Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Sendrel]

Yeah, the massive influx of group quests to this game while leveling has to be one the biggest design flaws yet to be seen for a lot of people. We're still in the honeymoon phase but once this game matures those things are going to be a bane for a lot of people. Hell I see people spamming for the same group quests over the duration of a 3-4 hour gaming session on Tatoonie.

 

I think they're great.

 

Or rather, I would think they were great given the addition of a fully functioning grouping tool.

[Touchbass]

I think they're great.

 

Or rather, I would think they were great given the addition of a fully functioning grouping tool.

 

I've played an MMORPG to maturity and trust me group quests are only fun for a limited time as people are only leveling and doing them for a limited time. So new players and alt rollers get the shaft unless you think begging people to help you who are higher level is content access.

 

By the time this game matures a bit more, it'd be great if they had a working tool for them as well, even server side would work.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Touchbass

[savagepotato]

I don't think you are being fair on Blizzard, not only can Blizzard refine ideas but they can create their own. Blizzard made those meeting stones with the expressed purpose of helping level appropriate groups, not for high level members to port other people around with ease. I know hindsight makes it look stupid as if it was a colossal failure, it does not mean it was a poor idea or implementation. I don't undersand the last portion of your point there, come again please

 

 

 

Of course we want a working solution, nobody is demanding a LFD for the sole purpose of a LFD. We want access to content and so far it's the prescribed method that works. All solutions server bound DO NOT work a chunk of the player base which BW needs to obtain to keep the game going to best of it's ability. Selling more records may not inherently make him a better musician but selling more records buys him the vocal coaches, music production equipment and all the stage presence money can buy to make an actually entertaining show.

 

 

 

 

There are no scientific studies that show people are more likely to be jerks in the Dungeon Finder then in a real life environment., if there are I'd like to read them! Joking aside, I don't know how much more of a jerk being annoymous in LFD makes you, if any. I have a hard time believing people are perfect angels that change into foul mouth curs once they enter the LFD. The majority of my dungeon finder experiences in WoW are above average, with the odd few cases of someone having a bad day, in almost every case not waiting an additional 20-30 minutes to find a group has overidden my feeling of contempt for that person

 

The second part here you are clearly fabricating things to make your side of the argument look good. No you do not have to make it to the lowest common denominator. When Cata launched, WoW's heroics were painfully difficult for a vast majority of LFD pugs and wipes and disbands were common all the time on certain fights. After sufficient time the LFD was buffed so the rest of the players could go through while still allowing the people who wanted an challenge initially to have it. Everyone won.

 

He didn't say there are any scientific studies done on the lfd tool.

 

There are however studies on the impact of anonymity, which is precisely what he DID say.

 

Here is just one example.

https://www.msu.edu/user/trescami/thesis.htm?pagewanted=all

[Sendrel]

I've played an MMORPG and trust me group quests are only fun for a limited time as people are only leveling and doing them for a limited time. So new players and alt rollers get the shaft unless you think begging people to help you who are higher level is content access.

 

By the time this game matures a bit more, it'd be great if they had a working tool for them as well, even server side would work.

 

I agree with you.

 

My point was more that they would be the bee's knees with the inclusion of a group finder tool.

[savagepotato]

Apples and oranges.... please insert another quarter and try again

 

Uh how about no. It is a highly accurate comparison.

 

Please come up with something better than one line trolling in the future.

[DarthKhaos]

People don't use the current system cause it doesn't work. Bioware made the genious decision of making 2 DPS per group instead of 3 and not allowing Dual Spec for Heals/tank. *** what they thinking? People got tired of sitting around all day and spamming and said screw it, why do you think some servers are implementing server wide chats as a recommended remedy?

 

You think people are lazy, I know people who have searched actively for over an hour with no responses. If no one is available, no one is available, no amount of refined tools can fix that except a LFD feature. It's coming, trust me on that, just when is the question not if.

And it will never work if people don't use it. It's kinda a cycle.

