Is it me or the healer.

[Derfmiolleh]

Dont use AOE dammage dealers, your breaking the CC and the mobs are running streaght to your healer, who probebly cast the CC.

[Pestwulf]

There is also a limit to how much can be healed going on here.

 

I know at level 25 a Commando healer has just achieved Kolto Bomb, a crap AE heal who's best attribute is increasing healing which they wouldn't even have that addition yet at 25.

 

I'm guessing the other classes are similar, not sure what type of healer you had. But for my commando I have a Medical Probe and Advanced Medical Probe and very few talents at this point to augment them. The best being my Supercharge Cell ability.

 

What this means is with 4 elite/champion mixes on you, all of which are active, it's up to you to mitigate your damage enough so that my heal rotation + reload is enough to keep you alive until their dead.

 

It sounds to me like the tank in this case did not have enough mitigation and it exceeded the healers ammo requirements(or whatever resource your healer utilizes). OR, the healer wasn't properly managing their resources.

 

From my experiences, taking a 2 Champion/ 2 elite with a 4 person group where all the mobs are focus firing on one target, it can be over quick if the person doesn't help mitigate with self defenses and med packs. This is especially true when the champions are the Gunner classes with high DPS.

 

I usually take one of the champions out with my concussion blast at the very least and then focus fire down the highest DPS enemy first.

 

To sum up, being below level, even if you had top of the line, best possible gear..which at lower levels it is very, very rare that anyone is fully decked out...you really should have used your crowd control until you found what your mitigation limit was. If one champion and a couple elites are tapping your healer..then you can tell where your wipe is gonna be

[Voidence]

pretty much this, learn to tank.

 

Coming from someone who prob plays all DPS toons....Kids in school pick on you alot don't they?

[oredith]

I have been seeing a lot of tanks having trouble keeping aggro even on 2-3 mobs. I am a healer and have aggro all the time and am not sure if the tanks just have really bad aggro tools or if I am doing it wrong.

 

Do other tanks have trouble getting and keeping aggro? I think this goes along with the OP as he seems to have the same problems as a lot of tanks I have come across. I am lvl 50 and have done a lot of the FP's.

 

this is true even at 50. jugg are just not very good at multi-mob tanking. I get hit on every multi-mob pull, even if we use every CC we have, because there's always a ton of mobs (especially in instances like False Emp). the best we can do is to ensure the one that can't be immediately picked up, is a normal mob.

[Ruuprect]

this is true even at 50. jugg are just not very good at multi-mob tanking. I get hit on every multi-mob pull, even if we use every CC we have, because there's always a ton of mobs (especially in instances like False Emp). the best we can do is to ensure the one that can't be immediately picked up, is a normal mob.

 

This is what we have been doing too. Trying to keep the elites cc'd/aggroed and let the normal mobs beat on me. I can tank a normal for a long time but if an elite starts on me we will wipe because I can't keep everyone else up and myself most of the time.

[Leohat]

... i've learned that most don't need to be tanked by me however and that dps can usually tank even up to the strong mobs in an instance.

 

And this is why I dislike healing pugs. Sloppy and lazy.

 

Groups can get away with sloppy/lazy on trash but it sets really bad habits. The bad habits that get set by sloppy/lazy groups that are used to face-rolling creates the bad that everyone hates. Tanks that won't mark. Tanks that can't/won't keep aggro. DPS that will not/can not focus fire. Etc Etc Ad Nausem.

 

If the DPS is 'tanking' anything it means that either A) the DPS is not focusing on the correct target (Focus Fire) or B) The tank is lazy and/or stupid. (Bad aggro management) C) DPS is not managing their aggro D) Someone is deliberately breaking CC or E) Not following the kill order.

 

Targets should be tanked by the main tank or if needed a designated off tank or CC'ed. Kill order should be marked and understood before the fight. Healers (especially healers) and DPS should not be 'tanking' anything.

 

If you have a tank that is 3 levels low. You are behind the 8-ball right off the bat, thus the room for sloppy shrinks drastically. Letting DPS tank mobs just because they can is sloppy, and lazy work by both the tank and DPS.

