Sniper/Gunslinger horrible in PvP redesign needed

[SandTrout]

The numbers don't lie. Either snipers/gunslingers need a buff of some sort, or Sages/sorcerers need a nerf. Otherwise, the sniper has no purpose since there is a class that is better in every way.

[Jiav]

Can we all please agree to treat the discussion here as if CupieFoxtail is not posting, every single post I have ever seen is just "your bad, I play sniper and I am awesome L2P". Or something with similar meaning. He/she is not the only one but please can we try to keep this a reasonable discussion with facts/evidence and not massive egos and offtopic/flaming discussion.

 

Sandtrout thanks for the post it added some facts to the discussion, ill crost post something similar from our class forums. Some suggestions on how to fix the current weaknesses of the sniper class

 

 

I don't think we need more damage just more utility, pvp is all about CC and survivibility. Some small QOL changes that I think would bring snipers more in line with mauraders(our other "pure" class would be these)

 

- We need a ranged stun, every other ranged class has a ranged stun, we don't.

 

- We need a healing debuff at least equal to the one that mauraders have, preferable with a long duration so that we are not made free kills by hybrids LOSing and healing up.

 

- We need a slow that is decent, Force lightning applys a 50% slow on its target, our best slow is 30% and in both cases is only applied by a long cooldown(20+) dot.

 

- Cover useable when snared, a snare is meant to be a movement control ability not a hard stun, which is what it is like when you are snared as a sniper.

 

- Revamp cover. It should be a bonus when used, but not so critical to the class that without it we are as good as a stunned target when not in it(lethality less so).

 

 

I made some other points in previous posts in this thread that could do with some discussion. I really wish the mods would take a more aggressive stance on forum bans to clean this place up, its approaching wow's forums in levels of trolling/blatant immaturity.

 

All we need is some kind of MS and maybe a slow. Scaling is a different issue. Right now weapon damage scaling is horrible when it comes to PVE, but that only effects marksman vs tanks so far.

 

Yet, once ranked brackets are released, we can amuse that each team has atleast 2 tanks with guard up and it will get far more harder to "burst" something. Our burst is an illusion vs level 50 geard people anyway. Its not better than merc/marauder "burst". Add in guard and there is no burst at all.

[oceansofmars]

Cover. is. so. broken. thus snipers are broken. bioware says nothing about it as udual.

[Crujido]

Am I the only one who doesn't think they need a redesign?

[CupieFoxtail]

No this class does need a buff. It is canon fodder in 2 specs, only 1 spec on both sides is viable and they don't need cover.

 

The only reason people do good with the class is because of biochem which is getting nerfed.

 

Well I'm doing well. You say that you aren't. Is there a way that you can arrange so that you get a buff and I don't?

I don't want to be there when the sky falls down and snipers are fotm god mode

[GameTwine]

All we need is some kind of MS and maybe a slow. Scaling is a different issue. Right now weapon damage scaling is horrible when it comes to PVE, but that only effects marksman vs tanks so far.

 

Yet, once ranked brackets are released, we can amuse that each team has atleast 2 tanks with guard up and it will get far more harder to "burst" something. Our burst is an illusion vs level 50 geard people anyway. Its not better than merc/marauder "burst". Add in guard and there is no burst at all.

 

Exactly, on my level 13 maud I hit 2k scream crits (instant) on my sniper I have to

 

Press Cover

Hope it works not glitch

Cast Sniper (1.5)

Hope it crits

 

Where as on a level 13 maud I

Press button Boom damage.

 

 

Like I said I was going into the marks tree but when I realized how broken this class was with

 

Mitigation

Cover bug

Energy bug on tier 4

 

I quickly switch to leathal as it was stupid for me to sit there and press cover over and over while being attack by a zerg and doing nothing.

[Imspecial]

No this class does need a buff. It is canon fodder in 2 specs, only 1 spec on both sides is viable and they don't need cover.

