armor dps gear.

 

2. They are wrong, and made a mistake.

 

3. There are some other special circumstances that are not mentioned to explain for this phenomena. This opens a big quesiton mark, however I have played the immortal spec by adding crushing blow, knowing it wont make a difference on my per hit dps.

 

However I would also like to add that crushing blow is suppose to add extra dmg, when there is already 5 stacks of armor. For some reason ever since I was in beta, i have never seen that bonus dmg.

 

That might be the reason why my dmg is low, due to a bug. But, it seems strange that the bug was consistent to several different installs and patches. So that could be a reason for low dps per hit.

 

Until then, this claim for 5k dmg per hit seems implausible.

 

Also I would like to reiterate the flaw of having a Jug Immortal spec tank wearing dps gear since that means the tank is not a tank due to playing a full tank role being nullified, and better compromised with dps gear instead.

 

I do have full tank gear, and I do not have much dps. I have around 19k hp. And I am barely less squishy than other squishies at times, but I certainly do a lot less dmg than other classes.

 

In conclusion what I want to know: Why does the extra dmg from crushing blow when there is 5 stacks of armor reduction built up on a target not show up? That is an important question for me to get answered.

 

edit: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_warrior/juggernaut/

 

Thats the spec tree for Jugg. Immortal is seen here. Also i woiuld like to add on my computer those numbers are already different. Crushing blow says it does 1.3-1.5 k dmg with an additional x amount of dmg which is around 1.6-1.8k as well for the building 5 stacks of armor reduction.

 

And the difference is as shown on DH is 3-3.6 with an additional 1.7-2k dmg. Big freaking difference.

 

So how come I am playing on a client that says something different?

 

I am not sure if Dh put those numbers as place holder or those are the dmg numbers you are all generally seeing when actually playing the game, but for me it is different.

Edited January 18, 2012 by VegaPhone

[matthewcreech]

That's it.

 

From the stickied Primer:

 

Resistance: Elemental/Internal DR

 

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Elemental/Internal DR does NOT factor in Armor. So after subtracting Armor and adding passive Elemental/Internal bonuses we get the following:

SI: (Sith Defiance 2%) + (Charge Mastery 9%) = 11%

 

SW: (Stance 6%) + (Dark Blood 4%) = 10%

 

BH: (Stance 5%) + (Ion Shield 2%) + (Power Armor 2%) = 9%

 

It is worth noting that Mark of Power, the Sith Inquisitor 1hr Buff grants 10% internal and elemental damage reduction.

Ideally every tank will have this buff on them, but SI has it by default.

Making the above values:

SI 21% SW 20% BH 19%

[Zaaxinator]

So i read the first 9 pages of this thread, so if this was already stated on pages 10-14 I'm sorry.

 

There are 2 things i think didn't get said:

1) PTs and Jugs don't tank the same, example, PTs (round numbers for example sake) usually have 10% def 40% shield, while jugs have 40% def and 10% shield. that's the big difference. 40% of PT tanking is a shield that cant proc off 2/4 damage types, those procs in turn proc other skills that remove cool downs and such. so i think the big complaint here is people aren't getting their free rocket punches. Also, you can't dodge or shield internal and elemental damage.

 

2) at 50 with max expertise i would assume that it is harder to kill a person with say 50% resistance to all damage and 20k health, then a person with 50% resistance to all damage and 14k health. I have not however seen any numbers on expertise.

 

also as a disclaimer, i am not trying to attack anyone or make fun of anyone or cut anyone down. this is my opinion.

[wallywaffles]

Food for thought.

 

1. When's the last time you saw a healer/dps with 18k HP? Have you seriously ever tried to kill a sorceror? They are ridiculously squishy after their shield is down.

 

2. Have you ever talked to a marauder/sniper/assassin? I'm sure they will assure you that you are indeed quite frakking hard to kill.

 

3. Do you actually have PvP gear? I can hold off 3 enemies for about 30 seconds using my defensive cooldowns; plenty of time for my teammates to rush over and finish them off.