 

Answer me this if everyone all over the game that wants to find a group flags them self and sets their comment would it be easier to SEE who's looking for group and select a Tank/Healer/DPS from the list of people looking for your flashpoint? Yes or No?

 

You do know if you search for "LFG" you search the entire game not just the location you are on and places the first 100 it finds?

[CLASSlFlED]

If forming a group is "work" I would question what you call work and/or your choice of game genre.

 

 

Standing around in the fleet calling out "LF Healer Directive 7" every 1 minute for near 45 minutes sure is fun right?

[Touchbass]

He didn't say there are any scientific studies done on the lfd tool.

 

There are however studies on the impact of anonymity, which is precisely what he DID say.

 

Here is just one example.

https://www.msu.edu/user/trescami/thesis.htm?pagewanted=all

 

 

If you read my point you'd understand that I was being facetious, you see what I mean ... actually no, just my read my point again it's very clear what I meant

[ferroz]

I'll run you through a typical LFD thread from my perspective:

Anti-LFD Guy 1: LFD sucks! It destroys communities!

 

Pro-LFD Guy: How does it 'destroy communities?

 

Anti-LFD Guy 1: It forces people to sit around a hub, not venturing out into the world, promotes ninja's, destroys accountability and ruins social networking! Also, I caught it looking lewdly at my dog.

 

Pro-LFD Guy: Actually, a queue-style LFD system makes it possible to leave the central hub as you're no longer tied to a regional chat system in order to get a group.

 

As for ninja'ing, its a relatively painless procedure to add in a couple components to the loot roll system to ensure that tanks can't roll against casters for gear.

 

And accountability? Seriously? You're not accountable for your actions as it is. LFD doesn't destroy accountability, the internet does. Blacklists and servers policing themselves are largely myths and entirely anecdotal no matter how you slice it. For every instance you can claim of someone being successfully blacklisted, I can come with 20 wherein the offending party just laughed it off and went on playing the game with absolutely no repercussions for 'bad behavior'. Not to mention /ignore is a better tool for never having to group with people you don't like ever again.

 

Anti-LFD Guy 1: ...

 

Anti-LFD Guy 2: LFD sucks! It destroys communities!

 

Pro-LFD Guy: Seriously!?!?

So yeah, you'll pardon me if I take your assertion that 'you do it too!!1!' with a grain of salt.

Yeah, that sums it up pretty well indeed.

[DarthKhaos]

I've played an MMORPG to maturity and trust me group quests are only fun for a limited time as people are only leveling and doing them for a limited time. So new players and alt rollers get the shaft unless you think begging people to help you who are higher level is content access.

 

By the time this game matures a bit more, it'd be great if they had a working tool for them as well, even server side would work.

Group quests are optional. You can gain the right level to move onto the next planet and avoid every single group quest in the game you know. It's OPTIONAL.

[Klondeikbar]

Standing around in the fleet calling out "LF Healer Directive 7" every 1 minute for near 45 minutes sure is fun right?

 

Wait...wait...wait...are you implying that SWTOR is not a text based adventure game?

[Touchbass]

Uh how about no. It is a highly accurate comparison.

 

Please come up with something better than one line trolling in the future.

 

Comparing people who used to spend hours and hours together playing D&D together to people with busy lives playing a video game is a horrendous comparison. In fact it negates his point completely if you think about it. Why isn't he playing these great D&D experiences instead of a dilapidated experience in comparison? I can tell you why actually, cause he doesn't the fraking anymore and wants a system to find players for him instead.

[Touchbass]

I agree with you.

 

My point was more that they would be the bee's knees with the inclusion of a group finder tool.

 

/agree

 

I haven't had that expression since I watched the Princess and the Frog, are you from the from Lousianna per chance?