 

The only reason people do good with the class is because of biochem which is getting nerfed.

 

I don't agree with the biochem comment, biochem is available to every class so should ideally not be brought up in a class balance discussion. I do however think that anyone who is doing well on a sniper atm, would be doing even better if on one of the other ranged classes with the same gear level and playtime as they have on their current sniper. That reason is why we are having this discussion, a lot of us fear that once the rest of the population gets gear and skills up a little with their respective classes we will be the cannon fodder of the warzones. For every sniper in a warzone currently, an equal geared and played sorc or BH will do equal damage with far better utility for the team and is thus more likely to aid the team in winning the match.

 

Anyone who is still letting their love for the class or ego about their ability to noobstomp please stop being blind to the classes issues because of it, take a step back and really look into the toolset of the other classes that you could be playing and realise we are at an obvious disadvantage right now.

[CupieFoxtail]

Exactly, on my level 13 maud I hit 2k scream crits (instant) on my sniper I have to

 

Press Cover

Hope it works not glitch

Cast Sniper (1.5)

Hope it crits

 

You have 2 knockbacks, one casted and one a benefit from another talent ability. You have a snare. You have a melee range stun. You have diversion, for 9 seconds you can reduce his chance to hit by 45%. You can flash grenade and run. If all else fails, you have dodge, where for 3-4 seconds you can dps him and lol that the marauder isn't doing anything. These are your tools. Use them.

 

We do have a slow. It's optional, third tier in the saboteur tree. It's called shock charge, with the two extra points for shocking charge.

Edited January 15, 2012 by CupieFoxtail

[GameTwine]

I don't agree with the biochem comment, biochem is available to every class so should ideally not be brought up in a class balance discussion. I do however think that anyone who is doing well on a sniper atm, would be doing even better if on one of the other ranged classes with the same gear level and playtime as they have on their current sniper. That reason is why we are having this discussion, a lot of us fear that once the rest of the population gets gear and skills up a little with their respective classes we will be the cannon fodder of the warzones. For every sniper in a warzone currently, an equal geared and played sorc or BH will do equal damage with far better utility for the team and is thus more likely to aid the team in winning the match.

 

Anyone who is still letting their love for the class or ego about their ability to noobstomp please stop being blind to the classes issues because of it, take a step back and really look into the toolset of the other classes that you could be playing and realise we are at an obvious disadvantage right now.

 

 

Why not agree? Bioware themselves are making the changes. Anyone can see that the buffs provided a HUGE imbalance in the game. PVP should NOT be affected by professions is such a manner. People rolling around hitting as high 10k crits with the average player having 15k health is bad blood for a new MMO.

 

It should NOT be required to have a certain profession to be good in PVP. There are so many diffrent crew/gathering skills why should everyone only have to use 2?

[GameTwine]

You have 2 knockbacks, one casted and one a benefit from another talent ability. You have a snare. You have a melee range stun. If all else fails, you have dodge, where for 3-4 seconds you can dps him and lol that the marauder isn't doing anything. These are your tools. Use them.

 

We do have a slow. It's optional, third tier in the saboteur tree. It's called shock charge, with the two extra points for shocking charge.

 

 

Dude.

 

 

 

What are you talking about

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

 

Yes we have great abilities that take forever to cast while being pounded by everyone else s instant cast. That's great thanks for sharing. in 2 seconds I can do ALOT more then 2.5k crits on a maud.

 

Like I said I rolled lethal as sitting on the ground hoping for crits while wasting your energy in a few seconds was dumb to me.

 

You're completely ignoring FULL post to sound right... I don't even wanna talk to you anymore.

[SandTrout]

You have 2 knockbacks, one casted and one a benefit from another talent ability. You have a snare. You have a melee range stun. You have diversion, for 9 seconds you can reduce his chance to hit by 45%. You can flash grenade and run. If all else fails, you have dodge, where for 3-4 seconds you can dps him and lol that the marauder isn't doing anything. These are your tools. Use them.

