Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[terminova]

No, I do not now, nor ever will support group wide damage meters like Recount. Ever.

 

 

Personal damage meters that cannot be spammed to chat are fine.

 

 

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

 

Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism.

 

The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is...

 

Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk?

 

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

-

EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.

 

EDIT UPDATE:

-

During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG!

 

People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game!

 

I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly.

 

People who don't like Recount.

[terminova]

then dont group with those people. you have all of the tools at your disposal to handle the situation.

 

With LFD tools that group you up with random people, you do not have that option, and you will not generally have the option of not using them unless you are a tank or know a tank.

[TheSkate]

you already have cookie cutter builds, all you need to do is look. the only reason it isnt more rampant is because the greater majority of the playerbase is incredibly ignorant. you can look in multiple places on this forum alone and see that. i have never said a thing about proving oneself etc because frankly its a misuse of the tool. however just because a tool can be used incorrectly doesnt mean the tool shouldnt exist, it means we should be educating others in how to use it properly. instead of promoting education you would rather just deny it exists and continue in ignorance, which is not okay.

 

 

 

this i can understand, and currently its how it is. except that whole part about nightmare actually being a challenge. endgame at the moment is an utter joke for any decent guild. the only ones having issues are the ones misdiagnosing mechanics, which a great deal of would be fixed by meters in the first place. seriously go take a look at the ops/fp forum. the vast majority of the complaints about "bugs" are either actual mechanics or bugs that can be easily overcome just by simple teamwork and situational awareness.

 

So are you suggesting that just because (and I will be generous here) 30% of the players don't abuse Recount everyone should have it? So you think that after YEARS of people trying to get *** holes in WoW not to abuse Recount you can simply hold a class and it will be all better in SWTOR? Because it won't.

 

 

Meters do not tell you about boss or fight mechanics. They tell you what hit you and for how much. And the reverse of course. You can see on the screen right now that the boss hit you for 20k damage and you died. The only difference, if the meter has this capability, is that recount will tell you the name of the attack. That is all. Nothing about mechanics or bugs. Although, I do have to admit, it will let you know if you stood in the fire like some noob, so I guess it could point out a certain lack of situational awareness

[Zarrot]

No, I've played MMO's for years with out all the crap and gadgets that polluted WoW. People don't even bother learning their classes with that junk they just click when the red light says to click like trained chickens.

[Morticoccus]

Nope, damage counters are only a tool for elitists and the epeen crowd of DPS players that equate more DPS with more skillful play, even if they stand in the fire and drain unnecessary resources from the healers.

 

Edit: And for clarification: I meant raid wide damage counters.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Morticoccus

[GOYAFIDO]

When all is said and done and the wildly emotional and hypocritical "we don't want to be judged and belittled by those judgmental, name calling, elitist, no life having, isn't it sad that they take the game so seriously, epeeners (because REAL players/guilds don't need metersBLAHBLAHBLAH)" put aside:

 

Pro-recounters are really more about excellence.

 

Anti-recounters are really more about mediocrity.

 

That's really rather sad.

Edited February 29, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Obzenia]

When all is said and done and the wildly emotional and hypocritical "we don't want to be judged and belittled by those judgmental, name calling, elitist, no life having, isn't it sad that they take the game so seriously, epeeners (because REAL players/guilds don't need metersBLAHBLAHBLAH)" put aside:

 

Pro-recounters are really more about excellence.

 

Anti-recounters are really more about mediocrity.

 

That's really rather sad.

 

Excellence is mashing all my buttons so that I can pull out the most dps... nvm moving out of those little blue circles on the ground that make me the cause of my healer running out of resources... because moving would reduce my dps.

 

Tunnel-vision. That's really rather sad.

[GOYAFIDO]

Excellence is mashing all my buttons so that I can pull out the most dps... nvm moving out of those little blue circles on the ground that make me the cause of my healer running out of resources... because moving would reduce my dps.

 

Tunnel-vision. That's really rather sad.

 

Oh look yet another player parroting the same tired, mindless, judging, belittling line about "those other players must not know how to play because they want meters."

 

EDIT: The above assumption was a bit off the mark. Apologies.

Edited February 29, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[LeeTone]

Don't know about going as far as recount but I would like a combat log.

