Sith code only works for the absolute top of the society.

[Vladearg]

It seems that most Sith are mainly concerned about the middle lines of the code.

 

..., I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power,...

 

They don't follow their passions anymore but use them to gain power. It's all about power. Unlimeted power.

At least that seems to be the main concern of most of the Sith most of the time. Especially in the Empire.

 

Few Sith achieved the victory they longed for. And I would say (nearly) none of the great Sith Lords was ever "set free". Would you consider Palpatine as free? He was controlled by his hunger for power and his arrogance. And his duty was bound to the fate of his Empire. Would you consider Bane as free? Afaik he thought about him self as a servent to the goals of the Sith. He infested his whole life in an Apprentice who would kill him only that the Sith one day, in the far future, may rule the galaxy.

I actually agree with you here.. Thus my clarification of the word "victory".

When we apply sith teachings of the self to how to run an empire.... The latter can limit the former.

 

 

 

That may be true. But as a Sith not only the force is a tool for you, every person around you is a tool to. You try to exploit everyone for your needs and every other sith, especially your master, will try the same with you.

I'd rather be a response machine for the force then for a Sith Lord.

 

But the choice to rebell is always mine.

Your council, your order, your social norms... These are things which you freely allow to bind you and limit your growth.

 

There are many who rebell against the emperor in spirit. Under the empire, our personal views and philosophies are diverse. But in action... we are united under the emperor for a desire of revenge.

You in the repulblic are uncoordinated in action, but unified in spirit. Unified in spirit in the desire to subvert the self to serve "the good".

 

If you want to join the force so much, I can help you.

*ignights lightsaber*

Edited January 17, 2012 by Vladearg

[subrosian]

The idea of the Sith Code is that our chains exist in more than just the physical sense. It's not just that you are "enslaved" to your master, it's also that you are enslaved by your own fear, your doubts, your weakness. The actual chain of killing your master is the most obvious one, but on the path to doing so you are breaking other, far less obvious chains.

 

The harshness of Korriban and the brutality of the Sith Empire is necessary in order to forge new Sith. Anyone who has read Knight Errant is aware that great beauty exists within the Sith Empire, there are worlds that are absolute jewels, but the Sith don't choose them for raising new apprentices. Why? Because people raised in luxury will not become strong.

 

The Sith Code isn't just benefiting the Emperor, it benefits everyone who struggles to break chains. Through the struggle they gain power, through power they gain victory, and then, only then, are their chains broken. Without the struggle, without the acquisition of power, without victory, it would be irrelevant if they even had a master, they would still be bound by chains just as heavy: gluttony, sloth, weakness, fear.

[ahrimahn]

I always thought that was the point.

[Dionlight]

Very interesting topic.

 

I feel like only Light-sided Sith are the only ones who get the meaning behind the Sith code. Me being one of them, I see the code as a reminder to encourage you on your path to "freedom". Freedom being at peace with who you are ; that what you went through made you a better person. You don't have to kill everybody that fails you on you're way to victory, nor kill every person that challenges you. Also the force is your tool to smite your enemies with your passion and the stronger you are, the less likely you will fear or hold hate of anyone because they are beneath your level of experience.

 

 

Of course the majority of the Sith feel like abusing the code and think you have to kill just about anything that moves. That the only passion there is is rage and hate and the only way to gain victory and break your chains is to kill your master(s) until you are killed.

 

 

Now I like the Sith code because it allows someone to challenge themselves and prove their worth. No one likes to feel like a weak *** b*tch all the time. However the code suffers from infighting and lack of guidance. No Sith should be hated or killed for showing mercy or love to one another to make them a stronger and more restraint person; the Sith code allows it.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dionlight

[Kaydenloss]

Not really because a Sith's goal is to become the strongest thing that ever was. Your goal is to take out your master, not to stay under him till death.

 

this ^ also, the chains do not only apply on your sith master, but on galactic domination as well. This is why the Sith want to conquor.

 

The answer lies in the question.

 

It is the Sith's duty to become the absolute top of the society. Those that fail, are deemed unworthy Sith.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kaydenloss

[tausra]

Line 1: Peace causes stagnation? As my consular said very early on, peace is what allows civilizations to flourish. Warfare destroys the infrastructure required to do anything productive.

