5 Reasons Why Group Finder Tool is Needed.

[Frostbird]

Yeah, it's this again, but just thought I would give my 20yen on the subject. Had a long chat on /1 last night with a few people while companions were doing their thing and was quite surprised at what came out.

 

Warning! This is likely going to be TL/DR. Will summarize at end.

 

I will try to go about this post a little differently however. Rather than saying exactly why a Finder is a good thing, I will put forward the 5 most common arguments against it and see if I can debunk them a little.

 

1) Manual Group Making Is Good For Server Community.

 

The one I hear the most. Basically "if you force playes to manually search out other players to group with, they are more likely to interact and form lasting ties". Sounds good I guess...but in reality it doesn't happen.

 

In games without Finders, putting together a pug goes like this:

- Spend 10-40 minutes spamming channels looking for people during which time you can't do anything else really.

- Spend 5 minutes sorting out roles and loot rules.

- Spend 10-20 minutes getting everyone to the instance entrance.

- Spend 30 minutes doing the instance.

 

In games with Finders, it's basically.

- Spend 5 minutes in queue. You can do dailies etc. while in queue.

- Spend 30 minutes doing the instance.

 

I've been pretty good about doing every bit of group content in this game as I've levelled, ditto other MMOs. I've been lucky thus far because lots of people are levelling. In a few months there won't be.

 

In manual groups, you know what a run is like? 2/4/5/8/16 people shlepping through the instance, whether it's a server group or not. People are polite enough usually, but any attempt at being 'social' is generally met with what amounts to 'shut up and tank/heal/dps'.

Reason being - people want to get content done. If they want to socialize, they can join a guild, chat over /w or speak on a channel.

 

Server community is a myth. If you *really* want to stimulate it, add incentives to grouping from people wth your realm - guild rewards, social points etc. Add invasions and events that encourage pugging. Keep top tier content guild exclusive and make sure there is enough of it.

 

But to lock all group content away behind this 'spam channel for an hour or get a guild' door is going to bite you hard in a few months when new/leveling players have no one to do it with.

 

2) Manual Group Making Stops Griefers and Ninjas.

 

Because the 'server community' will blacklist them, right? Wrong. No one cares. They didn't care in WoW or other games either, aside from those with small, generally mature communities (DCUO, LOTRO, DNDO). In the last 2 weeks I've had a fair few people simply follow the group without doing anything much (dual boxers? bots?). I've had griefers and people who /need on everything. I've had obnoxious 'don't effing tell me how to play or I'll track you down brah' types trying to tank on Agents.

 

I've told the 'community' in /1. I was told to go back to Republic. I was told to QQ more. I was even spammed flames by the guy I 'reported' and his guild, and then accused by the guild of being a ninja over /1 as payback.

 

Jerks will be jerks and a self policing playerbase does not exist in a game this big. You get rid of problem elements with /ignore, moderation and systems that stop them from being jerks. 'Self Policing Community' is too open to abuse and apathy.

 

3) Additional Overhead Keeps Casuals Out.

 

As if 'Casualism" was some evil political movement that must be stamped out AT ALL COSTS. The basic argument going something along the lines of "if you make everything inconvinient and obtuse, then only players who are *really* dedicated will bother" and so "if you make anything more convinient it will attract bad and lazy players".

 

I've done the hardcore thing back in BC/Wrath. You know what I wanted to do between raids? Spend the maximum amount of time *playing* the game and not faffing around with overhead.

 

I'm pretty casual now. You know what I want to do when I get home from work? Spend the maximum amount of time *playing* the game and not faffing around with overhead.

 

All you do by not including a Finder is force people to spam channels to find a group, in which case it depends on RNG, server population and what class they rolled. Once the game has been out for a while, it also effectively shuts out new players from non current content, especially on less populated servers.

 

Or of course, see below.

 

4) Manual Group Making Makes People Join Guilds.

 

The good old "get a guild" argument. Argh.

 

In my 8 years of playing MMOs some of my best memories are of guilds. However, some of my very worst memories are of guilds too.

 

A guild is (well should be) a group of people who choose to make an organized social group based on some shared goal. Whether this is some special interest, endgame content, organized pvp or just levelling, they usually work fine.

 

When they *don't* work is when people are essentially forced to join them (see Trade Unions). You get guilds abusing power. You get people burning out on the game due to not liking the guild they are in, but not feeling like they can quit or play without it.

 

When you force someone to do something they don't want to do, especially if that involves interaction with others, you create problems.

 

For example, back in BC I joined a guild to do leveling content, basically because everyone on the forums was shouting "get a guild!". It was...okay, some very obnoxious people, but I told myself "you need a guild, just deal with it".