 

The raiding party fight on the Mandorian Raiders Flashpoint is the fight described by the original post. On that fight, the group fights four elite/champion mobs (I forget which exactly but it doesn't matter). For that fight, at no time should either DPS or Healers be tanking any mobs at all. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch, ZERO. All mobs on that fight should be CC'd or tanked by the main tank. The kill order should be clearly marked and understood before the fight begins. I'm not sure what level different classes get their CC but if the group doesn't have them yet, that group is too low level for that Flashpoint.

 

If I were the healer in that group, I'd quit group too. I hate bad tanks and stupid DPS. A tank that is flat out too low level is one thing but a bad tank is something else entirely.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Leohat

[Fikroc]

I agree with most the first page. I'm a healer and i've only noticed wipes if someone breaks the CC. Just make sure healer CCs one of them, ties up a third and heals with all their abilities and you should be fine. Just watch your AoEs and don't break CC.

[Cinawyn]

You can cc them now? We had to do it with no cc's. Try using the crates for line of sight to reduce teh damage giving your healer a little breathing room.

[Serranex]

I was absolutely going to come into this thread and make a combat log joke.

 

Glad to see someone do it.

 

@OP - everything you know is purely anecdotal.

 

"We couldn't do it with a scoundrel healer, but then a sage came in and we succeeded. Ergo, the healer was the problem."

 

That MIGHT seem like a logical statement to make, but it would only make sense if everything else was constant.

 

Did the Sentinel wake up and start interrupting?

Did you make better use of your cooldowns?

Did you just take less damage due to RNG?

Did other people take less damage from moving out of things?

 

Another major thing is:

 

Was the Scoundrel healer a "good" player, but he was not able to carry your underleveled toon through?

Did the Sage basically "carry" you by healing you significantly more than is expected from a healer for that level due to having a far above average skill?

 

Basically you're blaming the healer for being "bad", when it could just as easily have been you being "bad", and a merely "adequate" healer wasn't good enough. Perhaps you needed another overleveled, highly skilled player to cover for your deficiencies.

 

Without a combat log (note: combat log = death log, interrupt log, dispel log, damage taken log, healing log AS WELL as damage log), you won't ever know the real answer, and hold on to your notion that this scoundrel was terrible with no actual data to back it up.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Serranex

[dipstik]

honestly, more times than not, someone is missing a key mechanic. for mr you want to get them all to low health (like 5%) then mow em all down. someone said i sucked at healing and ragequit, then i do the instance with a pro group and we do just fine. unfortunatly, more people are happy doing things the hard way than thinking about how they can use their enviornment to make the mobs more managable.

[Resallaprov]

You can cc them now? We had to do it with no cc's. Try using the crates for line of sight to reduce teh damage giving your healer a little breathing room.

 

This.

 

If it's the fight where it's 4 on 4, you can't CC any of the mobs. The kill order is important though.

 

We killed them in this order.

 

Melee DPS, Healer, Ranged DPS, Tank

 

Reason we took out the melee dps first is it appeared they didn't have an aggro table and just hopped around hitting everyone. This loose cannon had to be dealt with first.

 

Now, if you want to talk about a fight that will make you mad, Foundry hard mode last boss Revan. Once he gets to around 50%, we've noticed he'll hit the tank for 80k. It appears he casts something, but it's instant and we have zero chance to interrupt that.

 

If anyone has suggestions, that'd be great. We've only beaten it once, and we are certain it was luck...lol

Edited January 17, 2012 by Resallaprov

[Aimorai]

They were able to be CC'd a couple of weeks ago -- at least, all but the melee DPS was. Did they take that out again?

 

Anyway, yes, kill order is particularly important in this fight.

 

Kill the Melee DPS first, no questions asked.

 

After that, we killed the Bounty Hunter simply because his mortaring gets annoying. We had CC'd the sorcerer (healer) and by the time his CC broke (roughly 1 minute - I re cc'd, being the sage/healer, but he only needed the CC for an additional 15 seconds), the Imperial Agent and the Sorcerer were left. We burned them equally so that there wasn't one all-powerful enemy left at the end due to the buff after each one dies.

 

I think we could have easily killed sorc 2nd and BH 3rd, but since the BH had more hitpoints, we felt it would be easier to double on the Agent and Sorc at the same time.

 

CC'ing the sorc helped, certainly (no annoying lightning attacks), but I don't think it was super-necessary.