[Obzenia]

Oh look yet another player parroting the same tired, mindless, judging, belittling line about "those other players must not know how to play because they want meters."

 

I'm just speaking from experience as a healer, no need to judge and belittle me.

 

I see I misunderstood you and I apologize. Tunnel vision IS sad.

 

Recount won't make good players bad, though. It WILL make mediocre players bad if they obsess about their numbers. People still be stand in fire without recount. I'm just speaking from experience as a healer and a tank.

 

EDIT to your EDIT and repost, then unmarked EDIT (jumpy little bean aren't ya? ): Yes I was implying that recount can create tunnel-vision, not that players who are advocating for it don't know how to play.

 

Combat logs for personal use are one thing. I'm sure many people will be posting their results on the forums for various boss encounters and you'll have ample comparative data if you want to "get better".

Edited February 29, 2012 by Obzenia

[GOYAFIDO]

I'm just speaking from experience as a healer, no need to judge and belittle me.

 

I see I misunderstood you and I apologize. Tunnel vision IS sad.

 

EDIT: Recount isn't nearly as likely to make good players bad as it is to make MEDIOCRE players bad. (Irony abounds here.)

 

People still stand in fire without recount, however. I'm just speaking from experience as a healer AND a tank.

Edited March 1, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[fallenellaf]

Hi there, I do believe that the game can be played without the recount feature and because we learned to use it and have it as a given fact in an other game we played that doesnt mean we cant play.

 

 

What I am saying is, this game lacks of basics like target of target and other important features, but you can learn how to play without them.

And I kinda like the way we play so far without them and we do fine so they are a type of luxury.

 

 

 

 

Personaly, as a tank I wouldnt mind to see a recount cause it would help monitor the agro lets say. Yet not so important since its not too complex to keep the agro on you tbh...

 

For dpsers and healers who ask recount I do believe its a vanity, since i dont want to believe that people are willing to look the recount and kick people from the guild for that...

 

 

Yet i will say that I dont mind having a recount but I concider it not an issue or even an important feature.

I hope you understand my point of view,

 

 

EDIT: also wanted to add that recount might make some people more "blind" since they are stupid enough to focus going first on that and not getting out of the fire.

Trust me I have see how people fail thanks to their stupid competition of "top dps of the group"

Edited February 29, 2012 by fallenellaf

[livnthedream]

With LFD tools that group you up with random people, you do not have that option, and you will not generally have the option of not using them unless you are a tank or know a tank.

 

this is a large part of the reason why i am against cross server lfg in general. you take away the ability for the community to discipline its problem elements and all hell breaks loose. on a per server basis you can ignore, or simply choose not to pug.

 

So are you suggesting that just because (and I will be generous here) 30% of the players don't abuse Recount everyone should have it? So you think that after YEARS of people trying to get *** holes in WoW not to abuse Recount you can simply hold a class and it will be all better in SWTOR? Because it won't.

 

hey its cool, i can pull random percents out of my backside too. attributing all of the problems to lfg to recount is stupid. you may aswell attribute all of the harm that gearscore did to it too while you are at it. what you are proposing is similar to banning guns because some moron went on a shooting spree.

 

 

Meters do not tell you about boss or fight mechanics. They tell you what hit you and for how much. And the reverse of course. You can see on the screen right now that the boss hit you for 20k damage and you died. The only difference, if the meter has this capability, is that recount will tell you the name of the attack. That is all. Nothing about mechanics or bugs. Although, I do have to admit, it will let you know if you stood in the fire like some noob, so I guess it could point out a certain lack of situational awareness

 

the entire game is a mathematical construct. right now we can pull formulas from the game files and workout fairly easily how they are supposed to function. couple that with video and other tests we can determine how they function to an "acceptable" extent. using such techniques we have already discovered things like the sin ability shock not working correctly. using such methods in a raid environment is much more difficult however. during a raid you need fairly direct info to find out exactly why a wipe occurred so you can either mitigate it, or prevent it entirely. having an actual analysis tool instead of playing a game of guesswork is always better.

 

if you want an even better example of bug finding thanks to tools, take a look at rift. the sheer number of bugs found and fixed thanks to the community have been huge. wow had this same issue to a much smaller extent, but blizzard was never willing to actually work with its community to come to a solution.

