Stop complaining about EXPERTISE

[Toranna]

Sure, the leveling guys will be on the safe side, however, they better buy a pot Vaseline because the full champ / bm geared 50s already wait for them with a fat smile in their face to cream them good.

 

It is not jsut the lvl uppers. I have been 50 for 10 days now and I normally run 5-10 Warzones a day and complete all my dailies. I have gone through now 11 bags and not one piece of champ gear.

 

If they want to keep the system as they have it today, they need to implement a item level type system for queing, and people get paired depending on their item level.

 

If they leave it this way it is not just the lvlers but the unluckys who get left behind. And for most dealing with slanted server PoPs already maeks it hard enough.

[Rivianchief]

That sounds exactly like someone with no skill and plenty of free time in their life would say.

 

That is your argument really? With that sentence you think you have completely dismantled my rather valid point?

Seems like a waste talking to you. Do you know how much time I have? Do you know how good I am? Only because I don't need to brag with my supposedly existing 4x Gladiator title (which really means a lot btw!!!111) doesn't mean I couldn't be able to crush you in any pvp environment given the chance.

 

You just assume because you have no better answer.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Rivianchief

[SandTrout]

MMORPG's are all about gear progression. You remove that, you remove most of the playerbase. I think that's one common mistake in gamers nowdays, trying to relate a MMORPG with, let's say a FPS, or an Action game.

No, MMOs are all about playing with large numbers of other players. That is the definition.

 

The progression treadmill is a way to addict players rather than making a good game, and if that is truly all that TOR is, I won't be sticking around. I'm almost upset that I got pulled into it in the first place by my friends.

 

This is not good game design, no matter how addictive it is to some people, and the fact that this is brought up as a way to defend a developer lowers my faith in humanity.

Edited January 16, 2012 by SandTrout

[Coinkee]

Right and in a game with its long term life based in alt replayability and progressive storyline content, there will always be fresh 50s and someone will always in on the losing end of a fight simply cause they're coming in with the best PvE gear they can get, but its just not good enough. You seem to have this mindset that people that are just coming into the 50 bracket deserve to be farmed and because you got your gear before them you deserve to be the farmer. You know exactly how hilariously not challenging it is to take down a level 50 that has no expertise, you've done it, and you know how easy it is unless you start dealing with a 2 or 3 vs 1 situation, but yet you defend it....as if its some kind of axiom of online gaming that is immutable and should never be challenged. Are you ready to be a fresh 50 some day on an alt? I suspect no. Your position and philosophical methodology seems to suggest you intended to stay on the "Farmer" side of the fence, rather than join the "fresh 50s" in the farming pen at any point.

 

Well thats fine I think they need to make a PvE Stat then called "Resolution" which is only on level 50 PvE gear and you can't do Eternity Vault or any new operations without the full set of it because without "Resolution" you simply cannot withstand the design-for-failure AoE's that are made to trump anyone that isn't above a certain HP and Resolution level so people in PvE or PvP gear can't do that part of the game at all without having spent their time grinding for a set of gear that they only had to grind for so they could grind for more gear in EV and all new operations.

 

Lets close the doors on the entire end game. Lets make a bunch of level 50 crafting schematics but you can't get or use any of them unless you've created a Mastercraft schematic for every base schematic in your trade skill.

 

Lets add new level 50 mounts that you can only ride if you've done EV 1000 times and run hard mode BT/Esseles COMPLETELY NAKED while SOLO.

 

I totally get where you're coming from man, MMO's just aren't fun unless they're built into gated communities where people can spend their virtual lives looking down their noses at everyone else that hasn't achieved such easy to achieve feats like soloing the Infernal One with your keyboard and mouse unplugged.

 

I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you're right TOR needs more Korea in it, theres just not enough Korea in it already so lets segregate everything and make everyone have to grind for everything post 50.

 

In fact I think we should introduce a travel speed reduction at 50, and you can only increase your travel speed by doing space combat missions and you have to complete them all, every day, daily to have enough fuel to pilot your space ship around that day! I mean seriously fuel costing credits? WHAT IS WITH THE EZMODE HERE?

 

:rolleyes:

 

You can't go into a raid as a fresh 50.. You have to grind out the gear or 'Resolution" as you so put a title on it..

 

I already stated they needed a starter pvp set thats easily attaintable to ease a fresh 50 into pvp.