 

We do have a slow. It's optional, third tier in the saboteur tree. It's called shock charge, with the two extra points for shocking charge.

Sages have an AoE knockback that they can use while mobile, on a shorter cooldown timer, and does damage to boot. They also have 2 different movement imparing abilties, a slow and a root, both of which are on shorter cooldown timers than the sniper's root. Sages can also mez and run. Their mez is channeled, but lasts 3 seconds longer, and they have a force speed ability which means that they'll actually be out of range by the time the mez fades, and they can still outrun their opponent if they use their break-free.

 

Oh yeah, and that nice melee stun. Sages have that as well, except with a 30m range.

[KorwinOfAmber]

Sniper? Ineffective? Cover? Hard to use in PvP?

 

Sigh... seriously, i think of stopping reading those forums altogether, since amount of stupidity is simply overwhelming.

 

The only thing Sniper can complain about is a Los and that every enemy sees when he is targeted, but that just balances his utility and great damage. I got a sniper and i absolutely love it in pvp.

[CupieFoxtail]

Dude.

 

 

 

What are you talking about

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

YOU GOTTA BE IN COVER FOR IT TO WORK

 

Yes we have great abilities that take forever to cast while being pounded by everyone else s instant cast. That's great thanks for sharing. in 2 seconds I can do ALOT more then 2.5k crits on a maud.

 

Like I said I rolled lethal as sitting on the ground hoping for crits while wasting your energy in a few seconds was dumb to me.

 

You're completely ignoring FULL post to sound right... I don't even wanna talk to you anymore.

 

You don't have to be in cover to stun

You don't have to be in cover to snare

You don't have to be in cover to slow

You don't have to be in cover to mez

You don't have to be in cover to dodge

 

You have to be in cover to knockback

If you don't like cover at all, why did you pick a cover-centric class? The cover mechanic was well promulgated and is pretty obvious if you went and read the name of gunslinger or sniper abilities

 

Or do you not like the occasional buggy delay that you get sometimes when you try to get into cover and there's multiple enemies on you? Yeah, that's a justifiable complaint. But that doesn't mean the class is completely broken, it means that one major mechanic of the class is partially broken in one case

[Imspecial]

Why not agree? Bioware themselves are making the changes. Anyone can see that the buffs provided a HUGE imbalance in the game. PVP should NOT be affected by professions is such a manner. People rolling around hitting as high 10k crits with the average player having 15k health is bad blood for a new MMO.

 

It should NOT be required to have a certain profession to be good in PVP. There are so many diffrent crew/gathering skills why should everyone only have to use 2?

We are discussing the toolset of the sniper and how it compared against that of both the other ranged classes and our other "pure" counterpart the marauder.

 

The "big crits" from biochem are doable with any class, I see marauders doing 7-9k aoe crits, I can hit 7k on a lowbie with ambush if I have everything running, Ops can hit as high as 10k with boosted hidden strikes on lowbies. Its all irrelevant to this discussion however as the biochem consumables are class indepentant so they should not be brough up in a discussion about class balance.

[SandTrout]

Sniper? Ineffective? Cover? Hard to use in PvP?

 

Sigh... seriously, i think of stopping reading those forums altogether, since amount of stupidity is simply overwhelming.

 

The only thing Sniper can complain about is a Los and that every enemy sees when he is targeted, but that just balances his utility and great damage. I got a sniper and i absolutely love it in pvp.

 

Cover is ineffective against tech, force, and melee attacks. Most 'ranged' PvP attacks are actually tech or force.

 

Basically, the only reason to take cover in PvP is against another sniper/gunslinger.

[Jiav]

Evasion should also add 100% resist chance. Since right now, it is useless vs the majority of damage sources, we have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game when it comes to raiding.

