Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[BlueSkittles]

I have news for some people... WoW is not the MMO standard, it's not the best quality MMO, it's not the one with the most features, it is not the one that invented LFG features... it's only the most popular MMO, that does not indicate anything other than "popularity begets popularity" and aggressive marketing. You need only turn on the television or the radio or go to a movie theater to realize that alot of complete and utter trash becomes popular and that the majority of people don't always like the best. Alot of great, high quality things go unrecognized simply because people don't look outside of what happens to be popular. Most popular does not mean best. Many of us have played other great MMOs with great quality features, and seen them succeed AND maintain community using features like this. Just because bad things MAY have happened in WoW, even if they DID, doesn't mean they would in other MMOs or other "communities".

 

Example: Star Wars is kind of popular, but only with a fringe crowd... You know what's more popular these days? Harry Potter and Twilight. Does that mean they're better than Star Wars? Hell no...

 

Yep, WoW is the standard (with EQ1 and UO before that). Sorry Aeon, I like a lot of your opinions but not only is WoW the standard, a LOT of SWTOR's systems are based on WoW systems. I actually love Star Wars (of course) and Harry Potter, but not Twilight (because I'm not a girl/woman). What is wrong with liking a popular system/movie? I agree, not everything "popular" is "good", but in WoW's case, I find that popular does equal good.

[AeonWeapon]

Why are you so against the idea of someone being able to not preform, but just queue and say they want to be paired with people local server? This doesn't have to be seperate queues, and probably means that hey are going to be in the queue longer because of their preference.

 

 

I ask you again why would you be against an option for people to choose to queue locally with nobody in their group just a check box? This isn't saying no dungeon finder or no cross server just purely the option to queue as fits you.

 

Ummm... you didn't read much obviously.

 

I'm not against that option at all, in fact I may have been teh first on in this thread to suggest it. Go back about 10 pages and you'll see a post where I said:

Check box: [] Queue on server [] Queue cross server

 

What I'm against is people who say "you can't have cross-server LFG because I only want to queue on server." Waht I'm saying is, don't ruin it for us, at the very least they could queue up in premade groups like they already have in warzones.

 

If they're so adamant about keeping things the way they are NOW, then they should have no problem forming a team to queue up premade, right? Because if they do have a problem with it, then they obviously aren't really against having an LFG tool.

[AeonWeapon]

Yep, WoW is the standard (with EQ1 and UO before that). Sorry Aeon, I like a lot of your opinions but not only is WoW the standard, a LOT of SWTOR's systems are based on WoW systems. I actually love Star Wars (of course) and Harry Potter, but not Twilight (because I'm not a girl/woman). What is wrong with liking a popular system/movie? I agree, not everything "popular" is "good", but in WoW's case, I find that popular does equal good.

 

I'm just saying, WoW actually lacks alot of features that other MMOs have. I'll use for example, appearance customization: Very limited in WoW, but a HUGE amount of appearance options in City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC universe, and others.

 

Not saying there's anythign wrong if you liek popular things, I'm jsut saying popular does not mean best, and popular does not mean it should be the only source of ideas for standard features in a new MMO. When they made TOR, they shouldn't have jsut gone on the WoW model, they should have sent people out int eh field to log into other great MMOs and get ideas from everywhere, so TOR could have everything that the Star Wars fan and the MMO enthusiast could want. I don't think more than half of our players in TOR are coming from WoW, many of us are coming form other games.

[Vitiock]

Ummm... you didn't read much obviously.

 

I'm not against that option at all, in fact I may have been teh first on in this thread to suggest it. Go back about 10 pages and you'll see a post where I said:

Check box: [] Queue on server [] Queue cross server

 

What I'm against is people who say "you can't have cross-server LFG because I only want to queue on server." Waht I'm saying is, don't ruin it for us, at the very least they could queue up in premade groups like they already have in warzones.

 

If they're so adamant about keeping things the way they are NOW, then they should have no problem forming a team to queue up premade, right? Because if they do have a problem with it, then they obviously aren't really against having an LFG tool.

 

Where do I say I don't want a LFD tool that is better? This is a discussion about a dungeon finder and what kind of features it should have isn't it? I personally would like one that's self server but I think people who want cross server should have the option. I don't see why you can't agree that the option is better because it allows more people to play the way they want but instead just say well they can preform and queue as it is now.