 

You also can't make the top end purple crafts without doing hardmodes to get the mat for them.

 

Don't pick and choose your arguements against mine. It isn't working for you.

 

I get it. You want everything to stay stale as soon as you hit 50. You want your alt to have the exact same attributes/abilities/stats/gear that your main that you spent say 100 hours on playing at lvl 50 has. In fact lvling to lvl 2 in your Utopian MMO is a nono and counter productive.

 

You are being unrealistic.

 

There is a linear path for every part of every single MMO starting from char creation. Deal with it or unsub.

[Ravashakk]

This whole thing is funny. Even from a lore perspective, the naysayers wouldn't fit.

 

-Luke becomes a padawan and immediately challenges the emperor/vader. Luke should have a fair shot at beating these guys, because all the time the latter have put into studying the force etc should not be a factor in the outcome if they fought.

 

You should have to work towards being competitive in addition to just knowing your class. Better gear accomplishes this.

 

Now the whole "PVP vs PVE" gear discussion is just as entertaining. You need some sort of difference between the two for a few reasons.

1. If PVP gear is easier to get (I don't personally know this yet) then it shouldn't be able to be on par with PVE gear when it comes to PVE. People that concentrate on PVE should be better at it (with better gear) than the PVP crowd trying to join in with their PVP gear.

 

2. Expertise (in w/e form it ends up being if they change it) needs to be there. If there wasn't this mechanic, then any top raiders with better PVE gear will have a huge advantage over non PVEers....in a PVP setting. Let's face it, not everyone can PVE (schedules and such), but anyone can PVP whenever they want because it doesn't require coordination with other people to do.

[Toranna]

Just becaue you PvPed for 100 hours does not mean you should insta gib someone who PvEed. I am not saying you should not win or have advantage, but having "PvP Stat" (especially one as broken as Expertise) is the lazy way out of developing. So many free MMOs out ther have came up with more ways to deal with this, that could be modeled to fit a PTP game.

[Ashes_Arizona]

No, MMOs are all about playing with large numbers of other players. That is the definition.

 

The progression treadmill is a way to addict players rather than making a good game, and if that is truly all that TOR is, I won't be sticking around. I'm almost upset that I got pulled into it in the first place by my friends.

 

This is not good game design, no matter how addictive it is to some people.

 

+1, well more like +1000.

 

Gear progression didn't even exist in MMO's in its current state until Everquest released its class craftable armors, which was a great idea, but then after that started opening the "Planes" which did class gear drops.

 

MMO's prior to that were more about acquisition of the best things possible but not in a gated manner. In UO for example you could literally BUY the best set of dex monkey gear there was, without all this grinding through dungeons trash, then spend your day wandering around killing people cause they couldn't hit you or avoid your attacks. Not saying that was super good as an example of game design cause it actually highlights an old UO balance issue, but deal is, the whole idea of having to "grind" for gear at all in MMO's is not good game design, its built around the concepts of psychological addiction. And developers purposefully exploit this design schema with the intent of creating a psychological addiction of almost Pavlovian standards in their user base, so their user base stays subscribed and continues to shell out cash for subs and expansions.

 

God forbid a company try to make money right? I know, it sounds like I'm some kind of flaming hippy and I'm not, but I think you'd probably have an issue with me if I ran an ice cream shop and your kids were addicted to my crap because I willfully put crack cocaine in the mix when I made my ice cream. And thats sorta what MMO developers do these days.

 

They know they're exploiting a psychological addiction that many online gamers are susceptible to. And thus they don't do anything different because it makes money.

 

R.J. Reynolds doesn't have to start trying to sell cabbage cigarettes cause people are addicted to tobacco, same goes for MMO designers.

 

They forgot that Massively Multiplayer means I get to play the game with lots of people and enjoy an experience that requires a lot of other players to fully enjoy the length and breadth of the content, and they're more focused on making content they can design to singularly attempt to turn each individual customer into an addict. WoW already showed how to do that, so people keep pushing the same junk and hoping for the same returns.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona

[Freewareplayer]

Just becaue you PvPed for 100 hours does not mean you should insta gib someone who PvEed. I am not saying you should not win or have advantage, but having "PvP Stat" (especially one as broken as Expertise) is the lazy way out of developing. So many free MMOs out ther have came up with more ways to deal with this, that could be modeled to fit a PTP game.