Civilizations flourish, and crumble, through peace. They say warfare is the mother of invention for a reason; challenge and conflict force one to improve upon peace time ideas. Even Jedi have the desire to improve, to do better and work harder, this is spiritual warfare, this is finding passion."Wisdom is not wisdom when it is derived from books alone." -Horace

 

Line 2: Blindly following one's passions without detachment and restraint is childlike. It's a desire for instant gratification and leads one to make mistakes. That is not strength; far from it.

By following passion blindly we make mistakes, we also discover which passions are helpful or hurtful. "Experience is the teacher of all things" -Julius Caesar

 

Line 3: How does following one's passions lead to self-mastery? It seems you're at cross-purposes here, because flailing about to satisfy wants isn't very controlled at all.

By experiencing these things, by chasing the things we desire a person discovers the full extent his desires and his limitations. Control comes from experience and understanding. A Sith chases his desires until he can control and master them; this is the point of the Code "A man who is master of himself can end a sorrow as easily as he can invent a pleasure. I don't want to be at the mercy of my emotions. I want to use them, to enjoy them, and to dominate them.” -Oscar Wilde

 

Line 4: As noted above, I think this chain of reasoning doesn't stand up to close examination. How does giving in to passion lead to power over one's self? A lot of the Sith we see have very little restraint.

A lot of Sith we see take the code too literally or don't realize there is a spiritual aspect to it. Not every Jedi exemplifies their Code, and not every Jedi realizes the spiritual or the physical aspects of that Code. As I said before the code builds on itself, finding and using passion as a tool to develop oneself leads to conquering your fears, and taking control of your life. Passion can be manipulated by others, but once you can control and master your passions then others cannot control you through them. "He who reigns within himself, and rules passions, desires, and fears, is more than a king." -John Milton

 

Line 5: Yeah, uh, it's Jedi who avoid attachment. That's the point of their Code.

It is not about breaking attachments, it's about refusing to be controlled by the world around you; about taking control of your life. Rather than let yourself be tied down by duty, or restrained by morality, a true Sith is beyond such concerns. By reaching this point of self-actualization nothing, not even yourself, is holding you back. “Before complaining that you are a slave to another, be sure that you are not a slave to self. Look within;...You will find there, perchance, slavish thoughts, slavish desires, and in your daily life and conduct slavish habits. Conquer these; cease to be a slave to self, and no man will have the power to enslave you.” -James Allen

 

Line 6: At this point I'm convinced that you actually decided to perform an "inside job" and discredit the Sith philosophy under the guise of justifying it, and thereby proving that the Jedi way is superior after all. Well done.

I disagree. Jedi philosophy argues wisdom through ignorance, the Sith argue wisdom through experience. It is the passions which have guided the Sith which allow him to become "free". It is through the Force and through self-mastery that complete freedom is gained. "Control your destiny or somebody else will." -Jack Welch

 

My counter argument above.

Edited January 17, 2012 by tausra

[Kellan]

While I agree with most of your statements and interpretation Tausra, the sith do not believe in quietly exiting life and becoming "one with the force". Nearly all Sith spirits (haven't documented and researched 100% so may not be entirely accurate) are bound to something akin to Exar Kun and the Massassi temple. They do believe that strength and power is what its all about, but the elimination of their weaknesses is key. You touched on that with your "attachments and entanglements". For this, I agree with you mind you, it is not so much being free of them and being serene as much as eliminating that weakness. A sith with a wife and two kids for example is a Sith with three targets so to speak.

 

As for the Jedi, I'd say they are far from perpetuating ignorance. The entire code seems to be shooting for more of a zen thing like perhaps Shaolin monks.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

Right in the code itself, Jedi strive to learn and better themselves and thus do not support ignorance. They seek knowledge and wisdom to better understand the force and the universe. Without knowledge and wisdom a Jedi could not connect with the force and thus lose out on that zen/enlightment.

 

For most cases the Jedi view the force as a living entity and a close friend whereas most Sith view it as a tool and a source of power. This is the biggest difference between the two, as both sides with their code try to exemplify this viewpoint while training themselves to become more powerful the entire time. When Jedi die they view it as returning to an old friend, but Sith view death as a loss of their power and so use that power to stave off death or avoid it entirely.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kellan

[tausra]

Oh I don't disagree, I was arguing the Sith Code. I find the attempt to divorce emotion from action to be supremely admirable, though lacking in many areas.

