Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[SandTrout]

Removing expertise does not change the fact new 50s will be massively out geared. This whole line of complaining about expertise is illogical.

You are correct in stating that removal of expertise will not prevent older characters from out-gearing new character. The only purpose it serves is as an artificial barrier between PvE and PvP so that players have a harder time accessing the content of the game.

 

That is the only thing it does, as a net. This is a point that I have repeated numerous times. All it does is cut off players from parts of the game they might otherwise enjoy. This is a bad thing if you want to keep people interested in the game over the long term.

[Coinkee]

Of course its a treadmill. Thats what MMOs are!

 

Bosses get harder cuz you need to push dps ceilings and healing ceilings and the tanks gear ceiling. Thats what PROGRESSION is.

 

you NEED the gear from the previous tier to be able to play with the next tier of bosses.

[stevesetoe]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

 

that's weird. All I read is "I wanna own everyone in PVE gear cause everyone should PVE for better stats. And the people who only play this game for PVP and have no interest in PVE are just **** out of luck."

 

you'll have people in the best PVE gear from hardmode and ops instead. There is no difference, shut up about this nonsense already.

Edited January 15, 2012 by stevesetoe

[SandTrout]

Of course its a treadmill. Thats what MMOs are!

 

Bosses get harder cuz you need to push dps ceilings and healing ceilings and the tanks gear ceiling. Thats what PROGRESSION is.

 

you NEED the gear from the previous tier to be able to play with the next tier of bosses.

And why is this a good thing? It's not a new challenge; it's the same thing you've done a dozen times before. I dislike that sort of repetition that has driven me, and numerous other people away from multiple MMOs. It's not progress, it's repetition of the same routine.

[Killadrix]

Nice dodge there bro. So what you're saying is that you have no explanation yet you're arguing for expertise for no reason? Nice.

 

Except the part where I then went on to do so on the next page.

 

Maybe you should read first and be snide later?

[Coinkee]

And why is this a good thing? It's not a new challenge; it's the same thing you've done a dozen times before. I dislike that sort of repetition that has driven me, and numerous other people away from multiple MMOs. It's not progress, it's repetition of the same routine.

 

Clearly MMOs aren't for you.

[SandTrout]

Clearly MMOs aren't for you.

 

Incorrect. Clearly the current generation of MMOs that emulate WoW are not for me. I enjoyed open world MMOs like DAoC and Planetside far more than what I have seen of the Instance of Warcraft. They didn't need the treadmill as much because they actually had fun, engaging gameplay. You leveled your character to max level because you wanted to play a particular part of the game without feeling like you were sub-par. Once you got your top end set of armor, you particpated in fights because they were fun and challenging, not because they granted you access to the next repetitive fight.

[stevesetoe]

Incorrect. Clearly the current generation of MMOs that emulate WoW are not for me. I enjoyed open world MMOs like DAoC and Planetside far more than what I have seen of the Instance of Warcraft. They didn't need the treadmill as much because they actually had fun, engaging gameplay. You leveled your character to max level because you wanted to play a particular part of the game without feeling like you were sub-par. Once you got your top end set of armor, you particpated in fights because they were fun and challenging, not because they granted you access to the next repetitive fight.

 

marry me.

[SandTrout]

marry me.

That's legal in New York, right?

[Coinkee]

Incorrect. Clearly the current generation of MMOs that emulate WoW are not for me. I enjoyed open world MMOs like DAoC and Planetside far more than what I have seen of the Instance of Warcraft. They didn't need the treadmill as much because they actually had fun, engaging gameplay. You leveled your character to max level because you wanted to play a particular part of the game without feeling like you were sub-par. Once you got your top end set of armor, you particpated in fights because they were fun and challenging, not because they granted you access to the next repetitive fight.

 

Ya and i'd love to have my old UO back.

 

Not gonna happen. There is no market for it anymore.

[Senefera]

Increase the difficulty of the PvE content and put expertise on the PvE gear.

NPCs won't leave the game if they get roflstomped one time too many, and that would give PvErs their beloved advantage. Their gear would be bloated with expertise, so it'd never be as good as ours if they decided to try and roflstomp something that wasn't scripted.

 

The only ones I see arguing against this are the bads that need the PvP gear advantage to feed their fragile little ego with easy wins. A real PvPer wants a good fight.

