I'm an agent and want one nerf.

[Trux]

I'm an Operative, lvl50 on Hex Droid Server.

 

I'm fully champ geared other than legs and head, 500ish expertise and I can honestly admit I roll people under 50 with ease and in optimum conditions I easily dispatch lvl50s in equal gear.

 

 

So while I agree with some of the QQ about Op/Scoundrel being too strong, I think there is one single nerf that should be done for the health of this class and the pvp community.

 

The knockdown on Hidden Strike needs to go.

 

There should be a choice between CC and Damage, it should always be a concious decision by the player to either control or burst a target and not do both at once.

 

In the infamous WoW, Rogues had the choice of 3 openers:

- Cheap Shot (2sec stun, no dmg)

- Ambush (High dmg, no CC)

- Garrote (DoT, 2sec Silence)

 

In SWTOR, Ops/Scoundrels have one choice:

- Hidden Strike (High Dmg, 2sec knockdown and DoT(Acid blade))

 

Why do we have all three of the WoW rogues openers in a single attack? I don't want to be like Mercenaries that spam one button over and over to win, I'd like some level of finesse to the "rogue" archetype that is typically one of the highest skill ceiling classes in mmorpgs.

 

 

So as an appeal to Bioware from a geared lvl50 operative valour rank41, please consider the below change.

 

Step1 - Swap Acid Blade and Jarring Strike in the skill trees.

 

Step2 - Remove Acid blade as a skill, its a waste of keyboard real estate when its used on every Hidden strike and Backstab anyway.

 

Step3 - Change Acid blade to be a passive "Your hidden strike and Backstab abilities have a 50/100% chance to cause the target to be poisoned by your coated blades, dealing X dmg over Y seconds and increasing armour penetration(0/2)"

 

Step4 - Turn Jarring Strike into the new 31pt ability, "Strike the target with the base of your blade, knocking them to the ground for 2 secs and granting you two applications of Tactical Advantage. Requires stealth, must be behind the target"

 

 

 

What this accomplishes is create a choice of controlling or bursting an opponent and replacing the Acid blade keybind with Jarring strike keybind. Creating an ability that is fun to push and not something you wish you could macro into your other skill presses. Its also the ability to get 2 stacks of TA instantly giving your greater out of stealth presence by having more use of Lacerate available and evening out our "burst then nothing" rotation.

 

 

 

TLDR: Read it all, your comments are worthless otherwise.

 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Khrux

Edited January 15, 2012 by Trux

[Nightsorrow]

In SWTOR, Ops/Scoundrels have one choice:

- Hidden Strike (High Dmg, 2sec knockdown and DoT(Acid blade))

 

I havent play Operative at all, so i cant comment on your suggestions, though they do sound nice. And, I've gotten killed by a Scoundrel without getting one shot back in return a couple of times now. I just want to point out that the knockdown is actually ~4 seconds.

 

~1 sec animation (falling) + 2 sec knockdown + ~1 sec animation (getting up) ~ 4 seconds.

[Lashkor]

I havent play Operative at all, so i cant comment on your suggestions, though they do sound nice. And, I've gotten killed by a Scoundrel without getting one shot back in return a couple of times now. I just want to point out that the knockdown is actually ~4 seconds.

 

~1 sec animation (falling) + 2 sec knockdown + ~1 sec animation (getting up) ~ 4 seconds.

 

Np, that's baseline for stuns in this game.

 

Someone at Bioware thought that getting stunned for 8 seconds straight was a fun way to play SWToR PvP.

[Shortcake]

Np, that's baseline for stuns in this game.

 

Someone at Bioware thought that getting stunned for 8 seconds straight was a fun way to play SWToR PvP.

 

na, they just forgot how bad most players are

[Rivianchief]

na, they just forgot how bad most players are

 

Because a good player could have turned the tables after being stunned for 8 sec by an operative.... right

[Lashkor]

na, they just forgot how bad most players are

 

That's true, because losing control of your character for 8 seconds because your 2 minute CC break is on cooldown constitutes skill, how could I forget.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Lashkor

[Shortcake]

Because a good player could have turned the tables after being stunned for 8 sec by an operative.... right

 

a good player wouldnt whine about being pwnd by an operative, thats for sure.

[Lerdoc]

a good player wouldnt whine about being pwnd by an operative, thats for sure.