[Blimble]

Only the emperor can enjoy the "Through victory my chains are broken" part. Everyone else has to abide to their masters rule. Their chains are not as tight when they ascend in power but the rule of two means that each member of the Sith always has someone above them except the emperor himself.

 

So in reality their chains are never broken, the force never fully sets them free in the dark side of the force since the stronger you get the more enemies you get until you reach the absolute top. And if you remain weak you will be dominated or killed.

 

your wong

[Weezyfb]

Peace can lead to stagnation and it usually does. Conflict breeds competition, each side is striving to get better tech, better weapons, better medicine, hell even better and stronger architecture. Many of the advancements we see today would have never come about if not amplified by war. There would not have been an immediate need for it.

 

IRL look at the Cold war and Space race etc back then and look at the space program in the states and russia now.

 

 

So yes buildings are destroyed and people die but much is gained.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Weezyfb

[sttichthejedi]

Yes, and this is why Darth Bane fixed it with the rule of two.

 

lets not forget, darth bane was around 1000 years before the films. old republic is like 3000 years before the films. the only reference to the rule of 2 that exists in the game universe will be revans holocron, which is still hidden.

 

just thought id add my feedback there

[Iaius]

tausra: My response:

 

Line 1: Really? Than what of the Pax Romana? Centuries of peace led to what Gibbon dubbed "the happiest state of humanity." Soaring monuments, grand libraries, magnificent public works, rising health and literacy, and a standard of living unseen until the 20th century. What ended it? War. The Dark Ages are called such because the constant warfare plunged society into a state of complete collapse: the great classical cities were deserted for more fortified locations, or depopulated and abandoned in favor of rural estates where the greatly reduced population could be defended by local lords. Seeking war to create progress is not only madness, but a frightening sort of madness. If you're going to quote somebody, try not to quote a poet who praised his emperor for bringing peace and ending a century of war.

 

Line 2: You think acting blindly allows one to learn from mistakes? Someone who acts blindly doesn't really indicate that he has much in the way of the rationality or detachment necessary to learn those things. Caesar, whom you quote, was a pretty cold fish y'know.

 

Line 3: Really? When has a Sith ever opined about knowing himself? They seem to shake their heads at that sort of self-appraisal. They are creatures of instinct.

 

Line 4: Oh, I see. So we don't actually see a Sith that follows the Sith Code, but perhaps somewhere, out there, somebody does. Well, that's nice. How practical is a code that doesn't actually work? You say that some Jedi don't follow their code well either: but then the Jedi don't exactly sit down for that, do they? You've essentially conceded that the Sith Code doesn't actually work.

 

Line 5: How'd that self-actualization business work out for Raskolnikov?

 

Line 6: Jedi are ignorant? I'm not sure what's unclear about "there is no ignorance. . . " Can you find me some Sith who learn from their experiences and practice the Pythian admonition?

[fettpett]

tausra: My response:

 

Line 1: Really? Than what of the Pax Romana? Centuries of peace led to what Gibbon dubbed "the happiest state of humanity." Soaring monuments, grand libraries, magnificent public works, rising health and literacy, and a standard of living unseen until the 20th century. What ended it? War. The Dark Ages are called such because the constant warfare plunged society into a state of complete collapse: the great classical cities were deserted for more fortified locations, or depopulated and abandoned in favor of rural estates where the greatly reduced population could be defended by local lords. Seeking war to create progress is not only madness, but a frightening sort of madness. If you're going to quote somebody, try not to quote a poet who praised his emperor for bringing peace and ending a century of war.

 

sorry, no. The Roman Republic and later Empire were very much in some state of warfare at nearly every point in their history. Many of the small "wars" against the bordering "savage hordes". Some large scale conflicts like the Carthaginian Wars, and many internal Civil Wars. "Pax Romana" simply meant "Peace on the terms of Rome". Much like "Pax Britannia" and "Pax Americana" were/are "Peace on the terms of Britain/America" from the 18th-21st Centuries.