 

Yes what a great argument. Lets remove LEVELING too, cause the argument applies there too.

 

Just becaue you leveled for 100 hours does not mean you should insta gib someone who did not level. I am not saying you should not win or have advantage, but having Levels is the lazy way out of developing. So many free MMOs out ther have came up with more ways to deal with this, that could be modeled to fit a PTP game.

 

This is by far the *******st argumentation to criticise an mmoRPG i ever heard. Go play Leage of Legends.

[Prendoza]

Expertise isn't the problem...the problem is that gear shouldn't have a role in determining the outcome of a PvP match. Why should you have a competetive advantage over me because you've played longer. The most talented player should be the winner in any match, not the one who spent the most time grinding gear.

 

yeah thats right so lets all PVP with our character in his/her underwear gear should not be allowed, or weapons come to that only hair pulling and spitting allowed. PMSL

[SandTrout]

yeah thats right so lets all PVP with our character in his/her underwear gear should not be allowed, or weapons come to that only hair pulling and spitting allowed. PMSL

 

Sounds like fun, if we could just have it arranged!

[Eranus]

The thing I dislike about the current system is quite simple: Healing. The problem lies here: You take x % less damage and do y% more damage. That cancels each other out and net values 0 - if you had the same gear.

However than there is healing. YOu get the same bonus % on healing aswell which means:

I face Random Sage / Sorcerer with 10% Expertise, he has 10% expertise aswell.

I do 10% more damage and take 10% less damage - can't heal myself as a shadow.

He does 10 % more damage, takes 10% less damage (cancels me out) but has 10% more healing which comes out on top of the equal net value between the damage and defense.

 

Result: Killing a healer is a pain in the arse.

[Coinkee]

+1, well more like +1000.

 

Gear progression didn't even exist in MMO's in its current state until Everquest released its class craftable armors, which was a great idea, but then after that started opening the "Planes" which did class gear drops.

 

MMO's prior to that were more about acquisition of the best things possible but not in a gated manner. In UO for example you could literally BUY the best set of dex monkey gear there was, without all this grinding through dungeons trash, then spend your day wandering around killing people cause they couldn't hit you or avoid your attacks. Not saying that was super good as an example of game design cause it actually highlights an old UO balance issue, but deal is, the whole idea of having to "grind" for gear at all in MMO's is not good game design, its built around the concepts of psychological addiction. And developers purposefully exploit this design schema with the intent of creating a psychological addiction of almost Pavlovian standards in their user base, so their user base stays subscribed and continues to shell out cash for subs and expansions.

 

God forbid a company try to make money right? I know, it sounds like I'm some kind of flaming hippy and I'm not, but I think you'd probably have an issue with me if I ran an ice cream shop and your kids were addicted to my crap because I willfully put crack cocaine in the mix when I made my ice cream. And thats sorta what MMO developers do these days.

 

They know they're exploiting a psychological addiction that many online gamers are susceptible to. And thus they don't do anything different because it makes money.

 

R.J. Reynolds doesn't have to start trying to sell cabbage cigarettes cause people are addicted to tobacco, same goes for MMO designers.

 

They forgot that Massively Multiplayer means I get to play the game with lots of people and enjoy an experience that requires a lot of other players to fully enjoy the length and breadth of the content, and they're more focused on making content they can design to singularly attempt to turn each individual customer into an addict. WoW already showed how to do that, so people keep pushing the same junk and hoping for the same returns.

 

And with this i totally agree. Which is why i also say. Such is the life of an MMO. Deal with it or don't play them.

 

We are all just hamsters in the wheel. KWe keep turning and turning hoping to find the door to something in the past that just isn't there anymore.

 

Our youth didn't grow up on the games we did. Tell a 16 yr old how UO used to be and they'll think you went senile. How can that be FUN?!?!!!111! is all they'll think. Which in turn makes it non productive for companies to produce as the technology has also changed and it costs more to make these games now. Without the subs, you fail.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Coinkee

[Ashes_Arizona]

You can't go into a raid as a fresh 50.. You have to grind out the gear or 'Resolution" as you so put a title on it..

 

I already stated they needed a starter pvp set thats easily attaintable to ease a fresh 50 into pvp.

 

You also can't make the top end purple crafts without doing hardmodes to get the mat for them.