[AeonWeapon]

Another note: Many of you may have noticed I'm spending alot of free time on my 3 day weekend talking about this on the forum, it's because I'm so frustrated that I wanted to play the content in this game that I want to play, but I feel like I'm stuck right now and can't play. My work week begins again tomorrow, and I'll have an hour or two each evening to play, and I won't be able to. Either I'll log in for an hour, try to find a team, fail, and log out, my time wasted, or I just won't bother trying. I feel I'm getting nothing for the game time I payed for, and it saddens me. Like I said, I have 58 more days paid for, and if there's no tool in place to allow me to do group content easily by the end of that time, I'm not paying for more time. I really want to love this game, but if I can't even play it, it's impossible to love it...

[AeonWeapon]

Where do I say I don't want a LFD tool that is better? This is a discussion about a dungeon finder and what kind of features it should have isn't it? I personally would like one that's self server but I think people who want cross server should have the option. I don't see why you can't agree that the option is better because it allows more people to play the way they want but instead just say well they can preform and queue as it is now.

 

I didn't say the option wasn't better...

 

What I'm saying is, if it's too hard for them to sort out the priorities enough to make that option, it shouldn't keep us from getting a cross server tool, because those of you who want to team on server can still premake a group. Since most of you seem to say "you don't need a tool, shouting in chat works fine" then you shouldn't have a problem with this.

 

But yeah, if they can give the little check boxes, that would be great.

 

What bothers me is Bioware says they're putting in a server only LFG tool, then they will wait and see "if a cross server tool is needed"... it's needed! Same server tool alone would do little to nothing to make the situation better, because there would still be a very limited pool of players to team with.

 

Hell it's obvious at this point that they need a cross-server warzone queue too. For us imperials 90% of pvp matches are huttball... Republic side is far less populated.

Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[Vitiock]

I didn't say the option wasn't better...

 

What I'm saying is, if it's too hard for them to sort out the priorities enough to make that option, it shouldn't keep us from getting a cross server tool, because those of you who want to team on server can still premake a group. Since most of you seem to say "you don't need a tool, shouting in chat works fine" then you shouldn't have a problem with this.

 

But yeah, if they can give the little check boxes, that would be great.

 

What bothers me is Bioware says they're putting in a server only LFG tool, then they will wait and see "if a cross server tool is needed"... it's needed! Same server tool alone would do little to nothing to make the situation better, because there would still be a very limited pool of players to team with.

 

Hell it's obvious at this point that they need a cross-server warzone queue too. 90% of pvp matches are huttball... Republic is far less populated.

 

Cross server is far more complicated than adding on some logic for people to say same server, optimizing it might take some time but it would be fairly easy to add the logic for a same server option, also note bio-ware is pro same server anti cross server so the idea of same server option slowing you down is a bit silly the option might be the only way you get your cross server.

[AeonWeapon]

Cross server is far more complicated than adding on some logic for people to say same server, optimizing it might take some time but it would be fairly easy to add the logic for a same server option, also note bio-ware is pro same server anti cross server so the idea of same server option slowing you down is a bit silly the option might be the only way you get your cross server.

 

Ok man, I'm getting confused by your reaction to me...

 

Judging by every comment you've made to me so far, I'm just going to say you're misunderstanding everything I say, and leave it at that.

Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[BlueSkittles]

Cross server is far more complicated than adding on some logic for people to say same server, optimizing it might take some time but it would be fairly easy to add the logic for a same server option, also note bio-ware is pro same server anti cross server so the idea of same server option slowing you down is a bit silly the option might be the only way you get your cross server.

 

Not sure if Bioware is "anti cross server", as only Bioware knows what they are for/against. But they DO feel "our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan." So it's up to us to convince them that cross-server IS good for the game at this stage of it's lifespan.

 

I see two things from this:

1. It's VERY hard to engineer a cross-server system so they are waiting until it is absolutely needed before putting precious resources to a system which may or may not be needed at launch/close-to-post-launch.