 

Making shields work like they do in PvE would make tanks ridiculously OP. No one would ever cap a turret, no one would ever cap a door, and whoever got the ball first would win in Huttball unless the players are totally inept. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but as a tank I definitely last (significantly) longer than my brothers who play DPS and healer and that doesn't need to be extended.

[Windkull]

The problem with your numbers is that PTs actually usually have the highest armor while Juggs have just below them and high defense but low shield. Assassins are the ones getting the shaft in PVP with 10% lower armor, but 10% higher shield. However assassins have self heal and aoe debuffs so it makes up for some of it. Also spell immunity in a scrum in pvp is probably more mitigation than either of the others get.

[Nugeneration]

I would like to see one of two things happen with the "tank" pvp sets.

 

A) They allow more attacks to be affect by +def/+shield

If to many people think that would break the class balance issue then I would settle for option b

 

B) Remove all +def/+shield stats off our tank gear and change them to crit/power/surge accordingly. That way I at least have a useful set of gear to wear other than this current crapshoot set where +def/+shield stats don't seem to make a bit of difference currently. It will still differ from the dps set, due to the dps set stacking more str where ours would still have more end.

[Yfelsung]

I would like to see one of two things happen with the "tank" pvp sets.

 

A) They allow more attacks to be affect by +def/+shield

If to many people think that would break the class balance issue then I would settle for option b

 

B) Remove all +def/+shield stats off our tank gear and change them to crit/power/surge accordingly. That way I at least have a useful set of gear to wear other than this current crapshoot set where +def/+shield stats don't seem to make a bit of difference currently. It will still differ from the dps set, due to the dps set stacking more str where ours would still have more end.

 

Um, I'd like them to keep the tank PvP set exactly as it is, I use it to great effectiveness.

 

They can add a new set for you, but don't remove the set I use because you're not using it right.

[Zaaxinator]

The problem with your numbers is that PTs actually usually have the highest armor while Juggs have just below them and high defense but low shield. Assassins are the ones getting the shaft in PVP with 10% lower armor, but 10% higher shield. However assassins have self heal and aoe debuffs so it makes up for some of it. Also spell immunity in a scrum in pvp is probably more mitigation than either of the others get.

 

armor dosn't effect resistance to internal/elemental

[Nugeneration]

Um, I'd like them to keep the tank PvP set exactly as it is, I use it to great effectiveness.

 

They can add a new set for you, but don't remove the set I use because you're not using it right.

 

Do tell how all those defensive stats help you so much please?

 

You understand they pretty much only help vs snipers/juggs/mara's right?

 

Any attack that pretty much isn't basic range/weapon damage 100% bypasses them right?

Edited January 18, 2012 by Nugeneration

[Yfelsung]

Do tell how all those defensive stats help you so much please?

 

You understand they pretty much only help vs snipers/juggs/mara's right?

 

Any attack that pretty much isn't basic range/weapon damage 100% bypasses them right?

 

They help me a lot because the majority of players I fight are not classes that rely on elemental or internal damage.

 

Most classes I face are blaster and LS users, who my defensive stats work marvelously against.

 

Do you know how nice it is to deflect a Sniper's Ambush? and, being a Sniper is my other class, how much it sucks to have my biggest damage ability simply deflected? That an ability that can crit for nearly 4k simply negated.

 

Sorc/Consulars and Lethality Ops are not the majority of what I end up fighting.

 

When I do fight them, then the healer I have guarded makes up for my lack of defenses against them by keeping my health up.

 

Remember, it's not my job to kill the Sorc, it's my job to prevent the Sorc from killing my squishy, then it's my squishy's job to kill the thing or keep me up while I slowly kill it.

 

As a tank, the "Protection" stat is all that should matter to you at the end of a game.