 

Don't pick and choose your arguements against mine. It isn't working for you.

 

I get it. You want everything to stay stale as soon as you hit 50. You want your alt to have the exact same attributes/abilities/stats/gear that your main that you spent say 100 hours on playing at lvl 50 has. In fact lvling to lvl 2 in your Utopian MMO is a nono and counter productive.

 

You are being unrealistic.

 

There is a linear path for every part of every single MMO starting from char creation. Deal with it or unsub.

 

You still didn't answer the question. Any plans on joining the rest of the meat in the grinder on a "fresh 50" yourself? Probably not.

 

And the very last sentence of your response says so many wrong things about the MMO industry that its really no surprise at all why we can't seem to advance the concept of it, because you and people like you have literally drank the kool-aid some developers tend to push around like "well theres only so many ways you can design an RPG blah blah blah". Then theres people like me and Notch and even Ragnar Tornquist who go...what? Thats silly. Dunno about you but Minecraft has to be the most ridiculously boring RPG ever, I mean...wheres the progression? Why can everyone that digs down deep enough get diamonds? Only I should get diamonds cause I've been playing Minecraft since 0.1.2 beta!

[Coinkee]

You still didn't answer the question. Any plans on joining the rest of the meat in the grinder on a "fresh 50" yourself? Probably not.

 

!

 

Don't assume. I have my decked out 50 and I'm playing on a lvl 26 with my friends simply because i have more time to play than they do so i have a higher lvl toon. That toon is shelved mostly because i enjoy playing with my friends more than soloing and killing stuff beneath my lvl. I only take her out to do the dailies to make cash for my crafter alts otherwise she is shelved.

[Coinkee]

To go one step further. Ive been on these forums and playing FACEBOOK games.. Guess what? There's a progression in those too.

 

Damn Castleville not letting me make bakery til i hit lvl 21.

Why can't i expand my Castleville lot to full instantly?? My friends who have been playing longer have the full lot opened up!

 

Wow hey look.. Playing BINGO on Facebook.. why can't i play certain diff types of BINGO?? Oh CUZ I HAVE TO UNLOCK THEM FIRST!!! Why can't i get those special power up for my Bingo game?? oh gotta unlock those too! DAMN THEM ALL!

 

There is progression in EVERYTHING nowadays.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Coinkee

[oursacrifice]

Actually you are wrong on one point. Expertise is there too keep PvE gear out of PvP, not the other way around.

 

I don't know if I completely agree with that statement. If it was true, then the level 20 and level 40 pvp gear would have some small amount of expertise on it as well.

 

I think the stat was solely put in the epic level 50 sets as an epeen stat for the hardcore pvp crowd to have something that allows them to dominate quicker. I don't have a problem with that, don't get me wrong - but I don't think the real intent was to keep pve gear out of pvp.

[Coinkee]

I don't know if I completely agree with that statement. If it was true, then the level 20 and level 40 pvp gear would have some small amount of expertise on it as well.

 

I think the stat was solely put in the epic level 50 sets as an epeen stat for the hardcore pvp crowd to have something that allows them to dominate quicker. I don't have a problem with that, don't get me wrong - but I don't think the real intent was to keep pve gear out of pvp.

 

That was in response to the OP saying Resil was put into wow to keep pvp gear out of pve. when it was the other way around =D

 

The stat itself at max lvl is to keep top end raid gear out of pvp so pvpers dont have to pve in order to be competitive in pvp

Edited January 16, 2012 by Coinkee

[Ashes_Arizona]

I don't know if I completely agree with that statement. If it was true, then the level 20 and level 40 pvp gear would have some small amount of expertise on it as well.

 

I think the stat was solely put in the epic level 50 sets as an epeen stat for the hardcore pvp crowd to have something that allows them to dominate quicker. I don't have a problem with that, don't get me wrong - but I don't think the real intent was to keep pve gear out of pvp.

Well theres also the conundrum of how are you supposed to get PvP gear without going into PvP with PvE gear on.

 

I mean, if you take the statement literally, it means show up naked and bring your own lube for a week or two til your champ/bm bags turn up enough lucky dips for you to actually be able to play with the rest of us.

 

What other kind of gear should I bring to PvP, if I don't have PvP gear? Of course I'm going to show up in the best modded/stat maxed PvE gear I can muster.