2. They were hoping they had more time in which to add a cross-server system, but unfortunately, their player base moves faster than they want/expected and we feel we NEED a system now or "very soon", because a not-insignificant amount of us are not able to play Flashpoint/Operation content even while leveling, let alone endgame.

Edited January 23, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[Manathayria]

Let me get off topic a moment to pick WoW apart.

Everything WoW uses exsisted in other games. Everything from the UI to the mounts to the raids. Most of the concepts they had were not reinventing the wheel. Right down to boss mechanics. The difference between them and other MMOs right now is they were good with watching trends and exploiting them. (Right now their CS takes minutes to get through and have a solution - with active CS on the forums... which seem lacking here)

 

Now.. back to cross server LFD.

 

Coding for cross server is probably a nightmare. The reason I say we need bug fixes done first is there's some class quests that are broke. All you have to do is google SWTOR bugs and you'll find tons that are still in game. To include 'Error 9000' (a bug which has fully knocked people's systems offline and reset routers). One of the individuals I know that has the Error 9000 issue has a better computer than mine and mine runs it flawlessly, so it's not just 'well they have crap systems'. Some of that needs to be fixed as a priority over faster cross server qs if we do get faster server only qs until they can deal with it. I think that's fair to ask that the errors that make this game fully unplayable for some individuals be taken care of prior to us getting cross server and introducing more bugs into the system.

 

We don't know how many people are just out in the world questing or farming that don't want to sit idle on the space port, so we really don't know how 'necessary' it is to have this feature. This is likely what they're wanting to check.

 

Yes, I'm on the fence about the entire cross server issue. I prefer grouping with people from my server just because it puts me in contact with people I might otherwise not see on server but may enjoy running with, unless they let you chose to run with a specific person cross realm later, it seems like a waste. (This is a service I believe wow was looking at charging an extra fee for).

 

I felt WoW burned us with Real ID and the idea of cross server 'friends' with that lost it's appeal. Something similar to the new 'battle tag' they have would work... I get that CoH had it work, and EVE had the single server thing working well, as did Guildwars. I can't really say it wasn't released with them having no intent of dabbling into it later on, but it was released without it and with no indication that it'd be a feature they'd put in later.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Manathayria

[AeonWeapon]

Not sure if Bioware is "anti cross server", as only Bioware knows what they are for/against. But they DO feel "our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan." So it's up to us to convince them that cross-server IS good for the game at this stage of it's lifespan.

 

I see two things from this:

1. It's VERY hard to engineer a cross-server system so they are waiting until it is absolutely needed before putting precious resources to a system which may or may not be needed at launch/close-to-post-launch.

2. They were hoping they had more time in which to add a cross-server system, but unfortunately, their player base moves faster than they want/expected and we feel we NEED a system now or "very soon", because a not-insignificant amount of us are not able to play Flashpoint/Operation content even while leveling, let alone endgame.

 

Not able to do level 50 flashpoints, not able to do hard flashpoints, not able to do warzones that aren't huttball lol, not able to do open world pvp daily missions, not able to do ops... pretty much everything in endgame is ruined by not having a large enough player pool. In the case of flashpoints/ops, this would be fixed by reaching across server and getting access to more online players. In the case of pvo, there would be more republic players to fight against.

[BlueSkittles]

Let me get off topic a moment to pick WoW apart.

Everything WoW uses exsisted in other games. Everything from the UI to the mounts to the raids. Most of the concepts they had were not reinventing the wheel. Right down to boss mechanics. The difference between them and other MMOs right now is they were good with watching trends and exploiting them. (Right now their CS takes minutes to get through and have a solution - with active CS on the forums... which seem lacking here)

 

I agree. WoW "borrowed" everything. But they made each feature so much better than other games, IMHO. One of the reasons they were so popular and why I played for 7 years.

 

Now.. back to cross server LFD.

 

Coding for cross server is probably a nightmare. The reason I say we need bug fixes done first is there's some class quests that are broke. All you have to do is google SWTOR bugs and you'll find tons that are still in game. To include 'Error 9000' (a bug which has fully knocked people's systems offline and reset routers). One of the individuals I know that has the Error 9000 issue has a better computer than mine and mine runs it flawlessly, so it's not just 'well they have crap systems'. Some of that needs to be fixed as a priority over faster cross server qs if we do get faster server only qs until they can deal with it. I think that's fair to ask that the errors that make this game fully unplayable for some individuals be taken care of prior to us getting cross server and introducing more bugs into the system.