 

The Dark Ages weren't caused directly by constant warfare, but by stagnation within the Roman Empire, which lead to corruption, which lead to internal strife, the split of the Empire, decadence, and finally weakening of the political leadership and shifting power to the Catholic Chruch. (there is one point near the end where the Western Roman Empire had around 15 Emperors in a 2-3 year period). Once the Empire itself finally feel, the Church was the sole proprietor of knowledge. Factionalism split the Empire into, more or less the Countries of Europe that we have to day. It's really called the Dark Ages because this is a time when the collective knowledge base of what was left the Western Roman Empire was held in the hands of a very small group of people.

 

Going back to the game and Star Wars lore, up until Revan and Malak invaded the Republic it was very much stagnant, the Wars between their empire and the "true" Sith Empire, pushed the Republic out of Stagnation, the Jedi advanced in their teachings, Corruption is rooted out of the Republic, as seen on Ort Mandell. Technology is pushed forward, we see the introduction of many new techs at this point, including Bacta (though not in game atm).

[tausra]

tausra: My response:

 

Line 1: Really? Than what of the Pax Romana? Centuries of peace led to what Gibbon dubbed "the happiest state of humanity." Soaring monuments, grand libraries, magnificent public works, rising health and literacy, and a standard of living unseen until the 20th century. What ended it? War. The Dark Ages are called such because the constant warfare plunged society into a state of complete collapse: the great classical cities were deserted for more fortified locations, or depopulated and abandoned in favor of rural estates where the greatly reduced population could be defended by local lords. Seeking war to create progress is not only madness, but a frightening sort of madness. If you're going to quote somebody, try not to quote a poet who praised his emperor for bringing peace and ending a century of war.

 

Line 2: You think acting blindly allows one to learn from mistakes? Someone who acts blindly doesn't really indicate that he has much in the way of the rationality or detachment necessary to learn those things. Caesar, whom you quote, was a pretty cold fish y'know.

 

Line 3: Really? When has a Sith ever opined about knowing himself? They seem to shake their heads at that sort of self-appraisal. They are creatures of instinct.

 

Line 4: Oh, I see. So we don't actually see a Sith that follows the Sith Code, but perhaps somewhere, out there, somebody does. Well, that's nice. How practical is a code that doesn't actually work? You say that some Jedi don't follow their code well either: but then the Jedi don't exactly sit down for that, do they? You've essentially conceded that the Sith Code doesn't actually work.

 

Line 5: How'd that self-actualization business work out for Raskolnikov?

 

Line 6: Jedi are ignorant? I'm not sure what's unclear about "there is no ignorance. . . " Can you find me some Sith who learn from their experiences and practice the Pythian admonition?

 

Others have countered 1 to my satisfaction.

 

Caesar was cold, but not without emotion. All the Code requires is that a person learn from their mistakes and misdeeds. If a person acts, and can learn from the experience then he is partaking of step two.

 

3 and 4. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's never happened. We do not know the mind of every Sith, especially the powerful ones.

 

3. Knowing oneself can be described as simply understanding personal weaknesses and flaws; it doesn't have to be a 40 page diatribe about emotion, feelings and reflection.

 

4. No, I said not every Sith is capable of this level of reasoning, not that it was unattainable. Not every person who goes to college reads War and Peace but it doesn't mean that every college student can't read it.

 

5. Just because it did not work for one fictional character doesn't mean it can't work for any. I would argue that Darth Bane as an example of this philosophy working, for those intelligent enough to see it. Bane Redefined all of the Sith, why? Because he had fully actualized himself, had reached a state of being that was beyond the morality, beyond binding, and beyond the condemnation of lesser mortals. Darth Baras through trial, error, and growth was able to plant spies in all levels of the Republic and Jedi. Baras had broken the chains of ignorance, had moved beyond the limitations of himself and became the eyes and ears of the Empire.

 

I am sure the biting reply will be "But those are all upper level sith, so I win", to which I counter, no one has written a book about the life and times of Angl Marsavi: Sith Acolyte #22349. The sources available to pull information from do not include accounts of daily life of the average citizen, so all examples must be from the extraordinary.