[savagepotato]

Comparing people who used to spend hours and hours together playing D&D together to people with busy lives playing a video game is a horrendous comparison. In fact it negates his point completely if you think about it. Why isn't he playing these great D&D experiences instead of a dilapidated experience in comparison? I can tell you why actually, cause he doesn't the fraking anymore and wants a system to find players for him instead.

 

On the contrary, we didn't spend hours and hours playing these games together, we spent less time playing them than many mmo players spend in game.

 

Furthermore, your time concerns are not my problem, why should they be? You want someone to care about your issues when you pointedly couldn't give two you know what's about their concerns.

Edited January 18, 2012 by savagepotato

[Touchbass]

And it will never work if people don't use it. It's kinda a cycle.

 

Answer me this if everyone all over the game that wants to find a group flags them self and sets their comment would it be easier to SEE who's looking for group and select a Tank/Healer/DPS from the list of people looking for your flashpoint? Yes or No?

 

You do know if you search for "LFG" you search the entire game not just the location you are on and places the first 100 it finds?

 

Yes, it'd be easier to see that there isn't a group available. Everyone flagging themselves won't change the leveling ratio's and lack of of players entirely in some roles on some servers. Not including Dual spec prevents healers like me from joining the healing queue and puts me right in the dps queue ... it's kinda sad as I don't like to DPS.

[ferroz]

Your little fantasy exchange there is more than just a little creative in painting yourself as the hero of the situation don't you think?

No, it's an extremely accurate portrayal of most of the arguments about lfd, both on these forums and ones elsewhere (say, in rift when that was being debated in it's forums)

 

Look at the evidence in front of you.

There isn't any. I invite you to put some there though.

 

Every step of the way in WoW that they tried these different evolution's of the dungeon finder things stayed the same and in some cases even got harder, such as the burning crusade.

irrelevant, even if it's true, which I don't agree. but since it's irrelevant, there's no point in arguing over it.

 

Yet, it wasn't until it went full auto cross server that things started to really deteriorate.

False. dungeons were faceroll easy long before xserver lfd went in; they went in with new dungeons that were actually a little challenging, at least compared to the pre-lfd stuff. So you've given a totally false statement.

 

You are arguing against something that people have gone out and experienced first hand.

Yes, because experience isn't really a valid argument, since peopled do (and you clearly have) misremember their experiences to conform to what they believe.

 

You want to blame lfd, so that's how you remember it.

 

Basically you are slapping them in the face in the process and calling them stupid, and what do you expect from that exactly?

I expect them to actually give some sort of rational counter argument. Or at least try to.

 

It has been stated several times by multiple people that it changes the focus of development.

I've seen it stated several times that bananas are normally blue. That doesn't make it true.

 

When the dungeon model becomes four random strangers thrown together who wish to be able to get it done in 15 minutes, the content must be de-tuned to support this.

As far as I'm aware, noone's asking for "be able to get it done in 15 minutes"; so this is nothing but a straw man argument.

 

Nor does this mean that the content has to be detuned to support it. It's quite possible to have hard content that can be done in 15 minutes...

 

It was in WoW, it would be here, there isn't even a shred of doubt about it.

Not really, dungeons in wow were already ridiculously easy. They were just made shorter, not easier.

 

It has been cited that when Cataclysm released and hard content was introduced again, the populace could not cope with it, and proceeded to complain and cancel subs in numbers that forced Blizzard to dumb it back down.

This isn't an argument against xserver lfd in any way.

 

Despite the fact it has been argued they didn't dumb it back down, this has always been a lie to support the pro-lfd position.

Whether it was changed or not is irrelevant to an xserver lfd tool discussion.

 

People observed the negatives of LFD style groups first hand.

No, they imagined them and looked back on thier other groups with rose tinted glasses on.

 

I see so many people come in and echo my observations it's stupid.

I agree that it's stupid, but for a very different reason. They're mindlessly parroting something without any real thought, and can't come up with a real valid argument to save their life.

 

 

Groups where the only thing ever said is gogogogo, ninjas that drop after the first boss and getting what they need with no possible repercussions.