 

If you know anything about game development, fixing bugs and adding features are two completely separate things. There are teams to do both, not interfering with each other in the slightest, except maybe to borrow someone's expertise to fix a specific bug or if they worked on that specific buggy feature. So saying they need to fix bugs BEFORE adding in a better LFG doesn't actually work. They can do both.

Edited January 23, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[AeonWeapon]

Bioware - Still in need of Raid to destroy all the bugs.

 

That's what the Colocoid war game is, they secretly have us fighting the game bugs... so get to flashpointing!

(Thinking of the novel, Ender's Game):

The kid thought he was playing a game the whole time, but he was really controlling real troops fighting against real aliens on another planet.

Book spoiler, in case anyone who hasn't read it wants to read it lol

Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[Manathayria]

If you know anything about game development, fixing bugs and adding features are two completely separate things. There are teams to do both, not interfering with each other in the slightest, except maybe to borrow someone's expertise to fix a specific bug or if they worked on that specific buggy feature. So saying they need to fix bugs BEFORE adding in a better LFG doesn't actually work. They can do both.

They can do both if the one doesn't change something that makes the other worse....

 

Which is why I rather see this tool out, more bug fixes, more content releases, and then if server only is lacking (Which I do expect it to be, lets face it, especially for odd hours in march when the Aussies potentially get kicked over to their own servers) I'd be open to cross server (hopefully with options).

[Ameenachan]

And because you're not having a problem, on your server, at the time you play... SUPPOSEDLY... then no one else could possibly be having a problem finding a team, on their server, at the time they play.... That's what you're saying, right? Like a dozen other BSers before you in this thread.

 

I really am getting annoyed with people who come in here and say this same unsympathetic nonsense.

 

I'm not being unsympathetic. Sure sometimes groups fall through, its called patience. :/

[Touchbass]

I doubt they will use a system like this. WoW's little cross server one was horrible when it first came out as it exposed your full name. Which was bad because you had small children playing a game where they may not know better than to add everyone as a friend, and like it or not there are predators on the net - who would have loved that system. Believe it was changed with battletag but that was too little too late.

If they use a system like this, I hope they are very careful to keep personal info off the boards (IE, not showing your full first and last name which is what WoW's did.)

 

This post isn't even very relevant to our discussion. Blizzard has since fixed the majority of the problems with Real I.D. to the best of my understanding, so why are you bringing this up?

You really think this goes away with cross server dungeons? It gets worse. Maybe you missed the issues people had with getting kicked in other games due to not being geared enough, or in all epics? I've done dungeons like this where I was full epic, we weren't having issues but one guy was in the best he could get pre-heroics.... and the group kicked him because he wasn't good enough for them. (Even though he did more DPS than both the others we had in group). This is why people are against the cross server LFD.

 

You've ignored his point entirely about members of the community abusing gear requirements for high level dungeons to the point of a Catch 22 and thus preventing access. Furthermore Blizzard has inserted a votekick penatly, you cannot kick people anymore on a whim without harsh penalties to your ability to kick.

 

Cross server they'll get just as pissy if you're in blues/greens and won't put forward the effort on your character - in fact, they're usually worse, because they know the chance of running across you again is less.

 

You're not suppose to be in epics before you start heroics, this is a classic example of the Catch - 22 that prevented access and helped contribute to the necessity of the X-LFD system. Furthermore, your assertion of the behaviour of pugs and is at most a minor nuisance that is acceptable under the "risks vs rewads" of the X-LFD.

 

After they have put in a LFD tool, and we have seen how well it works. I would be willing - if servers need more for LFD - are given cross server with the option of []cross server []server only.

 

This is more then reasonable. +1 for compromise.

 

I feel they have too many other bugs to work out at this time to sit worrying about cross server - I would rather see the other bugs fixed and the server only LFD tool added first

 

To tell you the truth, my personal opinion on the whole thing is the game came out to early and many things were ignored and they haven't had any free time to worry about the LFD+ (server only). I think they thought they could buy some time and push the issue under the rug for a few months but now that it's becoming painfully obvious that the current system isn't working and needs improvement in one capacity or another.