 

There was also a small raid group that was just starting to run Kara to gear up. I was interested in raiding, and eventually, after 2 weeks of max level I was one of the tanks.

 

However said guild ran at a time that became increasingly troublesome for me. After another week I announced that I was applying at another guild. I was met with abuse, threats, a gkick and a spiteful email send to the leader of the other guild that I was a bank ninja.

 

The point being, guilds are a good thing as long as they are optional. Making them mandatory to effectively do group content (aside from the extremely hard top tier content) turns them into a bad thing.

 

5) Finders Empty The World.

 

Because everyone sits in a city in queues, right?

 

Well, is this really so different to 'everyone spends 20 minutes making a beeline for instance entrance x'? Again, all this does is add overhead and wastes time. The leveling world will empty out.

 

In fact, with things as they are, if you want to get a group for endgame content you damn well won't be out in the world anyway. Why? Because the groups are formed in the main hubs.

 

TL/DR.

 

Server community is built by incentives for pugging and moderation of problem elements. A Finder is a very important tool in keeping an MMO accessible and enjoyable by the widest spectrum of players. All it's removal does is add an extra level of overhead and RNG to experiencing group conent, and telling people 'get a guild' turns guilds into a tool/chore/union rather than a voluntary shared social experience.

 

If you want to give rewards for manual groupmaking and same-server cooperation, go nuts. Expand your Social Points system and don't let the Finder reward it. Keep top tier content away from Finders too, if you want.

 

But for leveling group content and the 'gearing phase' of endgame, they are something that will be drastically needed in a few months.

 

Thanks for reading.

- The Bird

Edited January 17, 2012 by Frostbird

[Frostbird]

<deleted> Edited January 17, 2012 by Frostbird
freaking work computer

[Frostbird]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...180349&page=57

 

This thread, especially in a later stages is a wonderful example of how ineffective 'server community' is at self moderation.

 

Basically "I will continue to ninja, grief, exploit and lol at you. My guild is big and thus I am invulnerable".

[Elysion]

Why is it you assume the only options are lfg spam and full on autogroupers?

 

Something like DDO had is ideal.

[Frostbird]

Why is it you assume the only options are lfg spam and full on autogroupers?

 

Something like DDO had is ideal.

 

Care to elaborate? I played DnDO but almost totally with a small crew of RL friends and not for long.

 

I never said that lfg spam and autogroupers are the only option. I am just trying to say that for leveling/gearing content, especially once the glut of leveling people start to hit max level, would really benefit from autogroupers and that most of the objections to these don't hold water.

[Sai-to]

Even BW has admitted they can improve the LFG function they have.

 

The issue isn't that the LFG tool shouldn't be improved... it's that people don't want the *****y WoW monstrosity that's called LFD... even it you take away cross faction.

 

 

The following LFG improvements would make everything great:

 

-Group leader creates a Party listing.

In the party listing, leader can designate what roles he wants and how many of each. He can also select what the party is for and create comments about any loot rules, more specifics, etc.

 

-Person LFG can:

 

A) create "LFG listing"

B) Manually search party listings

 

If you create an LFG listing, you list the roles you're willing to play and list of content you'd like. If a party listing exists that's a match, then it pops up.

 

-Now, from this point, you "apply" to the party with any comments you want.

The group leader gets the application as a popup, and can click a button to invite you to group.

 

This type of LFG tool has the benefits of convenience, without the negatives to the social and communicative aspects of the game.

[Saeria]

I read your post and it reads like an essay on exactly why such a tool isn't needed.

[Arikard]

They need to do something, my only real complaint about the game, is the fact that you have to spam chat to get in a group. There was nothing wrong with the way WoW handled the dungeon finder, it was fast effective, and worked across several servers to ensure you always got a group.

[Baaddare]

Why is it you assume the only options are lfg spam and full on autogroupers?

 

Something like DDO had is ideal.

 

well i liekd COH/COV system

 

You could flag yourself as if mission even in which zones ( quests), trials even which trials ( closest would be FP, Ops) and such plus have a comment

 

Then people forming groups could filter by classes and roles and what type of trials or mission they were trying to fill and then hit search and they would be a list and could pm those people or do a blind invite. All of which was server wide

Edited January 17, 2012 by Baaddare

[Elysion]

Care to elaborate? I played DnDO but almost totally with a small crew of RL friends and not for long.

 

I never said that lfg spam and autogroupers are the only option. I am just trying to say that for leveling/gearing content, especially once the glut of leveling people start to hit max level, would really benefit from autogroupers and that most of the objections to these don't hold water.

 

in DDO it basically worked like this.

There was the lfg/lfm interface, that you could use both ways.

 

For the LFG part it was fairly straightforward, you flagged yourself lfg, could select what you were lfg for from dropdowns, and add comments

 

But a more important aspect, was the LFM part.

