Thoughts on the Heat System

[Gerrard_Ennui]

My main is a modestly-geared BH arsenal merc. After a couple weeks at 50, raiding and spamming hardmodes, I have to say that the heat system just feels too restrictive. I do have 2/5 columi Eliminator set, so my tracer missile crit chance is around 48%. Crits with this ability will bleed 8 heat every 6 seconds, which helps.

 

Performing a standard tank-n-spank dps priority is ok in terms of heat management, but there are a couple issues:

 

- Some abilities are just too expensive. Tracer Missile, Fusion Missile, Death from Above and Sweeping Blasters come to mind.

 

- Heat's limitations become very apparent in encounters where a Bounty Hunter MUST deal with multiple events simultaneously. The more you try to do with your heat, the less you CAN do with it, creating a counter-intuitive system which punishes the player for using their secondary resource.

 

- Encounters with short enrage timers can also be problematic if the mechanics that allow you to dump heat dont proc.

 

- Variable regeneration creates situations where available heat isn't being used because using it now will prevent you from using it later.

 

- Its possible that the BH heat system (and the AI energy system as well) isn't balanced properly. Sorcerers, for example, have a static regen rate which can only increase, based on the advanced class and spec.

 

Considering these issues, there are a couple possible workarounds. Any or all of these suggestions could go a long way towards making the heat system much more flexible while still allowing heat management to be a primary concern for BH players. This is just what I thought of, I'm sure someone could come up with more creative solutions:

 

- Reduce the heat cost of all abilities and allow a BH to do more with their heat; a 15%-20% decrease would be wonderful.

 

- Implement static regen. A static regeneration system would no longer punish players for using their heat, like the current system does.

 

- Allow Rapid Shots to dump heat, instead of simply not generating any.

 

- Lower the cooldown of Vent Heat, to 45s or 60s.

 

- Increase the amount of head vented by the Terminal Velocity talent and/or eliminate the internal cooldown.

 

Now granted, I realize this is all based on anecdotal evidence about how the advanced class 'feels' and how heat regen 'seems', but thats all we have at the moment. All comments are welcome, thanks for reading.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Gerrard_Ennui

[poliander]

I am thinking that these posts are quite useless until we have more information.

When they implement damage stats, then we can talk about this.

Quite frankly, you are 50 and doing raids and such. I have not even got to 50. But heat is a mechanic and imo it is intended to prevent you from spamming the crap out of abilities with impunity.

 

Having said that, once again, these discussions will make sense once we know how we are doing. Pointless until then.

[Ruzena]

I am 50 pyro with full epic 2 pieces of set PVE gear and railshot heat leak spec, I must also tell that keeping heat at bay during tight enrage boss timers is very hard compared to other classes watching their bars.

 

Please don't tell me I am doing it wrong, I play most of the time with heat under 20% but simply it can happen that 5x flame burst won't trigger the heat sink railshot and you just used rapid shots several times to avoid overheating and let them sink heat.

 

It happens quite often that at the end of the fight you are overheated and all you can do is just spam rapid shots.

 

You can keep the rotation only on flame burst railshot proc nad rocket punch, which also vents heat and ocassional rapid shots if you go above 35% heat. But whenever you start using thermal detonator or refresh incendary mssile the heat jumps immediately to uncontrollable levels gimping the dps output.

[Ruzena]

I am thinking that these posts are quite useless until we have more information.

When they implement damage stats, then we can talk about this.

Quite frankly, you are 50 and doing raids and such. I have not even got to 50. But heat is a mechanic and imo it is intended to prevent you from spamming the crap out of abilities with impunity.

 

Having said that, once again, these discussions will make sense once we know how we are doing. Pointless until then.

 

Well I played beta over month before early access, I must admit I know what I am doing ;] Bad thing is the heat system restricts you from using some additional abilities.

[neonlyte]

dont spam your abilities and you will have enough heat to last the 2 minutes it takes to get vent heat back... i am level 50 arsenal spec and it works just fine for me

[basketofseals]

I am 50 pyro with full epic 2 pieces of set PVE gear and railshot heat leak spec, I must also tell that keeping heat at bay during tight enrage boss timers is very hard compared to other classes watching their bars.

 

Please don't tell me I am doing it wrong, I play most of the time with heat under 20% but simply it can happen that 5x flame burst won't trigger the heat sink railshot and you just used rapid shots several times to avoid overheating and let them sink heat.

 

It happens quite often that at the end of the fight you are overheated and all you can do is just spam rapid shots.

 

You can keep the rotation only on flame burst railshot proc nad rocket punch, which also vents heat and ocassional rapid shots if you go above 35% heat. But whenever you start using thermal detonator or refresh incendary mssile the heat jumps immediately to uncontrollable levels gimping the dps output.