These have nothing to do with lfd. I saw the behavior in EQ, back before there was a WoW. I saw the behavior in wow before there was an lfd. It's not increased by lfd at all.

 

Despite the fact that community policing has been argued to be a myth, this is again a lie perpetuated to support the pro-lfd position.

No, it's truth.

 

I have personally used community policing practices, it works very well thank you.

I'm sure you think it did, but the reality is that the person you're supposedly policing went on to get groups and guilds with no impact from your personal shunning. The only thing that happened is that you didn't personally get affected by that person again. That's no different than the xserser lfd.

 

All these things get said and they get trivialized and outright denied by pro-lfd proponents endlessly.

Well, that's because they're trivial, purely anecdotal, circular logic, straw man arguments, or otherwise outright false statements. If you came up with an actual valid argument you would have it trivialized or denied.

 

As I said above you are slapping people in the face and essentially calling them stupid, and expecting a rewarding discussion to stem from that. Good luck with your impossible mission.

Look, as long as you're going to lie and misrepresent the truth, I'm going to come in and point out how you're lying and misrepresenting the truth. If you see that as a slap in the face... well, there's not much I can do about that...

[Touchbass]

On the contrary, we didn't spend hours and hours playing these games together, we spent less time playing them than many mmo players spend in game.

 

Furthermore, your time concerns are not my problem, why should they be? You want someone to care about your gameplay when you pointedly couldn't give two you know what's about theirs.

 

I've played D&D with friends, it takes a good many hours per session to go anywhere, which becomes difficult once you grow up cause you have to include travel time, people working late, people being sick or on vacation and family life. That is why a good portion of D&D's players have moved on, time constraints!

 

Actually they are YOUR problem, my problem is an increasingly large portion of the playerbase. I'm having a blast now and will continue to subscribe for an additional month or 2 depending on how much fun I am having. However, I speak my mind to save other people from leaving as they are frustrated, already half my friends have left and I'm trying to keep the other half from doing the same. I understand their problems and am trying to be a voice to help the game.

 

If a significant chunk of the base leaves due to frustration it's going to cause castrophic effects on a lot of servers which in turn will ... you get the picture. Less money means less content patches and that good stuff. I can go on for hours if you'd like

[cjmilla]

Maybe you have 40 plus minuets to spam in trade to find a group but I don't.I have a thing called a job and a life and personally don't have the time or the patience to find a group when I maybe have 45 minuets of playtime total which would be enough time to run a quick FP if there was a DF implemented.For those of you who like to cry about how it would ruin the game nobody would force you to use it your still welcome to spam for groups on your server if you please that's your choice but please stop trying to tell me I should do it your way or I am complaining that a game coming out in 2012 does have a feature that makes PLAYING THE ACTUAL GAME easier.No I don't want WOW yes I want to be able to log on and run a flash point in a reasonable amount of time.Everyone who likes the way it is now dose not have a job or girl and lives in there moms basement.

[Touchbass]

/wave Forrez,

 

 

How goes your battle against ingorance today? Mines going well

[Touchbass]

Maybe you have 40 plus minuets to spam in trade to find a group but I don't.I have a thing called a job and a life and personally don't have the time or the patience to find a group when I maybe have 45 minuets of playtime total which would be enough time to run a quick FP if there was a DF implemented.For those of you who like to cry about how it would ruin the game nobody would force you to use it your still welcome to spam for groups on your server if you please that's your choice but please stop trying to tell me I should do it your way or I am complaining that a game coming out in 2012 does have a feature that makes PLAYING THE ACTUAL GAME easier.No I don't want WOW yes I want to be able to log on and run a flash point in a reasonable amount of time.Everyone who likes the way it is now dose not have a job or girl and lives in there moms basement.

 

This isn't written the most convincing or eloquently but this man speaks the truth.