 

if anything you have shown that you shouldnt have access to recount because you do not know how to utilize it correctly. the sheer fact that you have stated your "reasoning" shows that. the crying about recount is almost as bad as the crying about particle accelerators and how they are going to open a black hole and destroy the planet.

 

Nope, damage counters are only a tool for elitists and the epeen crowd of DPS players that equate more DPS with more skillful play, even if they stand in the fire and drain unnecessary resources from the healers.

 

Edit: And for clarification: I meant raid wide damage counters.

 

again, blaming recount for poor play is poor reasoning. any "elite" player will still pull good numbers while avoiding mechanics. point of fact, that is the very definition. most of these issues are community ones. players are going to do these things whether there is a tool or not, just like the "epeen" carry me crowd is already at work saying players are "undergeared" based purely on hp levels. whether the tool is personal, raid wide, or non existent douchebags, much like life, find a way.

Edited February 29, 2012 by livnthedream

[TheSkate]

hey its cool, i can pull random percents out of my backside too. attributing all of the problems to lfg to recount is stupid. you may aswell attribute all of the harm that gearscore did to it too while you are at it. what you are proposing is similar to banning guns because some moron went on a shooting spree.

 

So, in your expert opinion, how many people actually use recount properly? I was being VERY generous by saying 30% considering out of the hundreds of people I know in WoW only a few even knew that were interrupt and healing tabs before having it pointed out to them. Ever ask that recount spammer to post the healing numbers? Their reply "Duh, I don't have a healing meter. derp."

And the gun thing... politicians do it all the time (ban guns from law abiding citizens that is).

 

 

Blah, blah. Bugs. Blah, blah.

 

if anything you have shown that you shouldnt have access to recount because you do not know how to utilize it correctly. the sheer fact that you have stated your "reasoning" shows that. the crying about recount is almost as bad as the crying about particle accelerators and how they are going to open a black hole and destroy the planet.

 

I know how to utilize recount. I never said I didn't. I just saw what it did to further degrade the community in WoW. That is a fact.

Particle accelerators creating black holes. That is science fiction.

 

again, blaming recount for poor play is poor reasoning. any "elite" player will still pull good numbers while avoiding mechanics. point of fact, that is the very definition. most of these issues are community ones. players are going to do these things whether there is a tool or not, just like the "epeen" carry me crowd is already at work saying players are "undergeared" based purely on hp levels. whether the tool is personal, raid wide, or non existent douchebags, much like life, find a way.

 

True elite players don't need to constantly monitor their DPS with recount because they ARE elite. They may use it as a tool to increase DPS on a target dummy, figuring out the ideal rotation, spec, and gear. BUT recount has no real use in combat that a simple combat log couldn't do except to point out how "BIG" your DPS is and the flaws in how other people play compared to you.

 

I already know what damage my abilities do and how much resources those abilities require, so I know my basic damage per resource. I can create a priority list for my abilities based on these facts. I know my resource pool size and my resource regeneration rate. I see the line that shows my resource pool decreasing with each attack. So if I need to use a filler ability every now and then I know that too. All these let me put together a pretty close "top DPS' ability priority list.

Is it perfect? No. Does it need to be? NO. This game does not need to have DPS optimized to perfection. This fact may put off some players, but it will keep many more people playing the game than those that leave it because it isn't hardcore enough.

[livnthedream]

So, in your expert opinion, how many people actually use recount properly? I was being VERY generous by saying 30% considering out of the hundreds of people I know in WoW only a few even knew that were interrupt and healing tabs before having it pointed out to them. Ever ask that recount spammer to post the healing numbers? Their reply "Duh, I don't have a healing meter. derp."

And the gun thing... politicians do it all the time (ban guns from law abiding citizens that is).

 

i honestly have no idea. its hard to formulate an opinion based on a very tiny segment of the playerbase. arguably most, if the current ignorance is to be taken at face value. the problem with a large chunk of the playerbase however is they refuse to believe unless it can actually be seen. a large number dont understand the math behind the formulas, much less things like simcraft etc. personally, when i do pug, i have had few issues as you describe. usually the "epeeners" and general douchebags either learn to shut up because i tell them exactly why their dps is such a way, or they quickly go on ignore because they are too stupid to be worth my time. also, in terms of your analogy, of course they ban weapons that do more harm than good, its there job. i disagree with recount (in whatever form) actually doing more harm. by your view when one has a runny nose, you cut it off rather than treat the actual infection causing it.