 

While you are struggling with heat sometimes, do you feel your dps is really behind other classes?

[Methane]

mostly I'm just sad that heat transfer seems to work wrong in the Star Wars universe. The hotter something is, the faster it dissipates heat donsarnit!

[Ruzena]

While you are struggling with heat sometimes, do you feel your dps is really behind other classes?

 

Hmm not really, I think the burst can be insane, but I cannot compare that. Its only the feeling that to keep steady dps yu need to miss lot of other abilities or jsut slow a lot on thermal detonator and really watch the procs for rail shot, when I slow like that I feel its not really good.

 

On the other hand it makes the gameplay really not nobrain like. I'd like to see parser tho. I am not complaining I am just stating the thing that happens.

 

To keep steady dps with reasonable heat its just repeat basic combo burst, punch, railshot, sometime rapid shots, anything else used on its cooldown just ****s heat. Not really sure it is intended like that because i thought thermal detonator is steady arsenal for dpsing, not just burst cherry on the top that you use ocassionaly.

 

So I am not whining or something, I would jsut like to know if its intended and I have to rotate like that or I am gimping the dps of the party and I play it all wrong ;]

[Atsurak]

mostly I'm just sad that heat transfer seems to work wrong in the Star Wars universe. The hotter something is, the faster it dissipates heat donsarnit!

 

yeah, thats what i dont like too i guess its because the system has to be shared with the trooper?

ah well.

 

personally, my hope when making a bounty hunter, was that the heat system wouldnt be a straight up resource like this... i'd hoped it would be a balancing act - we'd use lasers and missiles and punches etc to generate heat, and then we'd use flamethrowers to disipate it, and your flamethrower attacks would do more damage if you were hotter, but you wouldnt stay hot for long because of the heat you vented by using them, and all the time your heat would be trying to 'steady' itself to a midpoint... but i guess thats a bit too different from any other resource model

[Gerrard_Ennui]

... heat is a mechanic and imo it is intended to prevent you from spamming the crap out of abilities with impunity...

Isnt the purpose of any essential resource like Heat, Energy, Force or Rage to facilitate engaging, dynamic, responsive and fluid combat? I don't know that resources are there to actively prevent the player from playing, that would be a counter-intuitive system much like we have with heat right now.

 

these discussions will make sense once we know how we are doing. Pointless until then.

Not true, any discussion where ideas are being exchanged is far from pointless.

 

keeping heat at bay during tight enrage boss timers is very hard compared to other classes watching their bars... It happens quite often that at the end of the fight you are overheated and all you can do is just spam rapid shots.

This is my experience also. On fights where you absolutely HAVE to crank out max dps for 3:00 or everyone dies, heat just strangles you. There arent enough passive heat dumps and our only active one has too long of a cooldown.

 

Fights where you have to switch targets frequently (and build tracer locks and heat signatures back up) are also tough on heat use. I'm not sure if every spec seems as tight as Arsenal does.

 

dont spam your abilities and you will have enough heat to last the 2 minutes it takes to get vent heat back... i am level 50 arsenal spec and it works just fine for me

On pretty much every hardmode flashpoint and operation boss fight you're dealing with an enrage timer that necessitates max DPS for the duration of the encounter. You don't really have the option of doing less damage than possible. In fact, I'd even argue that a system where it was preferable to do less damage than possible because of the crippling effects of variable regeneration is poorly designed in the first place.

 

personally, my hope when making a bounty hunter, was that the heat system wouldnt be a straight up resource like this... i'd hoped it would be a balancing act - we'd use lasers and missiles and punches etc to generate heat, and then we'd use flamethrowers to disipate it, and your flamethrower attacks would do more damage if you were hotter, but you wouldnt stay hot for long because of the heat you vented by using them, and all the time your heat would be trying to 'steady' itself to a midpoint... but i guess thats a bit too different from any other resource model

Oh, that would be an awesome idea. Some attacks generate heat, which you then use to fuel other attacks, which will dissipate that heat. Sounds interesting.

[Airees]

Tbh I actually find it broken in the complete opposite way. As Arsenal spec I've gotten so used to always being able to use special abilities. In PvE less than 10% of my attacks are Rapid Shots and in PvP I never use it. Compared to other classes this is just insanity. Afaik no other class/spec in the game can get away with playing like this, they are all much more dependant on weaving in "auto-attacks".