[ArchAUstin]

Expertise is completely and 100% necessary to balancing PvP and PvE. Every new mmo will have this type of stat, don't worry about not having you get it when you hit 50 and 50's are in their own bracket come tuesday so you can relax

[Killadrix]

Incorrect. Clearly the current generation of MMOs that emulate WoW are not for me. I enjoyed open world MMOs like DAoC and Planetside far more than what I have seen of the Instance of Warcraft. They didn't need the treadmill as much because they actually had fun, engaging gameplay. You leveled your character to max level because you wanted to play a particular part of the game without feeling like you were sub-par. Once you got your top end set of armor, you particpated in fights because they were fun and challenging, not because they granted you access to the next repetitive fight.

 

I think the problem here is that SWTOR isn't those games and isn't going to become those games.

 

Furthermore, I think you fail to realize that the majority of players do want a treadmill gear system (as evidenced by its popularity).

[MasterMaL]

Removing Expertise would be really stupid. True pvper will be able to compete even in green stuff against full expertise epic enemies. trust me i was lv 20 and already toping charts in warzones.

 

If they remove expertise then all the PVPers will NEED to go grind high end pve raids to gear themselves to the max, then return into warzones to stomp noobs.

 

PVP gear for pvp

 

PVE gear for pve

 

the only way to make it work, and they are doing it well. The only thing i hate about expertise is that it also increase healing done, while nothing reduce healing received gear wise. Making healers too strong when in a full geared group. Nobodie die at all.

 

+12% dmg done, -12% dmg received, +12% healing done, do the math the more gear you get, the more stats aka heal you can do AND the bonus expertise come in to break it all and make healers too strong.

[Treebyrn]

The only MMO that i know of (im sure someone will nicely correct me if im wrong) that wasnt gear based was Prepub 16 Ultima Online. that is the ONLY MMO that i now of where you could literally pvp in a skirt and a sash as long as your skills were maxxed.

 

That games pvp showed REAL skill cuz there were NO stats on anything really and even that switched to a gear based (stats) game in later days and it ruined it.

 

FPS - RPG - every game nowadays is geared based. Youre not gonna go fight a dragon in peasant clothes in Skyrim are you? No you're gonna 'gear up' first. Every game has a gear progression and the gear progression is stats. CoD - BF3 - You gear up as well. You unlock new guns and stuff.

 

Youre asking THIS game to not boost stats on gear?

 

Hmm.. you say the pvp in Ultima Online showed REAL skill but then they RUINED it when they added stats to gear.... interesting! Maybe just maybe player tolerate and accept gear based treadmill mmo's (especially on the pvp side) because that is all we have in todays market. Maybe a company will come along and make an mmo where your skills define you and not your gear.. in fact your gear has no real stats and is more or less for looks. Rewards for pvp and such are fun unique things and maybe a few extra skills thrown in for good measure. Maybe just maybe that company will also concentrate on making the pvp content fun and engaging instead of throwing together a few warzones and putting the players on never ending treadmill for gear to keep them playing long term.

 

 

Well one can dream .

[Garbald]

Expertise is completely and 100% necessary to balancing PvP and PvE. Every new mmo will have this type of stat, don't worry about not having you get it when you hit 50 and 50's are in their own bracket come tuesday so you can relax

 

Daoc likes a word with you

[Killadrix]

Daoc likes a word with you

 

People keep comparing DAOC to SWTOR as if the only difference between the two games were one had a PVP stat and the other didn't.

 

That is not the case.

[SandTrout]

Removing Expertise would be really stupid. True pvper will be able to compete even in green stuff against full expertise epic enemies. trust me i was lv 20 and already toping charts in warzones.

 

If they remove expertise then all the PVPers will NEED to go grind high end pve raids to gear themselves to the max, then return into warzones to stomp noobs.

Not if the same gear is available via PvP commendation vendor. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

 

PVP gear for pvp

 

PVE gear for pve

 

the only way to make it work, and they are doing it well. The only thing i hate about expertise is that it also increase healing done, while nothing reduce healing received gear wise. Making healers too strong when in a full geared group. Nobodie die at all.

 

+12% dmg done, -12% dmg received, +12% healing done, do the math the more gear you get, the more stats aka heal you can do AND the bonus expertise come in to break it all and make healers too strong.

That is flatout incorrect that a PvP stat is necessary. DAoC before they ****ed it up. No such thing as PvP stats, and the treadmill was unnecessary. No one *****ed about Relic gear being used in PvP because everyone was using the same gear anyways. People didn't ask for stronger gear to beat down more powerful monsters, the brought a bigger and/or better army. They had their gear that was the best they were gonna get, so they progressed as PLAYERS by means of skill and organization to defeat progressively more powerful opponents. Edited January 15, 2012 by SandTrout

[Garbald]

People keep comparing DAOC to SWTOR as if the only difference between the two games were one had a PVP stat and the other didn't.