 

As for the "Is it me or my healer?" problem - honestly, it's probably a bit of both. If it were something obvious, you'd likely know. At that particular instance, for me as a sage, i didn't have a lot of my toolset yet, so I was basically spamming my big heal on the tank and putting force armor the DPS if they took aggro. If I had a moment to throw them a heal, I would, but they were pretty good about using medpacks if necessary (or to stop attacking if they drew aggro).

 

So - was your healer pretty much spamming you the entire time? Did they take noticeable breaks? Did you find you were wrestling with DPS for aggro constantly (doesn't sound like it based on your description). Did the healer run to you if they took aggro? Lots of questions, you may not even remember all the answers

[Brakner]

Level 50 Merc healer here. (using heal averages)

 

 

My main 2 heals at 50 are for around 1500 and 2k with a 12 second recharge on the first, I have an “oh crap” that heals for 1200 with a 21 second cool down. I also have a Kolto missile for around 1k every 6 seconds and a Kolto shell that fires off every 3 seconds for about 250.

 

Do you see the issue here?

 

Even with a 40% crit and 80% surge and cycling the Healing Scan, Rapid Scan and both Kolto when up, the best I can heal you for is 8500 or so every 6 seconds (this includes cool downs, crit and heat factor). This might seem like a lot but its not, especially if you have 17,000 hp’s. That’s basically your full hp’s in 12 seconds! In WoW I could easily heal you for your full hp’s in half that same time and have some to spare.

 

This game is designed different, its designed to balance Tank mitigation - cool downs with group CC and DPS quickly picking of the trash while the tank holds agro on the main Elite(s). It’s a team effort.

 

 

 

P.S. We regularly do all Flashpoints up to and including the hard modes with our guild and I have not had any issues healing my tanks. This is because we work together as a team the way I described above. (CC, picking off, tank mitigation and cool downs so on )

 

Basically you have to work for it and use your brains and not just mash 2 keys over and over

Edited January 17, 2012 by Brakner

[Nanoling]

Problem would be solved with combat logs/meters.

 

Just sayin

 

 

Yeah, because there's no whine threads about Heals/tanks/dps sucking and not doing their job/slacking/failing in the WoW forums, are there?

 

 

Stop it, man. if this is the best you can do to sell your argument for parsers, then dont even try.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Nanoling

[oredith]

This game is designed different, its designed to balance Tank mitigation - cool downs with group CC and DPS quickly picking of the trash while the tank holds agro on the main Elite(s). It’s a team effort.

exactly.

 

this is kinda like when WOTLK first came out, and everyone had to retool because they couldn't AOE nuke everything (course, that was overcome by gear quickly enough).

 

I am a 50 BH merc, healing a Jugg tank.. I don't have any other tank to compare to, so I don't know how the mitigation is, but the jugg seems to be stable for a long time, and then suddenly dip. healing is unpredictable.

 

people need to know that you can't just nuke everything down, and that coordination is necessary.

 

on that note, please please please, BW, please let me keybind raid markers.

 

right click -> assign marker gets really really old. I could assign markers at a rate of about 1 per second in wow thanks to hotkeys (ctrl+alt+[number])

[CapitaFK]

It depends, really, and I'm of the belief that everyone's at fault. I've soloed Heroic 4 content by using my 60-second CC on one gold, using periodic CC and mitigation on the other, and burning down the third. My companion is a pro at not hitting CC'd targets, so why can't players be the same?

 

I've seriously been in several groups with CC orders and the tank just jumps in and AOE's everything. Gee, thanks for making it that much harder for me to heal you, bud. Or the Sniper who tosses the grenade nonchalantly because it's part of his solo rotation. Seriously?

 

Serious case of L2P.

[laparkuh]

For everyone stating "factually" that none of the group of 4 can be mezzed, please stop. You obviously don't pay attention to encounters at all. Rotham is the only NPC in that fight who's immune...

[Melkathi]

Done that fight as a healer. We wiped because I died.

If you guys wiped because you (the tank) died, while the healer had no aggro and the dps were doing ok as well, then he/she wasn't up to it.

If you died because the healer had so much aggro that he had to take some time to heal himself, then it wasn't their fault.

It could also be the dps' fault who really should keep an eye out for any runners that forget the tank to go after the healer, so that the healer can concentrate on healing you.