 

A group leader could flag themselves as LFM. Use the same flags to select what they were planning on running, and also could select flags for the classes they were in need of. Along with a comment.

 

A player LFG could then brows the list of groups LFM, and use filters and such. If they saw a group LFM wanting to do what they wanted, that looked good to them based on the comment/flagging they put up, they could push a button that would send a little popup to the group leader, saying soandso wants to join, displaying your LFG comment, class, and level, and asking if the leader accepts.

 

the reason this works so well is that while lots of people might want to group, not many people want to start a group. Not many people want to take the time to look through lfg lists to find people.

 

But if you can just say you are a group looking for more, people searching for groups can find you.

 

The important thing is that it keeps the critical element of the group leader having to admit the player into the group. This is a gate that must remain intact

[NessusFett]

Even BW has admitted they can improve the LFG function they have.

 

The issue isn't that the LFG tool shouldn't be improved... it's that people don't want the *****y WoW monstrosity that's called LFD... even it you take away cross faction.

 

 

The following LFG improvements would make everything great:

 

-Group leader creates a Party listing.

In the party listing, leader can designate what roles he wants and how many of each. He can also select what the party is for and create comments about any loot rules, more specifics, etc.

 

-Person LFG can:

 

A) create "LFG listing"

B) Manually search party listings

 

If you create an LFG listing, you list the roles you're willing to play and list of content you'd like. If a party listing exists that's a match, then it pops up.

 

-Now, from this point, you "apply" to the party with any comments you want.

The group leader gets the application as a popup, and can click a button to invite you to group.

 

This type of LFG tool has the benefits of convenience, without the negatives to the social and communicative aspects of the game.

 

this obviously is an improvement on the current system, no doubt.

 

but it fails to address the real issues he was aiming at

 

1) when everyone hits max level its going to be useless spamming the world chat to find a heroic group.

 

2) a group finder would not hinder you from doing this system in ADDITION to the group finder.

 

3) on my server at least, there is almost NO ONE LFG in the who list.

This is a very populated server with late 30-mid 40's heroics what i just recently did.

 

you would have to be on during a very populated time (i love late night playing with my schedule) and even then you have to just sit there sometimes spamming for a solid 30 min.

 

this is not optimal. and we have the majority of the pop still leveling.

how bad is this going to be once we get most to 50!

[stephenjohnp]

The lack of an LFG tool ruins the community more than having one does.

 

Implement.

 

/thread

Edited January 17, 2012 by stephenjohnp

[Shadowcatra]

In games without Finders, putting together a pug goes like this:

- Spend 10-40 minutes spamming channels looking for people during which time you can't do anything else really.

- Spend 5 minutes sorting out roles and loot rules.

- Spend 10-20 minutes getting everyone to the instance entrance.

- Spend 30 minutes doing the instance.

 

In games with Finders, it's basically.

- Spend 5 minutes in queue. You can do dailies etc. while in queue.

- Spend 30 minutes doing the instance.

 

Umm... so who spends time sorting out the loot rules for the Flashpoints? It is Need/Greed. Ninjas happen because those ppl are ******es. 10-20 minutes to get everyone to the instance... You are all on the Fleet if you are spamming General. All the Flashpoints (minus 2) are on the Fleet somewhere.

 

And my favorite "Spend 5 minutes in queue" I just lol'd so hard at this. DPS= 30 min plus queue. Healers= 6 minute plus queue waiting on the Tank which gets instant queue.

 

So your whole point there is gone. The LFG Finder is unneeded and it hurts the game with unnecessary coding for the lazy players w/o friends or a guild.

[Sibonk]

Hello everyone,

 

We're going to close this thread and ask that everyone continue giving their opinions and feedback on dungeon finder tools and the current looking for group tool in our main thread, here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=184796

 

Please note that this thread is a recreation and in the original thread, Damion Schubert posted the following:

 

Improving our LFG system is high on the list of features that Systems Design wants to add to the game. We want this to be good not just for helping people find Flashpoints and Operations to run, but also other multiplayer content like heroic missions. A key emphasis will be on advertising for specific role needs (healer, tank, DPS). This feature is currently in the design stage, and once this feature has moved beyond this to a development stage and has a firm ETA, I'll be coming back to you guys to give more details.

 

We've known we would need to revisit this feature for a while. In the level-up game, finding players isn't too rough because, with few exceptions, everyone in that level band is either on your planet or on the fleet. Once more and more players hit endgame, and are spending their time in more places, the need for this feature is going to increase. Note that right now, high level players have the opposite problem - there aren't enough other players up there to group with. This problem will dissipate as the game ages, and more players reach the later levels.

 

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

 

Thank you!