[Nugeneration]

 

Most classes I face are blaster and LS users

 

Ok so they don't use any tech/force powers against you right? I'm all for worrying about guarding and protecting my guild premade healer as much as the next tank...but if I could do it just the same with a DPS increase and no loss to survivability (except vs snipers/maras/other tanks (Force sweep spec mara/jugs don't count as their abilities bypass all your defenses too). Then I'd take the other stats at least they will contribute to something.

[Yfelsung]

Ok so they don't use any tech/force powers against you right? I'm all for worrying about guarding and protecting my guild premade healer as much as the next tank...but if I could do it just the same with a DPS increase and no loss to survivability (except vs snipers/maras/other tanks (Force sweep spec mara/jugs don't count as their abilities bypass all your defenses too). Then I'd take the other stats at least they will contribute to something.

 

They use SOME tech and force powers, but many of their abilities are also blaster and LS based.

 

So I may not defend the force/tech stuff, but I defend most of the blaster and LS based attacks, which make a significant amount of their DPS.

 

Take the Rage spec Mara/Jugg. Sure, I can't stop Smash, or Force Crush, but he can't stack sunders on me, he can't get ravage on me, he can barely build rage against me.

 

So sure, once every 9+ seconds I get nailed with a big Smash, but for the other 8~ seconds I laughed my way through their pitiful attacks.

 

And what is that DPS increase getting you?

 

Do you know what you should do once you've gotten a guy off your healer? Ignore him, he's not on your healer, let him run off and do whatever as someone else is going to be on your healer in any minute.

 

If you get out of defense range of your healer, you just messed up.

 

And now, you have all that awesome DPS, and some Sniper drops you to 1/3 your health in one rotation.

 

I am a tank, a damage sponge, even a small increase to my ability to deflect damage of some classes is worth more to me than any DPS increase.

 

Killing isn't my job on my Juggernaut.

[Nugeneration]

They use SOME tech and force powers, but many of their abilities are also blaster and LS based.

 

So I may not defend the force/tech stuff, but I defend most of the blaster and LS based attacks, which make a significant amount of their DPS.

 

Take the Rage spec Mara/Jugg. Sure, I can't stop Smash, or Force Crush, but he can't stack sunders on me, he can't get ravage on me, he can barely build rage against me.

 

So sure, once every 9+ seconds I get nailed with a big Smash, but for the other 8~ seconds I laughed my way through their pitiful attacks.

 

And what is that DPS increase getting you?

 

Do you know what you should do once you've gotten a guy off your healer? Ignore him, he's not on your healer, let him run off and do whatever as someone else is going to be on your healer in any minute.

 

If you get out of defense range of your healer, you just messed up.

 

And now, you have all that awesome DPS, and some Sniper drops you to 1/3 your health in one rotation.

 

I am a tank, a damage sponge, even a small increase to my ability to deflect damage of some classes is worth more to me than any DPS increase.

 

Killing isn't my job on my Juggernaut.

 

No basic LS attacks/blasters are not the main damage source for any dps aside from snipers/gunslingers which they should be complaining about this issue as well as mara's for certain abilities (mainly ravage). Not fair for them to be the only 2 classes at a disadvantage vs tank geared players when NO other dpsers are.

 

They can still build sunders. They already have 20%armor pen, and saber throw still adds stacks.

[Yfelsung]

No basic LS attacks/blasters are not the main damage source for any dps aside from snipers/gunslingers which they should be complaining about this issue as well as mara's for certain abilities (mainly ravage). Not fair for them to be the only 2 classes at a disadvantage vs tank geared players when NO other dpsers are.

 

They can still build sunders. They already have 20%armor pen, and saber throw still adds stacks.

 

Did I say basic LS/blaster attacks? No, I'm talking about their SPECIAL BLASTER AND LS ATTACKS. I can deflect those and they make up a significant amount of most classes DPS.

 

A rage specced Marauder isn't ALL FORCE ALL THE TIME, they have a significant amount of LS based special attacks that I can negate.

 

Yeah, they can build sunders, but so far they have to try 3 before 1 hits. Considering there's a 3.5 second cooldown on Sunder, it means I got time.