 

 

I know how to utilize recount. I never said I didn't. I just saw what it did to further degrade the community in WoW. That is a fact.

Particle accelerators creating black holes. That is science fiction.

 

apparently you dont. recount gives you a rather large amount of information in easily digestable format. during progression through ulduar interrupts showed us the vezax interrupt bug long before it was reported, aswell as the trash double attacks. also, as an fyi, particle accelerators do create black holes, they are merely so tiny that they evaporate before they do any harm. if you really want some great sensationalist doomcrying go back a couple years to when cern got up and running, there is a ton of headlines about it being the end of the world (some of these for even real!)

 

True elite players don't need to constantly monitor their DPS with recount because they ARE elite. They may use it as a tool to increase DPS on a target dummy, figuring out the ideal rotation, spec, and gear. BUT recount has no real use in combat that a simple combat log couldn't do except to point out how "BIG" your DPS is and the flaws in how other people play compared to you.

 

this is more proof that you dont know how to use recount. dps on a dummy is pointless. dummys are nowhere close to a real raid environment, so maximizing dps on them is hurtful (muscle memory especially) in one. dummies at best will show you trends as to how abilities scale in comparison to your talents. this system worked okish for rift because of how the soul system is designed, but much like wow and swtor you dont need to. the number of choices and how they effect your abilities are limited. we can math all of that without even a combat log. during combat, or more importantly directly after combat, is when we need recount the most. making sure abilities (both player and npc) are working correctly based on available data is essential to a decent raiding environment.

 

I already know what damage my abilities do and how much resources those abilities require, so I know my basic damage per resource. I can create a priority list for my abilities based on these facts. I know my resource pool size and my resource regeneration rate. I see the line that shows my resource pool decreasing with each attack. So if I need to use a filler ability every now and then I know that too. All these let me put together a pretty close "top DPS' ability priority list.

 

assuming the abilities are working in all areas as intended. you do know that pretty much all of the visual data this game gives you is off right? tooltips are in horrible shape, the gcd appears to be mostly working correctly now, and the combat text still isnt showing you all of your damage (video evidence). your idea of "good enough" and mine differ apparently. if the games math is correct (again, the entire thing is one large mathematical construct) then what else is screwed up?

 

Is it perfect? No. Does it need to be? NO. This game does not need to have DPS optimized to perfection. This fact may put off some players, but it will keep many more people playing the game than those that leave it because it isn't hardcore enough.

 

thats very arguable. how many players have left do to bugs or the game being boring because of lack of challenge? i know personally if things dont swing more toward a more competitive environment soon™ then my guild will be joining those on the exodus. right now we are searching for a glimmer of hope that this first operation tier was meant to be easy as a demonstration to general mechanics (boss, player, design). kaon is much better in terms of feel, design, and challenge. we are hoping the next flashpoint and op will be similar or even better. as much as you want to decry the "hardcore" playerbase we are the ones that detect and fix the bugs that make it possible for you to complete content. we merely ask to have the tools to make it worthwhile.

[Lunazen]

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing.

 

Based on the quote above, and everything it implies to me about the way people view each other within the game, and the way they view the game itself, and the general trend in MMOs the last few years, I give you my answer: No.

 

Nothing ticks me off more than having some dude in a group/raid posting everyone's dps and heals. They can get bent.

 

No doubt the assumption will be that I am an underachiever hence my answer. Nothing I can do to stop that assumption so I won't even try.

 

At any rate, I am happy to see my own dps. But I am not about to call anyone out for their dps, and I sure as hell won't put up with it being done to me.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Lunazen

[SpicySauces]

I support recount because without it I cannot tell if everyone is doing their jobs. If someone isn't holding their weight it impacts me directly in a negative way. All that needs to be done is add a recount like setup into the game for everyone to have automatically. Make it impossible to post results in chat and problem solved. No one gets spammed and all you have to do is say "Hey check out so and so pulling 2% damage" and there you have it. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[GOYAFIDO]

I'm just speaking from experience as a healer, no need to judge and belittle me.