 

The problem with Arsenal isn't that it's hard to manage heat, it's too easy. You've just gotten used to the idea that you don't really need to throttle yourself that much.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Airees

[StevenStarkill]

If this is actually an issue that prevents BH from effectively competing DPS-wise on the end game, I know one solution they could use for Arsenal that would pretty much solve it for that spec.

 

"Barrage procs are now free and also cause Unload to dump 3 heat per sec."

 

Honestly though this might be OP, hard to know without putting it into practice. We can't have a system that let's us Tracer/Rail Shot/Unload with impunity and never have to Rapid Shot.

Edited January 16, 2012 by StevenStarkill

[Kesh_]

Do you not have the heat ventilation every time your shield is activated ability in the tank skill tree??? I know I never had problems with heat once i got that as I am a tank so I get hit a lot.

[nitthunt]

dont spam your abilities and you will have enough heat to last the 2 minutes it takes to get vent heat back... i am level 50 arsenal spec and it works just fine for me

 

agreed!! and im tank speced.

[ahwinters]

Honestly, resources are very easy in this game. I can fight indefinitely because my resources are constantly regenerating, and at a very rapid rate if I don't spam.

 

What ever happened to a set amount of mana that you had to win the fight with?

[Bludjinni]

Honestly, resources are very easy in this game. I can fight indefinitely because my resources are constantly regenerating, and at a very rapid rate if I don't spam.

 

What ever happened to a set amount of mana that you had to win the fight with?

 

Long gone, thankfully. I always hated that.

 

I came to this forum to read about opinions on heat. My BH is low level, 19 or so, but already I am 'struggling'. I don't like having to limit myself like my BH is forcing me to, and though I'm definitely not the best BH in game, the incredible ease at which I went through Hutta on my IA compared to my BH just kinda made me feel even more frustrated about my BH. I was wondering if this improves at all endgame, but it seems not.

 

Our tank is a powertech and he's now rerolling juggernaut for the exact same reasons I have for not being motivated to play my BH - heat is way too restricting. I'd rather have all my abilities a lot less powerful but also cost a lot less heat, or, like someone suggested, abilities that actually require heat to use, so you can balance heat-devouring and heat-generating abilities into interesting gameplay that is not as horribly restricting as it is now.

 

Furthermore, I feel Vent Heat at this point vents way too little. Maybe this improves later with talents, I don't know, but having an empty heat bar when I use this 2 minute cooldown really shouldn't be too much asked for. :<

 

I like the idea of heat, and I really like my BH toon herself, but heat just strangles every fun I can have with this class. Maybe this means it's not for me, but I think I would love it if it were less punishing than it is now to burn something down.

 

My main's an assassin, if this somehow is relevant.

[Argolith]

I believe that the OP and some others in this thread are jumping the gun. You say that you have to have max DPS for hardmodes to succeed and that heat is limiting you. I disagree and say that until you have hard numbers of what your dps and other's dps is, it might be that because of other classes lack on DPS it is causing you to have to push your heat moreso.

 

Until there are more comparative values out there, you can't argue against the mechanic.

[ReFlexionn]

imagine pvping vs a annihilation spec marauder + his healing companion...GG with your heat lol, you'll be force to do low dmg to stay down while he keeps getting heals from his bleeds and companion

[Yazule]

i think unload is the most under-rated skill we have, if you don't crit it is relatively heat neutral, it proc's a reset from TM often if specced right, if it crits it is a mini vent heat (3 crits and it pretty much IS a vent heat).

 

throw in a rapid shots here and there to fill in dps, use unload whenever it procs, never use heatseaker or explosive dart if you want to burn a long time.

 

When I am on my game and paying close attention i can get a consistantly high burn with (crit based) bursting mixed in. Single target, long fight, I dont think there is anyone except maybe sniper that can outperform us.

 

as far as AOE, well we can do it hard and well but it overheats us fast, sometimes best to burn them down one at a time if tank is not dropping like a stone.

 

while i sometimes have heat issues it is rare and usually my lazy fault, if there was never any heat issues why have it at all?

[ahwinters]

The two camps on this will probably never agree. Obviously if they did something to make heat management easier, BH would be stronger and I would be happy because this is my main. I just don't agree that it is a problem currently. I already win almost 100% of the time when I get into 1v1, consistently top the damage and kill charts in WZ, and easily heal flashpoints and ops.

 

If anything, sorcs should be the ones crying. Without fail at the end of a PvE encounter, they are completely OOM and just using the basic attack, while I am still healing/dpsing. Despite this, I know that sorcs out DPS me as evidenced by good sorcs in WZ. However this discussion started with PvE and when it comes to that, merc can definitely heal or DPS for alot longer than a sorc.

