Universal Combat Logs are Necessary

[Cranberries]

I'm part of the hardcore side (shocker?) and I'm going to explain using fights in this game why combat logs are necessary to the game's end game advancement in mechanics, fun and difficulty. A universal combat log, for those unknowing, is NOT a damage meter. It's NOT a healing meter. All it is, simply, is a log of combat that details everything that happened in either solo play, group (4 man) play, warzone play or Operation play. It is true that while a universal combat log can be used to formulate addons, using WoW as an example, such as Skada. It's important to note that Skada is not simply a damage done meter, it tracks pretty much everything to do with combat - some of which can actually help a player improve. For example, the 'damage taken' meter gives an accurate reading of how much damage you took from a particular boss or player in either group, warzone or Operation play. I do not see how this is a bad thing. It shows that if you take a lot of damage, which is avoidable, then you should take the necessary procautions to reduce that number.

 

Moving onto why a universal combat log is needed though: I will use various bosses from HM FPs to show why a universal combat log and something like Skada would only make the game better.

 

Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 150

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

 

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage.

 

Krel Thak in Battle of Ilum:

Krel Thak has 210,000 hp

Krel Thak will summon 5 waves of adds with 5k hp each (there are 4 adds) [total 100,000 hp]

 

The enrage is 120 seconds:

310,000 / 120

2583 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 861

 

Again, this is a tightly tuned enrage and the most important part of this fight is how you handle the start and the adds: you burn the boss with all CDs at the start, and you need to kill the adds ASAP when they spawn or they will kill people. If you wipe however, again, there are multiple reasons:

1) DPS wasn't high

2) Melee killed themselves due to Krel Thak's shield

3) Adds managed to kill someone because they weren't killed fast enough

4) People were not spread out making the AoE Krel Thak does hit multiple people

5) Healing was too low - didn't let people do their best DPS rotations (see 1)

 

This is another fight where there are a lot of variables as to why you may wipe.

 

These are just two examples but I can give more, however I'm sure people can see why I believe a universal combat log is necessary - allowing an addon like Skada in this game would not make it worse. Since when has more knowledge been a bad thing? I don't understand why people would want to be able to get away doing the bare minimum: in games I try to be the best I can be, because it makes me happy and that is how I get my fun.

 

Looking into the camp of why people wouldn't want combat logs however, because I think it's fair. As far as I can work out people don't want combat logs because of the following:

- Number of times a meter is linked unnecessarily

- Number of times a meter is linked to insult another player

- Destroys a community in dungeons as no-one cares to be social and just wants to perform

- The player who is against combat logs pays $15 a month

 

I do agree with the first two. I think meters that are linked unnecessarily are a hassle and really shouldn't happen. In the cases they do happen (where a tank in WoW would link damage done meters after a trash pack) it is better to simply ignore said player and prove them wrong where it counts: bosses. Trash is mostly easy anywhere, so I see no reason why linking meters on trash is at all necessary. Again, when meters are linked to insult another player I'm cautious of a response. I ask myself "it is necessary?" and "how many chances has the player been given?" For example, if I link meters on a boss and ask a player why his or her DPS/damage done is low, too low infact for how they *should be* performing, and I recieve no answer it makes me a little angry because I would honestly like to help people get better. The reality is: people don't like being told they're wrong, and thus will never listen to criticisms (which is why listening to criticisms and taking it on board is something EVERY progression guild asks of its members).

 

For the other two: where it 'destroys a community' or 'a player has a right to play how he or she wants because they pay to play'. I think these are flawed arguments. The community in WoW, any MMO really, has always been bad. You will always (READ: ALWAYS) have a separation between the hardcore and casuals. Mostly for a variety of reasons: hardcores run through content with the aim goal being 'are we the first?' Casuals, in my opinion, take it a lot slower but could still very well do maybe (if we're using SWTOR difficulties) normal and hardmodes. The ideology that because someone pays to play this game is flawed as well. While they do contribute towards the game's financial assets, it does not mean they're allowed to get "carried" or "taken" through content.

 

A universal combat log is not simply about being able to post DPS meters, it is about being able to display all sorts of information that would help a guild progress. If a boss requires constant interrupting or a person dies (ultimately leading to a raid wipe) such as Reliquary of Souls in Black Temple and someon misses their interrupt, I should be allowed to see who did it so I can ask them why - if the answer was "I lagged" or "I didn't have enough energy [rogue]" or "I was too slow" - then I'll ask them not to do it again. I'm not going to get angry with people I raid and trial with over 1 or 2 minor mistakes, constant mistakes however need to be logged because in a hardcore progression guild it simply wont be the aforementioned with underperforming members. It's a reality.

 

To help the SWTOR community understand their "plight" of meters, namely the damage ones because it's the only ones people seem to be referencing, I decided to post a little gem on MMO-Champion (WoW fansite): thread.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Cranberries

[Cranberries]

Shameless bump, because it needs to be read.