 

That is not the case.

 

Yes they where vastly different, but daoc is the prime example for a very well thought out gearing system (in my opinion it was the best system any mmo to date had). Maybe thats why daoc is brought up so often.

 

And actually I think the alternative advancement system could be easily adopted for todays mmo styles by giving an additional raid/hard mode dungeon alternative advancement system that does not touch gear in any way.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Garbald

[SandTrout]

Yes they where vastly different, but daoc is the prime example for a very well thought out gearing system (in my opinion it was the best system any mmo to date had). Maybe thats why daoc is brought up so often.

 

Also not that most people who used to play and quit the game cite its transition into a treadmill as the beginning of the end.

[stevesetoe]

Hmm.. you say the pvp in Ultima Online showed REAL skill but then they RUINED it when they added stats to gear.... interesting! Maybe just maybe player tolerate and accept gear based treadmill mmo's (especially on the pvp side) because that is all we have in todays market. Maybe a company will come along and make an mmo where your skills define you and not your gear.. in fact your gear has no real stats and is more or less for looks. Rewards for pvp and such are fun unique things and maybe a few extra skills thrown in for good measure. Maybe just maybe that company will also concentrate on making the pvp content fun and engaging instead of throwing together a few warzones and putting the players on never ending treadmill for gear to keep them playing long term.

 

 

Well one can dream .

 

I don't know. I've played FFXI for years and that atleast had challenging content.

 

A lot of players quit the game cause the called it long winded, but the main reason for a lot of them was that there was no PVP (Which is fair) but also cause the Devs there didn't care about people who cried too much.

 

"If something could be beaten, it could be beaten. If you can't do it, that's your problem cause it's possible"

 

I believe no one has beaten AV there yet legitimatly.

 

 

You could have people in semi decent gear and finish anything simply because it was based on how well you play together and how well you understand your class and job. Getting better gear made you more effective and able to do things easier, or with less people. But wasn't a requirement to do anything else. (beware, finsing people that qualify for previous statement is actually harder than most PVE I've found in any game I've played after FFXI)

 

Now ofcourse, this has nothing to do with expertise, but if PVE was anything like that, hard and actually challenging regardless of gear, I wouldn't mind doing PVE.

Thing is. it's not. You can bring a pug of random people without much organization in to any instance in this game (and many others) and just finish the instance like that.

If stuff's too hard (read, fun and challenging) people complain to a point where devs nerf it. It happens in too many post WoW games.

 

 

So for that reason, I'd like to keep my expertise stat on just PVP gear. So i can just focus on PVP.

[Killadrix]

Not if the same gear is available via PvP commendation vendor. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

 

That is flatout incorrect that a PvP stat is necessary. DAoC before they ****ed it up. No such thing as PvP stats, and the treadmill was unnecessary. No one *****ed about Relic gear being used in PvP because everyone was using the same gear anyways. People didn't ask for stronger gear to beat down more powerful monsters, the brought a bigger and/or better army. They had their gear that was the best they were gonna get, so they progressed as PLAYERS by means of skill and organization to defeat progressively more powerful opponents.

 

DAOC subscriber base:

 

Date Population

Launch 250,000

July, 2002 210,000

2003 250,000

2005 175,000

2006 125,000

2007 95,000

2008 50,000

2009 20,000

2011 5,000

 

Yep, let's encourage BW to take queues from a game which

 

a) had FAR LESS people playing it

b) ran straight into the ground from day 1.

[Lokai]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

\

yea lets go back to old school pvp where raiders would enter a battleground and rofl stomp everyone with out trying...that'll be fun! saddly expertise is needed to separate the pvpers from raiders and give those that pvp a clear cut advantage.

[SandTrout]

*snip*

 

So for that reason, I'd like to keep my expertise stat on just PVP gear. So i can just focus on PVP.

Would you mind if your PvP gear lost its expertise, but got all of its other stats buffed up to match the Raid gear?

[Garbald]

DAOC subscriber base:

 

Date Population

Launch 250,000

July, 2002 210,000

2003 250,000

2005 175,000

2006 125,000

2007 95,000

2008 50,000

2009 20,000

2011 5,000

 

Yep, let's encourage BW to take queues from a game which

 

a) had FAR LESS people playing it

b) ran straight into the ground from day 1.

 

 

Uhm those numbers in those days would probably translate to 3 or 4 million players in todays market (remember there where far less mmo players in the pre wow era then there are now)

 

Oh and the running into the ground was the toa addon (2003) which was a total fiasco before that it was very stable around the 250k mark (again a HUGE success in those days)^^

Edited January 15, 2012 by Garbald