[Yazule]

The two camps on this will probably never agree. Obviously if they did something to make heat management easier, BH would be stronger and I would be happy because this is my main. I just don't agree that it is a problem currently. I already win almost 100% of the time when I get into 1v1, consistently top the damage and kill charts in WZ, and easily heal flashpoints and ops.

 

If anything, sorcs should be the ones crying. Without fail at the end of a PvE encounter, they are completely OOM and just using the basic attack, while I am still healing/dpsing. Despite this, I know that sorcs out DPS me as evidenced by good sorcs in WZ. However this discussion started with PvE and when it comes to that, merc can definitely heal or DPS for alot longer than a sorc.

 

their average dps is higher than yours but they cannot out burst us...

 

 

"I got somethin to say, its better to burn out than to fade away"

[Ruzena]

i think unload is the most under-rated skill we have, if you don't crit it is relatively heat neutral, it proc's a reset from TM often if specced right, if it crits it is a mini vent heat (3 crits and it pretty much IS a vent heat).

 

throw in a rapid shots here and there to fill in dps, use unload whenever it procs, never use heatseaker or explosive dart if you want to burn a long time.

 

When I am on my game and paying close attention i can get a consistantly high burn with (crit based) bursting mixed in. Single target, long fight, I dont think there is anyone except maybe sniper that can outperform us.

 

as far as AOE, well we can do it hard and well but it overheats us fast, sometimes best to burn them down one at a time if tank is not dropping like a stone.

 

while i sometimes have heat issues it is rare and usually my lazy fault, if there was never any heat issues why have it at all?

 

Well you are trying that you never have problem, but read my post again ffs, I never have any problem too unless i use my good attacks too, and being limited to nobrain 4 ability spam withut using special attacks

[ahwinters]

their average dps is higher than yours but they cannot out burst us...

 

 

"I got somethin to say, its better to burn out than to fade away"

 

Average DPS is higher until they run out of mana, and then they are pretty much screwed for the rest of the encounter in PvE

[TaintedSquirrel]

Horrible, I hate it. It's class-breaking for me due to 1 big problem: Heat regens slower the higher it goes. I believe Energy for IA's and Smugs suffers the same DR.

 

I understand keeping heat between the maximum regen values, 1 and 40 I believe it was. The problem is, I don't want to be punished for having to surge up to higher values in certain fights, specifically PvP when it's oftentimes necessary to do so.

 

Sometimes I hit max heat before I even realize it's possible, it feels like I blow 2 or 3 spells and then I have to vent it. It's frustrating, it feels like too much work, and for me I feel like the class is totally gimped because of it.

 

The worst part is, we don't even have damage meters to determine if all the hard work pays off. Are you really doing more damage, keeping your heat within max regen range, than some other faceroll class? Who knows. Maybe you are. Difficult to say.

 

Based on my experience the answer is no, apart from DFA the BH doesn't really have any stand-out spells that really make me say "Wow, all this heat management is paying off!" I feel like I'm doing the same damage as my alts, only with more work involved!

 

That's just my opinion. I'm not level 50, so it's probably worthless.

 

edit:

I should say, my main is a Sage (Sorc) and they have infinite force. Yeah, infinite. Yeah, always. There's no resource management involved within the hybird 0/18/23 spec.

 

None, zero, nada, zilch. Never. Not under any circumstances while maintaining some form of a DPS rotation; that includes off-healing, full bubbles, anything your heart desires except full heal spamming.

Edited January 16, 2012 by TaintedSquirrel

[Yazule]

Horrible, I hate it. It's class-breaking for me due to 1 big problem: Heat regens slower the higher it goes. I believe Energy for IA's and Smugs suffers the same DR.

 

I understand keeping heat between the maximum regen values, 1 and 40 I believe it was. The problem is, I don't want to be punished for having to surge up to higher values in certain fights, specifically PvP when it's oftentimes necessary to do so.

 

Sometimes I hit max heat before I even realize it's possible, it feels like I blow 2 or 3 spells and then I have to vent it. It's frustrating, it feels like too much work, and for me I feel like the class is totally gimped because of it.

 

The worst part is, we don't even have damage meters to determine if all the hard work pays off. Are you really doing more damage, keeping your heat within max regen range, than some other faceroll class? Who knows. Maybe you are. Difficult to say.

 

Based on my experience the answer is no, apart from DFA the BH doesn't really have any stand-out spells that really make me say "Wow, all this heat management is paying off!" I feel like I'm doing the same damage as my alts, only with more work involved!

 

 

 

That's just my opinion. I'm not level 50, so it's probably worthless.

 

actually you should try to overheat right as vent heat recycles, then throw an unload and start all over again. if you are not overheated the moment vent heat is available you lost some dps.