 

The Imperial Agent and the Bounty Hunter are both proof of this view of the Code. Both classes rise through the ranks and must learn, must make mistakes, must chase their desires, and in the end become something beyond conventional morality and beyond contemporary definitions of legal and illegal. Both kill, both lie, and both openly defy the rules others must suffer under, because they have actualized their potential and themselves.

[Faharrah]

It's even simpler than that, at the core. Jedi seek to become blind followers of fate, and tools of the Force, and Sith seek to become masters of their own fate, and use the Force as a tool.

[BigOleT]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what everyone is debating over here. I'm going to assume it's an arguement over which school of thought is more powerful than the other? Better for civilization? There are obvious real historical events that can say one is better than the other, but I'm going to try and bring this back to the OP's ideas. Again I assume he believes (and with good reason) that the Jedi code is more "effective" than the code of the Sith.

 

I'll start by stating the codes so i can analyze them like so many before me.

 

Jedi Code:

 

There is no emotion; there is peace.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There is no death; there is the force.

 

This line of thinking takes years of experience learning to use the force.

 

1.) I find this to be the epitome of jedi-based theocracy. The seperation from emotion to gain peace seems nearly euphoric. This could only be reached through the force and only the very disciplined of jedi could ever reach this. This must be why jedi start their training at a very young age.

 

2.) Seperation of ignorance through knowledge, if knowledge is power, is the jedi's strength. The ability to know, gives the strength to defend their peace.

 

3.) If there's a flaw in the code it's that passion is somehow not an emotion. Perhaps it's put there because it is the strongest of the emotions. Passion (which we'll get to later) seems to be the greatest paranoia of individual jedi.

 

4.) This is the religious part of the code and ties all things together. A jedi flows with the force and uses the force as its ally to become a part of all things. The force is an extention of the jedi and they believe they eventually become it.

 

TL;DR: Jedi need discipline, get high on peace, are mindful of their passions and believe they do the force's will.

 

Sith Code:

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The force shall free me.

 

1.) Peace is a lie is somewhat odd and I believe is the inherent inner-destructive nature of the Sith. The passion, however, I think is a beautiful way of defining the Sith. They are always depicted as being violent, cold-blooded and cruel. They are. Though true Sith code honors passion, not neccessarily violence.

 

2.) Passion gives the Sith their strength. They rely on passion to manipulate what they want from the force. This in turn gives them easily-accessible, exploitations of the force given the primitive nature of passion.

 

3.) Through the strength of their ability to bend the force in ways this is the source of their power. I think this is why the Sith believe that their ideals are stronger. Because they use the force to do their will it seems to them to be the stronger and more "powerful" method. And it may be.

 

4.) Through their power potential they gain victory in the force. The Sith believe that they have overcome that which makes up the universe and are therefore superior beings. This may give insight into their almost "spoiled brat" demeanor. The power over all things will ultimatley give them nothing but victory according to the code.

 

5.) Through victory the chains are broken. The chains of what have been a large debate but I think it could be anything. The biggest problem I feel in this happens to be that they must have a master. The master is therefore a chain and must be broken in some form.

 

6.) The force shall set me free. This is the spirit of the Sith. The freedom to do as they please because of their complete control over everything around them.

 

TL;DR: read it, it was more interesting.

 

There are obvious flaws in both lines of thinking. Given that the Sith eventually have make sure there are only two at once makes it pretty apparent for them. Though their strength is somewhat easier to tap and I think would benefit the Jedi. Afterall that is how Luke defeated Vader (someone might say different but I still believe Vader was

stronger).

 

The Jedi prevail in their numbers because they rely on eachother as a whole. Though they become bound too strictly to their beliefs in certain things and sometimes meditate when it's better to ignite a lightsaber. They are also completely paranoid about emotions and specifically passion.

 

On the other hand Sith kill eachother out because of their power-blinded recklessness rather than thinking ahead. Notice the Darths that "become" are cunning and willing to wait for the right time to use their unbridled strength/freedom.

 

I love them both but they both have it wrong.

[ereler]

I'm too lazy to read whole thread and am sorry if anyone made this joke already...

 

Occupy Dromund Kass?

[tausra]

Rule of Two isn't in place yet. The point of the debate is whether or not the SIth Code is applicable for all levels of Sith Society, not just the ruling elite. I was clarifying the Sith code for people who found it short-sighted.