[LastDarkness]

You need to think of the Talent Trees as Classes and Playstyles unto themselves. (This is true for all classes)

 

If your current one dosnt work for you try another, and if you you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a differant result. Thats the definition of insanity.

 

Understand how each tree wants you to play and adjust to it, particularly in Warzone which are constantly evolving tactics and counter tactics.

 

Im not as familiar with the Agent since I play a Smuggler Scoundrel but I do plan to play a Agent Sniper eventualy so i can play 1 of each class on each faction but differant advanced classes.

 

Anyways (Smuggler perspective)

Sharpshooting, your not supposed to go solo or try and go take 2+vrs you at cap points. Your a turret, you need to play at range with the Zerg. Preferably with a healer friend or a ranged tank to guard you while you both range dps.

 

Sabotage, this build really seems like the group dps. roll with the zerg on this one and focus the healers. Ive seen many many impressive Sabotage gunslingers.

 

Dirty Fighting (my favorite on scoundrel)

vastly differant run and gun type of style, you almost never want to engage in melee with people. Think of yourself as a virus trying to spread yourself to as many people as possible with your dots and keeping constantly on the run. This is the build where you dot someone then start abusing los to let it tick down on them. Run in dot as many people run out, then finesh off the weak ones with your attacks.

 

 

The problem I see many gunslingers compaining about is they just stand their behind their portable cover(which is a bad sign if they are using this right near physical cover since the latter gives better bonuses) and just try and go toe to toe with people an doutdps them then complain some melee dps manuvered around them and killed them.

[GameTwine]

You don't have to be in cover to stun

You don't have to be in cover to snare

You don't have to be in cover to slow

You don't have to be in cover to mez

You don't have to be in cover to dodge

 

K just snared if not lethal spec (Which doesn't require cover/WAAAY more energy effiecient)

Ill spam frag grenade and Rifle shot.

 

Ill mez okay but now if ill have to continue running because if i just drop cover and attack he'll be right there next to me ready to pound me, hopefully he doesn't break it or worse someone on my team is around AOEing.

 

Ill use dodge, woot for the next 3 seconds I'm so damn imba, oh wait I mean 2 seconds because cover is a GCD hope it doesn't bug, oh wait forgot to count in snipe timer, well that leaves me with .5 seconds of imbaness I guess that outta do the trick.

 

Anyways can't post anymore enjoying the game playing a class with a spec that isn't broken anyone who looks at this thread please beware and don't roll the other 2 specs. Cover is a HORRIBLE mechanic and broken. You will be gimping yourself in the long run, better yet just roll op or scoundrel.

[SandTrout]

You need to think of the Talent Trees as Classes and Playstyles unto themselves. (This is true for all classes)

 

If your current one dosnt work for you try another, and if you you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a differant result. Thats the definition of insanity.

I acutally agree on this point. I recently caved and respeced into lethality. However, that still means that an entire sniper skill tree is operating at a sub-par level.

 

The problem I see many gunslingers compaining about is they just stand their behind their portable cover(which is a bad sign if they are using this right near physical cover since the latter gives better bonuses) and just try and go toe to toe with people an doutdps them then complain some melee dps manuvered around them and killed them.

Yes, there are idiots who can't use the class and it's abilities properly, and there are players that have managed to excel with the class regardless of it's handicaps. However, these handicap do actually exist, when you compare abilities between two specs which are supposed to be comparable.

 

The numbers are clearly in favor of the lightning Sorcerer being the superior class overall.

[Imspecial]

Evasion should also add 100% resist chance. Since right now, it is useless vs the majority of damage sources, we have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game when it comes to raiding.

 

This is a pvp discussion, but I do agree on the resist chance, I am also an advocate that tanks shield/defense stats should affect all player damage not just a tiny portion(but mainly sniper) of the classes abilities.

 

I do however disagree about our cooldowns being useless in pve, pretty much every boss this tier has a use for evasion minus gnarj. Salvo is affected by dodge, infernal council melee hits are able to be dodged, soa's single target lightning is dodgeable.