 

Nope. He would write a constructive wall of text explaining issues and people like you would still be in denial.

[Rivianchief]

a good player wouldnt whine about being pwnd by an operative, thats for sure.

 

Actually its the good players that cry most of the time. Because they usually win and realize that they get rofl-stomped to the ground by the OP class without being able to counteract.

 

A bad player will probably just accept it because he knows that he is not top notch and will probably think it was his fault.

 

Your logic is flawed if you really believe a good player won't whine. They are the worst of the worst in that area.

[Lashkor]

Actually its the good players that cry most of the time. Because they usually win and realize that they get rofl-stomped to the ground by the OP class without being able to counteract.

 

A bad player will probably just accept it because he knows that he is not top notch and will probably think it was his fault.

 

Your logic is flawed if you really believe a good player won't whine. They are the worst of the worst in that area.

 

Not to mention 'good players' have probably PvPed in numerous games and have a better idea of balance than most Devs do.

 

Getting killed because you have a chance to react isn't balanced. The biochem nerf should fix it.

[DarthHendo]

Nope. He would write a constructive wall of text explaining issues and people like you would still be in denial.

 

/Clap.

 

You sir, get a gold star for the day. Very good reply.

[Rivianchief]

Not to mention 'good players' have probably PvPed in numerous games and have a better idea of balance than most Devs do.

 

Getting killed because you have a chance to react isn't balanced. The biochem nerf should fix it.

 

In terms of OPs we will see if the biochem nerf is suffice. After all my experience against them it usually starts with me being on the ground and if I dont have my cc breaker up I am dead in 2 sec. If I use my cc breaker (and yea some still say thats not possible, but I don't know why i got stunned then, since it was 1v1) I just get another stun in the face. And even if I dont get stunned, I get faceraped in up to 5 sec.

 

Biochem is OP but I will wait and see if it really is just a Biochem issue. After all I doubt its balanced If I lose 50% of my hp in the first stun, instead of the usual (biochem enhanced) 100%

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[AdmiralOnasi]

Nope. He would write a constructive wall of text explaining issues and people like you would still be in denial.

 

/thread

[DarkeGBF]

While your plan to create some meaningful gameplay choice where before there was none is admirable, I'm not sure this is the way to go about it. The problem stems from the fact that all of our hard-hitting abilities are on a cooldown, or artificially on a cooldown.

 

You're obviously trying to create a parallel to the WoW Rogue's Ambush/Cheap Shot choice, but that class had no cooldown on its main damaging abilities (backstab/sinister strike), and was limited only by energy. With the Scoundrel/Operative, the choice to CC is one that holds significantly less appeal because we cant put out meaningful damage in our opener without using Shoot First. Sucker Punch just does nowhere near the amount of damage, and would need some base buffs to its damage to make the two stacks of Upper Hand a reasonable alternative to just bursting someone with our ambush-equivalent instead. With your change to Fletchette Round, we wouldn't have to re-apply it after the opener, so we'd still be able to get out two attacks before the enemy could even react. Not as bad as before, where I can easily land three within the knockdown, but still pretty strong. I don't know, hard to say without testing it in game, might actually work.

 

And of course, removing the Fletchette animation would be tantamount to treason. Loading that shell and then flipping the shotgun is too ******.

Edited January 15, 2012 by DarkeGBF

[Trux]

Biochem won't change much, the dmg and control from a specced Hidden Strike is too strong and needs to be changed.

 

Unlinking the knockdown and Damage components is the right move.

 

Lastly it would be nice if there was discussion on the topic, there are plenty of threads in this forum that are already used to bash each other like kids.

 

EDIT - Thank you Darke, good to hear some opinions from an actual Op/Scoundrel. Wish our acid blade animation was as cool as your Flechette round sounds

Edited January 15, 2012 by Trux

[DarkeGBF]

Biochem won't change much, the dmg and control from a specced Hidden Strike is too strong and needs to be changed.

 

Unlinking the knockdown and Damage components is the right move.

 

Lastly it would be nice if there was discussion on the topic, there are plenty of threads in this forum that are already used to bash each other like kids.

 

I usually reply to whiners asking for nerfs with something like "lol u mad?" because they have nothing to contribute to any discussion except cries for nerfs. But your idea has some merit, and you might be on the right track, so I replied thoughtfully.