 

 

 

EDIT to your EDIT and repost, then unmarked EDIT (jumpy little bean aren't ya? ): Yes I was implying that recount can create tunnel-vision, not that players who are advocating for it don't know how to play.

 

Combat logs for personal use are one thing. I'm sure many people will be posting their results on the forums for various boss encounters and you'll have ample comparative data if you want to "get better".

 

Not so much. The reason for addons is so humans don't have to parse those logs.

 

Pro-recounters are really more about excellence. As a group they want to be better.

 

Anti-recounters are really more about mediocrity. As a group they don't much care about being better.

 

These are both valid play styles but this is how I see it.

 

This is why people who embrace mediocrity have zero basis to complain about being kicked from a group that wants more excellence rather than less. We all should be allowed to play this game in the style in which we prefer, amirite? At least that is what a lot of anti-recounters say...until they perceive it as interfering with their ability to get into groups.

 

Some people enjoy being better, like me, or the best like the min/maxers. Others don't care about being better and just want to show up and "have fun."

 

There is nothing wrong with either approach. The real problems start when the anti-recounters act as though somehow people who want to be better CAN'T be having fun or are "doing it wrong" and they talk down to the people who want to be better...when the anti-recounters keep saying over and over that that is how they don't want to be treated themselves.

 

For most anti-recounters the very soul and foundation of their anti-recount platform is:

 

"I don't want to be judged or told what to do or treated badly for the way I play." As long as others play the way THEY play which of course is the "correct" way. As I said, there are lots of elitists judging others for their play style and skill level and talking down to them.

 

They are writing anti-recount posts. Dozens of them in fact. True story.

 

They keep writing the same posts over and over again about how recount will cause OTHER people to exhibit certain forms of abhorrent behavior, the EXACT behavior, in fact, that most of the anti-recounters are exhibiting in THEIR anti-recount posts.

 

Hypocrisy is why this conversation is completely absurd.

 

EDIT: Again, the fact that epeeners are a tiny minority and can't really influence anyone's game once they are on "ignore" just makes this even MORE absurd even though that might hardly seem possible.

 

EDIT2: Recount isn't nearly as likely to make good players bad as it is to make MEDIOCRE players bad. (Irony abounds here.) .

 

EDIT3: See the pattern in all of this? People want to be allowed to be mediocre and yet not be called out for inflicting their mediocrity on others. Then they turn around and say they don't want excellence shoved in their face. Let those OTHER, too serious, not fun having people change how THEY play, not the anti-recounters.

 

Oh wait, the anti-recounters don't want to be told how to play or be judged for it.

 

So much for the Golden Rule...

Edited March 1, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Coyotecalls]

From what I see in this thread people are saying that a recount meter would be bad because it makes people focus on DPS instead of the fight, which I agree with.

 

Yet this is a tool that is very helpful for optimizing damage/healing to be the best you can be. So here is my suggestion and the best part is: The answer is ALREADY CODED.

 

In PVP the system keeps track of your damage, your kills, your heals and so forth. So why don't we just take that code and extend it to PVE but LIKE in PVP you can only see the results AFTER the match is over. So if you are in a raid and you down a boss once you are out of combat and are healing/drinking you can pop up a recount and see what your group did but only AFTER the boss is down. While you are in combat the meter should be off the screen completely and it should reset each combat phase.

[Raeln]

Not so much. The reason for addons is so humans don't have to parse those logs.

 

Pro-recounters are really more about excellence. As a group they want to be better.

 

Anti-recounters are really more about mediocrity. As a group they don't much care about being better.

 

These are both valid play styles but this is how I see it.

 

... snip

 

In the end, if you cater to the "pro-recounters" and implement the same style of Recount as is used in WoW, then you damage the "anti-recounters" because future content will be balanced by the developers to assume Recount is being used.

 

This is really not a debatable point. It is a simple binary conclusion. If the developers have to assume that players can play more efficiently than before, they must "raise the bar" on content difficulty to maintain the same perceived level of challenge.

 

If the enrage timer was 2 minutes before Recount, then after Recount - it'll likely shift downward to perhaps 90 seconds to make up for people streamlining their DPS rotations.

 

If players have the ability to track every single interrupt - it stands to reason that future content would then contain even more abilities that need interrupted or even more debuffs that need removed.