 

And remember, again, my job isn't to kill them, it's to hold them off my healer so that an actual damage class can come over to kill them.

 

As I said, I'm PvPing in full prot gear and doing fine. Top protection every game, low deaths, my healer stays up and gets top healing.

 

I'm a tank, I'm a support class, my damage output is pitiful, but I don't need damage to do my job.

 

Hell, I'd prefer they don't target me, because if I taunt them while guarding their target, I'm cutting their damage by 35% while soaking some of the remaining 65% with my guard. It's a lot easier for a healer to heal 65% of the damage being done to him instead of all the damage being done to me.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Yfelsung

[Nugeneration]

Did I say basic LS/blaster attacks? No, I'm talking about their SPECIAL BLASTER AND LS ATTACKS. I can deflect those and they make up a significant amount of most classes DPS.

 

List me a hard hitting ability used in a rotation vs a tank that is based off weapon damage. Seeing as how the other attacks can't be defended against. You can't use sniper/mara as I have done said they should be complaining about this issue as well. Every other class doesn't use them in a fight vs a tank. At least not enough that even remotely gives +defensive stats any real value.

[Irenicus_Jon]

Yes, please give tanks abilities to resist/avoid internal damage so my only means of denting them (and mostly the reason I specced lethality) is completely useless. Because I love having a snipe dodged/deflected or crit for 500 damage, is so much fun.

[Shedomon]

As I said' date=' I'm PvPing in full prot gear and doing fine. Top protection every game, low deaths, my healer stays up and gets top healing.[/quote']

 

The majority of your survivability comes from your pocket healer. So, what about us that don't have pocket healers? We run around using our taunts and throw guard on people, but our survivability actually gets worse b/c of it, we might not get any heals and now we are taking 50% of their damage as well. They might stay up longer, but I get focused and die quickly and with doing little dps. Why? Because I have no pocket healer and our survivability sucks against 5 of the 8 classes.

 

I've read all your posts on this thread. Your attitude is of someone that runs with a premade. I don't have a premade. So my class shouldn't be efficient without a pocket healer? Our mitigation should actually matter. I want to actually survive noticeably longer then the dps classes do without heals, but I don't. There are problems with it because of the large assortment of abilities that completely ignore mitigation. But your doing well with your healer so what is said on this thread falls on closed ears and that's the same for most close-minded people with a pocket healer.

 

As I said' date=' I'm PvPing in full prot gear and doing fine. Top protection every game, low deaths, my healer stays up and gets top healing.[/quote']

[Pokupo]

Ok I have a Level 28 BH:PT in full PvE Shield Spec, as well as a Level 23 SW:Jugger Shield/Vengence Spec for what it is worth.

 

Now I am not how you measure your self in a Warzone for how well you do. I mean ultimately I would say it is wether your team wins or loses? I usually go by how many medals I accumulate myself for personal performance.

 

I normally go solo into a WZ and the majority of the time I would say that I have gotten 6~8 medals per match, the highest being 9 (Solo), 10 with a Healer. And I would say my gear isn't that great.

 

I am not really sure how you can say your class sucks when you can pretty much get into the top three in every column besides Healing of course in every WZ you play in. And yes you will die if you dont have heals, but your a Tank and that is what Tanks get paid to do. And the only times that I truly feel like I am squishy is when I am getting focussed on by 4~6 guys by myself, but then for every second I live, that is another second my team is not getting hit.

[CygnisJunior]

List me a hard hitting ability used in a rotation vs a tank that is based off weapon damage. Seeing as how the other attacks can't be defended against. You can't use sniper/mara as I have done said they should be complaining about this issue as well. Every other class doesn't use them in a fight vs a tank. At least not enough that even remotely gives +defensive stats any real value.

 

I don't believe anyone can...

 

Also, Guard and Taunt are available even if you're not in tank gear to stop people from bursting down your healer. And its not like you can shield/parry the damage from Guard...

 

I would much rather play with offensive gear/spec so I could actually KILL the things on my healer, rather than, you know, not.