[Damedius]

Biochem won't change much, the dmg and control from a specced Hidden Strike is too strong and needs to be changed.

 

Unlinking the knockdown and Damage components is the right move.

 

Lastly it would be nice if there was discussion on the topic, there are plenty of threads in this forum that are already used to bash each other like kids.

 

EDIT - Thank you Darke, good to hear some opinions from an actual Op/Scoundrel. Wish our acid blade animation was as cool as your Flechette round sounds

 

Sure. While your at it do the same to Sorcs/Sages. Get rid of the snare on Force Lighting/Sage Equivalent. They should have to choose between a snare and damage.

[BDutch]

Step1 - Swap Acid Blade and Jarring Strike in the skill trees.

 

Step2 - Remove Acid blade as a skill, its a waste of keyboard real estate when its used on every Hidden strike and Backstab anyway.

 

Step3 - Change Acid blade to be a passive "Your hidden strike and Backstab abilities have a 50/100% chance to cause the target to be poisoned by your coated blades, dealing X dmg over Y seconds(0/2)"

 

Step4 - Turn Jarring Strike into the new 31pt ability, "Strike the target with the base of your blade, knocking them to the ground for 2 secs and granting you two applications of Tactical Advantage. Requires stealth, must be behind the target"

 

I don't think these changes would be a good idea.

 

1) You're getting rid of the armor pen buff, which isn't going to help clothies so much as the classes that have less of a problem with us in end-game

2) If people did take the 31pt talent then you're simplifying combat on an already simple class. Jarring Strike cast once, less likely to need to shiv to keep TA up... although AB does feel kinda clunky, we really don't have that many buttons to push

3) A 2s stun opener shouldn't exactly fill a bar of resolve. So you'd still be able to use debilitate, which would make people be stunned for even longer in total, giving you time to sneak in a lacerate or two.

If the 2s stun opener did fill resolve/prevent other stuns then people would just skip it all together, use debilitate, and be able to pick up the instant cast regen from the healing tree (not looking up all the names since I'm a scoundrel).

 

No, changes definitely need to be made with a lot more in mind, especially to the bleed tree. We'll see how the consumable nerf pans out, and I'm positive there will be more tweaking to come, but IMO this is not the way to go.

[Jesmcalli]

Ops/Scoundrels don't make any sense in terms of archtype anyways. To use WoW parlance, it's like they took Hunters, got rid of Beast Mastery and Survival, gave them a Resto tree and a melee stealth tree better than anything that a rogue or feral druid could hope for.

 

Meanwhile, the stealthy, lightly armored class ( Shadow/Assassin) has no heals, can't approach the burst an Op can, and on top of it, Ops/Scoundrels can easily spot them in stealth. Ops/Scoundrels have pretty much all the same skills/CDs as Infiltration/Deception spec'd Shadows/Assassins, but with better armor, heals and much better damage. Why they even bothered with Shadows/Assassins as an entire class is beyond me.

[biowareftw]

I'm an Operative, lvl50 on Hex Droid Server.

 

I'm fully champ geared other than legs and head, 500ish expertise and I can honestly admit I roll people under 50 with ease and in optimum conditions I easily dispatch lvl50s in equal gear.

 

 

So while I agree with some of the QQ about Op/Scoundrel being too strong, I think there is one single nerf that should be done for the health of this class and the pvp community.

 

The knockdown on Hidden Strike needs to go.

 

There should be a choice between CC and Damage, it should always be a concious decision by the player to either control or burst a target and not do both at once.

 

In the infamous WoW, Rogues had the choice of 3 openers:

- Cheap Shot (2sec stun, no dmg)

- Ambush (High dmg, no CC)

- Garrote (DoT, 2sec Silence)

 

In SWTOR, Ops/Scoundrels have one choice:

- Hidden Strike (High Dmg, 2sec knockdown and DoT(Acid blade))

 

Why do we have all three of the WoW rogues openers in a single attack? I don't want to be like Mercenaries that spam one button over and over to win, I'd like some level of finesse to the "rogue" archetype that is typically one of the highest skill ceiling classes in mmorpgs.

 

 

So as an appeal to Bioware from a geared lvl50 operative valour rank41, please consider the below change.

 

Step1 - Swap Acid Blade and Jarring Strike in the skill trees.

 

Step2 - Remove Acid blade as a skill, its a waste of keyboard real estate when its used on every Hidden strike and Backstab anyway.