[Desgarden]

K just snared if not lethal spec (Which doesn't require cover/WAAAY more energy effiecient)

Ill spam frag grenade and Rifle shot.

 

Ill mez okay but now if ill have to continue running because if i just drop cover and attack he'll be right there next to me ready to pound me, hopefully he doesn't break it or worse someone on my team is around AOEing.

 

Ill use dodge, woot for the next 3 seconds I'm so damn imba, oh wait I mean 2 seconds because cover is a GCD hope it doesn't bug, oh wait forgot to count in snipe timer, well that leaves me with .5 seconds of imbaness I guess that outta do the trick.

 

Anyways can't post anymore enjoying the game playing a class with a spec that isn't broken anyone who looks at this thread please beware and don't roll the other 2 specs. Cover is a HORRIBLE mechanic and broken. You will be gimping yourself in the long run, better yet just roll op or scoundrel.

 

I disagree to some extend:

 

Cover would be nice and innovative IF...

 

1. ...the WZ wouldn't sometimes simply prevent the mechanic from triggering when there is a lot of fighting going on

 

2. ...there wouldn't be many glitches where you had problems to get into cover after being pushed back etc (sometimes there seems to be suddenly a cooldown for cover of up to 2-3 sec - pretty weird)

 

3. you would really gain someting compared to other classes e.g. a BH with heavy armour seems to shrug off as much damage than we do even if an opponent is so nice and stay in front of our little cover (portable cover that is). Currently the whole mechanic seems to be just there to make things more complicated and there is little to no net gain (granted, not being charged is nice)

 

 

 

Area denial? Oh well, give us some caltrops or proximity mines deployable around our cover

Edited January 15, 2012 by Desgarden

[Jiav]

This is a pvp discussion, but I do agree on the resist chance, I am also an advocate that tanks shield/defense stats should affect all player damage not just a tiny portion(but mainly sniper) of the classes abilities.

 

I do however disagree about our cooldowns being useless in pve, pretty much every boss this tier has a use for evasion minus gnarj. Salvo is affected by dodge, infernal council melee hits are able to be dodged, soa's single target lightning is dodgeable.

 

Soa's lighting balls, all kinds of aoe damage, flame debuff from annihaltor all are not dodgeable. Our defensive cds are VERY situtational, when compared to alle other classes.

 

Thats also a pvp problem, evasion pretty much only helps us versus other snipers.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Jiav

[LastDarkness]

I acutally agree on this point. I recently caved and respeced into lethality. However, that still means that an entire sniper skill tree is operating at a sub-par level.

 

Yes, there are idiots who can't use the class and it's abilities properly, and there are players that have managed to excel with the class regardless of it's handicaps. However, these handicap do actually exist, when you compare abilities between two specs which are supposed to be comparable.

 

The numbers are clearly in favor of the lightning Sorcerer being the superior class overall.

 

Heres the one I see in Voidstar all the time. Snipers who drop down in portable cover in the open in front of the door in the middle of the melee brawl. Thats funny.

[Lerdoc]

As a gunslinger, I disagree

Your personal playstyle probably just isn't jiving with the class mechanics, which are fine

I recommend rerolling

 

This.

I'm gunslinger myself. I have non of your problems besides not seeing any big crits(dirty fighting spec).

[Desgarden]

This.

I'm gunslinger myself. I have non of your problems besides not seeing any big crits(dirty fighting spec).

 

It is amusing how facts of game mechanics are shouted down by idiotic "arguments" (let's call them that way despite they are backed up by nothing at all) like: "I have no problems. You suck" or "I have no problems. Just rereoll".

 

 

I bet you even deny that e.g. lethality will be screwed as soon as healers use their dispels on the poisons

 

 

This whole thing reminds me of the magus class in Warhammer. Some idiots always shouted "you suck, we are fine" and we know how it ended

Edited January 15, 2012 by Desgarden