 

there was more 'go go go' spam

 

I found people tended to be in more of a rush at the higher levels and remarks like that are common every so often. People sometimes login and don't have to time to wait around for a player to smell the roses for 5 minutes cause their gametime may be limited. It's still better then "DPS LF x,y,z" spam for hours on end

 

 

As for this, I never ran into that 'you must be x gear level or you can't come' with needing to outgear an instance before ever stepping foot into it.

 

Lucky you. The entire experience was frustrating to say the say the least, I won't even go into the TBC politis of trying to get a group as a dps without a CC

 

Again, instead of 'forcing' the cross server/no cross server issue, let people pick within the ui. []cross server []server only.

 

This would need some tweaking but I can be down as a compromise.

 

If given the []cross server []server only option, even looking at it pulling server first for everyone, then filling, those that chose server only would likely have a longer q than those picking cross server. It would be the price they pay for choosing to play only with people on their server.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking in the above response.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Touchbass

[AeonWeapon]

I'm not being unsympathetic. Sure sometimes groups fall through, its called patience. :/

 

Another comment I'm SICK of hearing... because I don't want to spend an hour looking for a team doesn't mean I'm impatient. On weekdays, I'm lucky if I have 2 hours to spare in the evening to play, and I don't want half of that time logged in the game to be spent NOT playing. That's what you people don't get, because by the way you talk, you must have all the time in the world to play and nothing else you need to do during the day.

[AeonWeapon]

They can do both if the one doesn't change something that makes the other worse....

 

Which is why I rather see this tool out, more bug fixes, more content releases, and then if server only is lacking (Which I do expect it to be, lets face it, especially for odd hours in march when the Aussies potentially get kicked over to their own servers) I'd be open to cross server (hopefully with options).

 

Features like a more easy, faster way to form a team and get on with playing the content IS new content... and very important content. More content is worthless if you can't play the content, you see?

 

I don't have time to play the content if it's going to take an hour (or more) to even get started playing (if I'm lucky).

 

Bioware... I've already wasted a week of payed playtime because I couldn't team up to play the content... please give us this tool so more time isn't wasted. I'm not going to keep paying for a game I can't play.

Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[Touchbass]

I don't have time to play the content if it's going to take an hour (or more) to even get started playing (if I'm lucky).

 

For reasons as you mentioned, I don't get why people are against the teleport to instance option. Anything that decreases the amount of wasted time is a positive. People can argue about 'time sinks' and what not those only work for people who are going to do them regardless, you make time sinks that people don't agree with and people will just not do them.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Touchbass

[AeonWeapon]

For reasons as you mentioned, I don't get why people are against the teleport to instance option. Anything that decreases the amount of wasted time is a positive. People can argue about 'time sinks' and what not those only work for people who are going to do them regardless, you make time sinks that people don't agree with and people will just not do them.

 

These aggressive naysayers seem to be against anything that makes a game less tedious and more fun to play. I don't understand their logic, and I don't think they themselves understand why they feel that way, because their reasons are flimsy if not nonexistent.

 

It's just a bunch of "argh, no! bad! it's just bad, shut up! you want insta-win button noob lolz"

Edited January 23, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[Touchbass]

Aeon, I'm hearing rumbling going around about Bioware adding an improved internal LFD+ feature but I can't for the life of my find their post. You know anything about this?

[AeonWeapon]

Aeon, I'm hearing rumbling going around about Bioware adding an improved internal LFD+ feature but I can't for the life of my find their post. You know anything about this?

 

I keep hearing that, but I'm yet to see anything. I fear for our cause that it might just be a rumor.

 

I heard it enough times for a while that for some reason, uncharacteristic for me, I accepted it as certain, but I would like to see an official statement myself. Ah, hopes can sometimes delude us it seems.

 

I wish a developer would come into this 80 page long thread and give us some input on the team's feelings.

Edited January 24, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[Touchbass]

I keep hearing that, but I'm yet to see anything. I fear for our cause that it might just be a rumor.

 

I heard it enough times for a while that for some reason, uncharacteristic for me, I accepted it as certain, but I would like to see an official statement myself. Ah, hopes can sometimes delude us it seems.