 

Step3 - Change Acid blade to be a passive "Your hidden strike and Backstab abilities have a 50/100% chance to cause the target to be poisoned by your coated blades, dealing X dmg over Y seconds(0/2)"

 

Step4 - Turn Jarring Strike into the new 31pt ability, "Strike the target with the base of your blade, knocking them to the ground for 2 secs and granting you two applications of Tactical Advantage. Requires stealth, must be behind the target"

 

 

 

What this accomplishes is create a choice of controlling or bursting an opponent and replacing the Acid blade keybind with Jarring strike keybind. Creating an ability that is fun to push and not something you wish you could macro into your other skill presses. Its also the ability to get 2 stacks of TA instantly giving your greater out of stealth presence by having more use of Lacerate available and evening out our "burst then nothing" rotation.

 

 

 

TLDR: Read it all, your comments are worthless otherwise.

 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Khrux

 

Sure thing. I agree with this as soon as they remove 30 yard ranged stuns from the other stealth melee class, that also has a guard/taunt, that also has a knockdown, does more dmg out of stealth then a Operative/scoundrel, has better survival, and has a gap closer. Oh yeah they also INSTAGIB PLAYERS (a 15,000-20,000 dmg opener on multiple people) by stealthing up to them and throwing them off the bridge in voidstar, or stunning them inside a fire pit, or knocking them back into a firepit. Where does that dmg show up on warzone dmg meters? It doesn't and when you add in the fact that assassins/shadows do the exact same warzone dmg as a op/scoundrel? Yeah...

 

Also as soon as they remove the ability for ranged to stack stims/buffs and kill people from range before melee can even reach their target.

 

I kill people as fast on any ranged as I do on my scoundrel. The difference? I stun them from RANGED and kill them from RANGED.

 

When you see the GOOD assassins/shadows telling you they destroy op's/scoundrels one on one? They aren't lying. If you can't you are simply bad. You are 100 percent their anticlass and hard counter when equally geared. If 3 vs 3 arena was in this game the only op/scoundrel you would see is a healer.

 

Why? They stealth CC fills a resolve bar, their opener fills a resolve bar, which makes them horrible on interupts/CC after opening. Every single 3 v3 team would have an assassin/shadow and all the people who rolled the FOTM melee class would STILL point at op's/scoundrels and complain that THEY were the ones that are OP and that they are "perfectly balanced".

 

LOL at the OP with his Inquisitor avatar talking about wanting his low level alt operative nerfed, when he prob does more warzone dmg on his Sorc and can't handle playing melee in this game.

 

Such a joke. They need to have YOUR REAL CHARACTERS on this forum (like WoW) so you can see just how full of it these people are.

Edited January 15, 2012 by biowareftw

[Tastetest]

Can people stop banging on about this please, yes it’s a pain in the a55 yes it IS over powered but having post after post is pointless and makes the forums hard to navigate, well hard for me(I’m old).

 

If Bio-ware truly want to fix the class then replace the stun with a slow, something that lasts long enough for the operative to get back to the target when they are cc'ed themselves. I have not played the class enough to know if the stun is a necessary component but i have played the class, and can see, as can anyone with half a head that the class has lots of inherent damage; hell at lvl 12 i was doing stupid amounts of damage to lvl 50s in standard gear( i have one of every class).

 

Removing abilities, especially core ones could break the class the stun needs to be changed to something that keeps the target in range but lets the target respond if anything

Edited January 15, 2012 by Tastetest

[carbocat]

I'm an Operative, lvl50 on Hex Droid Server.

 

I'm fully champ geared other than legs and head, 500ish expertise and I can honestly admit I roll people under 50 with ease and in optimum conditions I easily dispatch lvl50s in equal gear.

 

 

So while I agree with some of the QQ about Op/Scoundrel being too strong, I think there is one single nerf that should be done for the health of this class and the pvp community.

 

The knockdown on Hidden Strike needs to go.

 

There should be a choice between CC and Damage, it should always be a concious decision by the player to either control or burst a target and not do both at once.