 

The "pro-Recounters" want to have a tool that makes them more efficient. Hey, I appreciate that. The problem is that future content will have to be adjusted so that it's still just as challenging after players are at their new level of efficiency. At that point, the "anti-Recounters" must adapt and use Recount or be forced to play a game that is balanced against them.

 

It's not merely as simple as "refusing to use Recount".

Edited March 1, 2012 by Raeln

[livnthedream]

In the end, if you cater to the "pro-recounters" and implement the same style of Recount as is used in WoW, then you damage the "anti-recounters" because future content will be balanced by the developers to assume Recount is being used.

 

This is really not a debatable point. It is a simple binary conclusion. If the developers have to assume that players can play more efficiently than before, they must "raise the bar" on content difficulty to maintain the same perceived level of challenge.

 

If the enrage timer was 2 minutes before Recount, then after Recount - it'll likely shift downward to perhaps 90 seconds to make up for people streamlining their DPS rotations.

 

If players have the ability to track every single interrupt - it stands to reason that future content would then contain even more abilities that need interrupted or even more debuffs that need removed.

 

The "pro-Recounters" want to have a tool that makes them more efficient. Hey, I appreciate that. The problem is that future content will have to be adjusted so that it's still just as challenging after players are at their new level of efficiency. At that point, the "anti-Recounters" must adapt and use Recount or be forced to play a game that is balanced against them.

 

It's not merely as simple as "refusing to use Recount".

 

 

this is very accurate, the problem is we already have difficulty levels for "anti recounters" and we dont for "pro recounters". one playstyle is being catered to already, and one frankly should be with how nightmare is set up.

[_Rammie_]

If you need addons to be an effective player, you fail to start with. Having a decent knowledge/experience of all classes should be more than enough. Finding a decent skill rotation is incredibly easy if you just take the time to know your skills.

 

If you're a good player people will notice. If you're a bad player people will notice that as well. There is absolutely no reason to have addons. If you can't play effectively without them this isn't the kind of game you should be playing. Having different experiences because your teammates have different rotations and builds improve you as a player. If everyone turns to one build because "it is best" you become a lousy player.

 

No to addons, learn to play.

[Raeln]

this is very accurate, the problem is we already have difficulty levels for "anti recounters" and we dont for "pro recounters". one playstyle is being catered to already, and one frankly should be with how nightmare is set up.

 

That is a different problem that is independent of whether or not Recount is ever implemented.

 

Ask Bioware to make nightmare mode more difficult.

[Perkunas]

In the end, if you cater to the "pro-recounters" and implement the same style of Recount as is used in WoW, then you damage the "anti-recounters" because future content will be balanced by the developers to assume Recount is being used.

 

This is really not a debatable point. It is a simple binary conclusion. If the developers have to assume that players can play more efficiently than before, they must "raise the bar" on content difficulty to maintain the same perceived level of challenge.

 

If the enrage timer was 2 minutes before Recount, then after Recount - it'll likely shift downward to perhaps 90 seconds to make up for people streamlining their DPS rotations.

 

If players have the ability to track every single interrupt - it stands to reason that future content would then contain even more abilities that need interrupted or even more debuffs that need removed.

 

The "pro-Recounters" want to have a tool that makes them more efficient. Hey, I appreciate that. The problem is that future content will have to be adjusted so that it's still just as challenging after players are at their new level of efficiency. At that point, the "anti-Recounters" must adapt and use Recount or be forced to play a game that is balanced against them.

 

It's not merely as simple as "refusing to use Recount".

 

That's why you keep normal and hard at their current levels and focus on making the Nightmare modes into meter-driven progression. This way we all have content. It's like Looking for Raid in Warcraft. You get to go in and see the encounter and never have to worry about your rotation. I've actually seen videos of people auto-attacking the entire time and winning loot rolls in LFR.

[Raeln]

That's why you keep normal and hard at their current levels and focus on making the Nightmare modes into meter-driven progression. This way we all have content. It's like Looking for Raid in Warcraft. You get to go in and see the encounter and never have to worry about your rotation. I've actually seen videos of people auto-attacking the entire time and winning loot rolls in LFR.

 

This would be my choice; however, if they release Recount to the game without restricting it to Nightmare mode - then they will inevitably tune future normal content to a higher level of difficulty too.