 

I wish a developer would come into this 80 page long thread and give us some input on the team's feelings.

 

There needs to be a Dev tracker or something out there. Also this thread has capped 4 time already and is one of the bigger ones out there

[Manathayria]

This post isn't even very relevant to our discussion. Blizzard has since fixed the majority of the problems with Real I.D. to the best of my understanding, so why are you bringing this up?

Reminding people how terrible of an idea it was to expose too much information (especially concerning minors) may keep the same mistake from being made again. If cross server works, and they decide to add in cross server friends lists, a similar system executed with more care would be good.

 

You've ignored his point entirely about members of the community abusing gear requirements for high level dungeons to the point of a Catch 22 and thus preventing access. Furthermore Blizzard has inserted a vote kick penatly, you cannot kick people anymore on a whim without harsh penalties to your ability to kick.

That issue exists both in the vote kick system and our current system. The difference is in one you get a few minutes in the dungeon, in the other they simply exclude you, and in one they get two tries at getting a dps/other that suits them, not infinite.

 

If you're having issues, yes, you should be working for more gear while waiting to get into heroics. It doesn't stop at 'I'm 50, now lemme in!' That said, no, you definitely should NOT be required to be in all epics for a heroic style dungeon. Player's expectations that you will be though won't be going away any time soon. We should be very happy that it's possible to gear up for them in 5 days rather than spending a few weeks getting the right blues, or even months getting them to get a decent set to tank/other in heroics.

 

The catch 22 issue will exist in both systems - the difference is if the group has the ability to 'enforce' it or not.

 

To tell you the truth, my personal opinion on the whole thing is the game came out to early and many things were ignored and they haven't had any free time to worry about the LFD+ (server only). I think they thought they could buy some time and push the issue under the rug for a few months but now that it's becoming painfully obvious that the current system isn't working and needs improvement in one capacity or another.

I agree.

I found people tended to be in more of a rush at the higher levels and remarks like that are common every so often. People sometimes login and don't have to time to wait around for a player to smell the roses for 5 minutes cause their gametime may be limited. It's still better then "DPS LF x,y,z" spam for hours on end

Truth. I ran into that a lot. It's nice to get breaks in that even at high end where the group being random sometimes becomes entirely so you can get the reward, and screw everyone else playing the game.

 

That seems to be the wrong attitude, and I've seen that a lot with people that want to need everything for companions. Which runs back to why I think the loot rolls need changed before the cross server hits. Or you will have that guy that needs everything 'because my companion can use it'. Or waits till the end of the dungeon to need everything off that one for the same reason.

 

Lucky you. The entire experience was frustrating to say the say the least, I won't even go into the TBC politis of trying to get a group as a dps without a CC

That issue there wasn't a matter of needing to outgear it though, the issue there was people requiring x class for y instance, and generally requiring that it be a specific DPS for each slot.

 

I started off DPS druid, I ended tank druid because I couldn't get groups... I regularly made groups that were tank - healer - 1 dps without cc, then dps with cc. I did it just because I'd had trouble myself and didn't have issues helping out. That said, the practice of doing that to include dps without cc was uncommon.

 

I would like to see people push the idea of the compromise for the LFD servers because it is a step up from the past systems, and should vastly improve the current. Provided the []server only check is throwing you into the same q that others on your server are using to enter the cross server q.

 

I know (and going back to that game again) wow has it set up so at the moment, if you q for a dungeon, it checks your server, then checks others to set up a group, which may end up being the best we get, but I can hope.

 

If Qs are still too slow with the option of either or, they can always fully push cross server as well. It'd give everyone that has not tried it a chance to get a taste of it to decide for themselves if they hate it or love it rather than basing it on others opinions. It'd also show BW how well the community takes to it.

 

[Edited - cut down a little redundancy]

Edited January 24, 2012 by Manathayria

[AeonWeapon]

There needs to be a Dev tracker or something out there. Also this thread has capped 4 time already and is one of the bigger ones out there

 

There is a dev tracker, on the main forum page, I was just looking in there, but I can't find anything on LFG. Someone in this thread did say there was a post about it somewhere in the dev tracker.