 

In the infamous WoW, Rogues had the choice of 3 openers:

- Cheap Shot (2sec stun, no dmg)

- Ambush (High dmg, no CC)

- Garrote (DoT, 2sec Silence)

 

In SWTOR, Ops/Scoundrels have one choice:

- Hidden Strike (High Dmg, 2sec knockdown and DoT(Acid blade))

 

Why do we have all three of the WoW rogues openers in a single attack? I don't want to be like Mercenaries that spam one button over and over to win, I'd like some level of finesse to the "rogue" archetype that is typically one of the highest skill ceiling classes in mmorpgs.

 

 

So as an appeal to Bioware from a geared lvl50 operative valour rank41, please consider the below change.

 

Step1 - Swap Acid Blade and Jarring Strike in the skill trees.

 

Step2 - Remove Acid blade as a skill, its a waste of keyboard real estate when its used on every Hidden strike and Backstab anyway.

 

Step3 - Change Acid blade to be a passive "Your hidden strike and Backstab abilities have a 50/100% chance to cause the target to be poisoned by your coated blades, dealing X dmg over Y seconds(0/2)"

 

Step4 - Turn Jarring Strike into the new 31pt ability, "Strike the target with the base of your blade, knocking them to the ground for 2 secs and granting you two applications of Tactical Advantage. Requires stealth, must be behind the target"

 

 

 

What this accomplishes is create a choice of controlling or bursting an opponent and replacing the Acid blade keybind with Jarring strike keybind. Creating an ability that is fun to push and not something you wish you could macro into your other skill presses. Its also the ability to get 2 stacks of TA instantly giving your greater out of stealth presence by having more use of Lacerate available and evening out our "burst then nothing" rotation.

 

 

 

TLDR: Read it all, your comments are worthless otherwise.

 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Khrux

 

No.

 

Then knock down from assassin need to go to.

[BDutch]

Ops/Scoundrels don't make any sense in terms of archtype anyways. To use WoW parlance, it's like they took Hunters, got rid of Beast Mastery and Survival, gave them a Resto tree and a melee stealth tree better than anything that a rogue or feral druid could hope for.

 

What exactly about a scoundrel reminds you of a marksmanship hunter? If a scoundrel can heal in a way that will frustrate you then they are not playing the spec that made them infamous on these boards. You can whine about their spec options/versatility, but it doesn't factor into the point of this thread.

 

I do agree that stealth is an issue, but IMO it is for all SWTOR stealth classes. All stealth classes can cleanse dots, including bleeds, and provide enough aoe immunity to escape most situations on a relatively short cooldown. There's nothing worse than having a stealther get to pick/choose his fight to get you with your pants down, AND most likely be able to disengage without any consequence if it goes wrong.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying that ops/scoundrels shouldn't be nerfed in some ways, but it should be done the best way possible. Other parts of the class that have nothing to do with any of this forum QQ really need to be buffed.

[biowareftw]

Can people stop banging on about this please, yes it’s a pain in the *** yes it IS over powered but having post after post is pointless and makes the forums hard to navigate, well hard for me(I’m old).

 

If you or Bio-ware truly want to fix the class then replace the stun with a slow, something that lasts long enough for the operative to get back to the target when they are cc'ed themselves. I have not played the class enough to know if the stun is a necessary component but i have played the class, and can see, as can anyone with half a head that the class has lots of inherent damage; hell at lvl 12 i was doing stupid amounts of damage to lvl 50s in standard gear( i have one of every class).

 

Removing abilities, especially core ones could break the class the stun needs to be changed to something that keeps the target in range but lets the target respond if anything

 

If anything was a fail design move it was instant cast ranged stuns with no setup (even frost mages in wow had to cast a spell, get a proc before a stun).

 

Why aren't op's/scoundrels complaining about it non stop? We aren't 10 year olds who are bad at this game and make nerf threads every time we are stunned and gibbed from range by a BH/Commando, Sage/SI.

 

If we have no trinket? We are dead. Period. Yet ranged use the same stupid argument that they can't live through an op/scoundrel without a trinket.

 

Guess what... without a trinket and guards/taunts/heals? Noone can live through ANY dps spec buff stacked burst on a stun.

 

This is called reality though and it is much easier to stick your hands in your ears and go LA LA LA NERF YOU.

Edited January 15, 2012 by biowareftw

[Skych]

The removal of the knockdown portion would not change a thing,

I would still open with hidden strike followed by debilitate (4 sec stun) followed by the rest of the normal rotation.

It would (in optimal conditions) kill any poorly geared lvl 50 during the stun and the complains would continue.