[savagepotato]

I've played D&D with friends, it takes a good many hours per session to go anywhere, which becomes difficult once you grow up cause you have to include travel time, people working late, people being sick or on vacation and family life. That is why a good portion of D&D's players have moved on, time constraints!

 

Actually they are YOUR problem, my problem is an increasingly large portion of the playerbase. I'm having a blast now and will continue to subscribe for an additional month or 2 depending on how much fun I am having. However, I speak my mind to save other people from leaving as they are frustrated, already half my friends have left and I'm trying to keep the other half from doing the same. I understand their problems and am trying to be a voice to help the game.

 

If a significant chunk of the base leaves due to frustration it's going to cause castrophic effects on a lot of servers which in turn will ... you get the picture. Less money means less content patches and that good stuff. I can go on for hours if you'd like

 

I'm quite willing to endure a few server merges and a smaller population game if it means I don't have to play the all new and improved WoW 2.0 with 100% more star wars.

 

Seriously, leave now, I won't miss you, take your instant gratification kind with you, and the game can move in a direction that isn't focused on catering to your instant gratification wants.

 

You can go back to WoW and use the LFD tool you love there to your hearts content. Perfectly logical solution. The product you seek already exists. Stop trying to change the product I like into what you want.

Edited January 18, 2012 by savagepotato

[cjmilla]

And Savage potato why are you even on the forums you love the game so much man shouldn't you be playing it instead of trying to argue with those who are voicing there opinions about the game needing a dungeon finder?Seriously man you have way to much time on your hands if you your satisfied with the games features and are still on here trying to argue with people..Moms basement? I'm just putting how I feel up on there cause I want to see this game succeed and not be dead in a year and trust me if they don't implement something that makes queuing up for Flash Points which are a huge part of the game easier have fun with your free to play mmo.

[Pvtcarnage]

Comparing people who used to spend hours and hours together playing D&D together to people with busy lives playing a video game is a horrendous comparison. In fact it negates his point completely if you think about it. Why isn't he playing these great D&D experiences instead of a dilapidated experience in comparison? I can tell you why actually, cause he doesn't the fraking anymore and wants a system to find players for him instead.

 

Thank you, I work 60 or more hours a week, when I play I want to play not spend the whole night looking for a group.

[Touchbass]

I'm quite willing to endure a few server merges and a smaller population game if it means I don't have to play the all new and improved WoW 2.0 with 100% more star wars.

 

Seriously, leave now, I won't miss you, take your instant gratification kind with you, and the game can move in a direction that isn't focused on catering to your instant gratification wants.

 

You can go back to WoW and use the LFD tool you love there to your hearts content. Perfectly logical solution. The product you seek already exists. Stop trying to change the product I like into what you want.

 

 

So you'd rather destory the game for a lot of people then listen to a rationale argument? LFD will come to this game, it's just a matter of when. Bioware hasn't had time to develop it yet, not because it's trying to make you a special snowflake.

 

The force isn't strong in this one me thinks, I'm having a great time for the time being, why would I leave? You think i'd leave if they didn't put a LFD tool in? I'm not a child I'm just trying to help people find working solutions.

 

It's kinda ironic that your getting your panties in a knot over not changing a game that's concept is built on change, don't ya think? Lets keep our discussion going Savage but you need to be less hostile and present some facts or something. Read my major thread on page 6 and tell me what you think is wrong and we can work for them.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Touchbass

[Sendrel]

I'm quite willing to endure a few server merges and a smaller population game if it means I don't have to play the all new and improved WoW 2.0 with 100% more star wars.

 

Seriously, leave now, I won't miss you, take your instant gratification kind with you, and the game can move in a direction that isn't focused on catering to your instant gratification wants.

 

You can go back to WoW and use the LFD tool you love there to your hearts content. Perfectly logical solution. The product you seek already exists. Stop trying to change the product I like into what you want.

 

Given how much money was allegedly spent developing TOR, I really doubt that 'go back to WoW nub lulz!' is the answer the devs will arrive at.