[Ashes_Arizona]

The stat itself at max lvl is to keep top end raid gear out of pvp so pvpers dont have to pve in order to be competitive in pvp

 

Uh...one sec here okay.

 

Rakata Combat Medic's Armor

 

Battlemaster's Combat Medic's Armor

 

So what you're saying is....a PvE player with 28 more points of Aim and 13 more points of Endurance would dominate a PvP player if it wasn't for the +50 Expertise there?

 

Cause I think thats largely balderdash. The slight difference in PvE stats I don't think requires the massive 10% - 15.5% resistance/damage/healing increase Expertise in a full set bonus would give. Because the Aim/End increase across a Rakata base set wouldn't produce anywhere near to the same result.

 

So while the Rakata set has a slight PvE stat edge, and by slight I mean statistically insignificant once all set total bonuses are calculated + expertise on the BM set, I don't see the Rakata set being able to dominate a dedicated PvP player in the BM set because the PvP player obviously should have more PvP experience which would more than make up for the slight offset in Aim/End between the two.

[Tighe-Chimaera]

Expertise doubles the grind time. You have to grind for PvP gear, and do a separate grind for PvE gear.

 

If I do the grind for 1, why can't I play both? I've done the grind, I know my class, but you say I don't deserve to play the other half of the game until I've done my grind there, as well.

 

This sums up my view. Why can't both endgame gear opportunities have some equal stats in the end.

[Raxwars]

No, MMOs are all about playing with large numbers of other players. That is the definition.

 

The progression treadmill is a way to addict players rather than making a good game, and if that is truly all that TOR is, I won't be sticking around. I'm almost upset that I got pulled into it in the first place by my friends.

 

This is not good game design, no matter how addictive it is to some people, and the fact that this is brought up as a way to defend a developer lowers my faith in humanity.

 

However this game definition is MMO - RPG. There are lot's of MMO's out there. RPG is like a sub-bracket of this MMO game, it's what defines it.

 

In the 1st RPG games, RPG meant you character would develop trough the game, trough level up, or trough gear, or even trough skills. It has the same meaning nowdays.

[Raxwars]

This sums up my view. Why can't both endgame gear opportunities have some equal stats in the end.

 

I always defended that point before game release. In my POV PVE/PVP gear should be similar, with some minor difference, PVP gear would have stats that would support more burst damage/healing, while PVE gear would have stats that support constant and stable damage/healing.

 

Even so they introduced expertise, and now, removing it seems almost impossible.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Raxwars

[Coinkee]

Uh...one sec here okay.

 

Rakata Combat Medic's Armor

 

Battlemaster's Combat Medic's Armor

 

So what you're saying is....a PvE player with 28 more points of Aim and 13 more points of Endurance would dominate a PvP player if it wasn't for the +50 Expertise there?

 

Cause I think thats largely balderdash. The slight difference in PvE stats I don't think requires the massive 10% - 15.5% resistance/damage/healing increase Expertise in a full set bonus would give. Because the Aim/End increase across a Rakata base set wouldn't produce anywhere near to the same result.

 

So while the Rakata set has a slight PvE stat edge, and by slight I mean statistically insignificant once all set total bonuses are calculated + expertise on the BM set, I don't see the Rakata set being able to dominate a dedicated PvP player in the BM set because the PvP player obviously should have more PvP experience which would more than make up for the slight offset in Aim/End between the two.

 

Youre forgetting about set bonuses that you get in pve. You're forgeting that ONE piece of armor wont make a diff but a FULL set will.

 

And you answered your own question. It's the PVPER in the PVE gear that is dangerous. NOT the PVEr in PVE gear. Thus forcing the PVPer to PVE to get top end gear to PVP.

[SandTrout]

Even so they introduced expertise, and now, removing it seems almost impossible.

Easy fix: Remove Expertise for gear, increase stats on said gear to match PvE sets.

 

Problem solved.

[Tighe-Chimaera]

I always defended that point before game release. In my POV PVE/PVP gear should be similar, with some minor difference, PVP gear would have stats that would support more burst damage/healing, while PVE gear would have stats that support constant and stable damage/healing.

 

Even so they introduced expertise, and now, removing it seems almost impossible.

 

That's how SWG was, all the armor was more or less the same and depending on how you planned on using it was how you'd work out the stats.