[psysention]

i read

you are right

 

combatlog must in order to optimez the dps

[Inspire-]

For some reason the thread -link links only to the forum section, not your thread.

Here's the link to the thread:

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1063854-Meters-in-Dungeons

[Cranberries]

thanks ^^

 

it's 6am when i wrote it, so i was tired

Edited January 14, 2012 by Cranberries

[Zeodic]

While i personally don't care if they add damage meters etc, I appreciate your well thought out post.

 

Your points are valid. I think that the majority of people against meters is due to the "if you don't toe the line your gone" mentality they have brought in several games. I may do everything right, I may be perfectly geared however I will get kicked because my internet isnt perfect and I cant maintain high dps ...

 

You can't stop that from happening however that does not mean that they are not useful.

[VoXPCS]

I'm all for damage mods/meters and addons. Let me get that out of the way.

 

However, the reason that they'll probably not get implemented is because the community is split again, even worse than it is now.

 

• Plenty of time to play the game and max out skills and level to 50
  
• Little time to play ( work , school, etc. )
  

 

The two groups above suffer from one extreme to the other. You have all the unemployed maxing everything out sooner than the other group who have responsibilities. (I'm not being a smartazz, I'm just stating a fact.)

 

These two groups can have a tough time getting 4man or 8 man groups together because there aren't enough players on the same quests or Flashpoints.

 

Now let's take a gander at the almighty Elitist community and their extremely high DPS, gear and superior attitude.

 

They only want people in their group that:

 

• Have Min/Max'd all Gear. (Mods, Augments, etc)
  
• Can put out a min dps of XXX
  

 

This breeds /1 General messages such as the following:

 

"LFM Eternity Vault - min dps 9000! be geared and know your class"

 

This is garbage. Period. Anyone that types this in general should get a 72 hour ban.

 

 

DPS meters will ultimately make it harder and harder for people to get groups, harder than is now since the games population isn't that strong and they have WAAAAAAAAAY too many servers to make investors think the game is flourishing. (It's really not)

 

I do however want to know what my DPS is, and how to improve it. The only solution to this would be open NON-MOD SERVERS so that responsible players can play, die rinse and repeat in between working and going to school.

 

The rest can "Beat the game" in 20 minutes with their DPS meters on the other servers.

 

Just my view, having been someone that has the best of both worlds, employed, work at home and can handle verbally assaulting the little elite kids in general that think they have right to look down on players that don't produce enough damage to earn their respect.

 

You post a reply to this make sure it's mature enough for me, minimum education required 4 years in college, fluent in English and IQ over 130. Those are my requirements to respond.

Edited January 14, 2012 by VoXPCS

[Zeodic]

~snip~

I do however want to know what my DPS is, and how to improve it. The only solution to this would be open NON-MOD SERVERS so that responsible players can play, die rinse and repeat in between working and going to school.

 

~snip~

 

You post a reply to this make sure it's mature enough for me, minimum education required 4 years in college, fluent in English and IQ over 130. Those are my requirements to respond.

 

I like the Non-Mod server idea, I played DAOC on classic servers when they came out and had a blast. You made good points, then you slit your own throat /sigh ....

[Dekutanoth]

This is gold. I fully support this post, and agree with everything.

 

To add to the anti camp: "who cares how good you do, as long as bosses die?" What happens when bosses don't die? When you wipe 10 times to enrage, you can only tell people "dps harder" so many times before you get frustrated. It would be nice to see who's not pulling their weight.

 

"That only adds elitism." Well, some people like being competitive. Top guilds pride themselves on their performance. In my current wow guild, we slowly work our way through heroic bosses. Some of our raiders do far less dps than they should (we're talking 18k when the top three dps fight for number one at 30k), but we do not kick them, because they're friends, and we've been raiding a long time together. Does this make you feel better? If you want a guild that doesn't care about dps, performance, and overall skill, join one. (I for one wish I was in a more hardcore guild, but I stay because of a good RL friend, etc).

[RedMix]

Just like to point out that i was a meter user in WoW, and even without the meter im a jerk in SWTOR.

 

I call people bad that aren't hitting abilities on GCD.

 

I call people bad for not interrupting.

 

I call people bad for bad DPS on a fight because i know how fast it could be with good DPS.

 

I call people bad when i'm barely holding onto 50% HP while tanking and I've tanked the same mob with other healers that could keep me at 100% and still be able to do a little DPS as well.

 

I call people bad that aren't assisting the tank.

 

I call people bad that are DPSing during the pull.

 

I call people bad just for the sake of knowing I've done the current content slightly easier with other people.

 

 

Anyway, just pointing out that meters aren't going to make elitest go away, it just hinders guilds ability to raid effectively, as demonstrated by the OP! :3

[Dekutanoth]

Anyway, just pointing out that meters aren't going to make elitest go away, it just hinders guilds ability to raid effectively, as demonstrated by the OP! :3

 

Pretty much this.

[kiddeth]

I'm hard core as well. I do not need a set of numbers to tell me if I have won or not.

[Dekutanoth]

I'm hard core as well. I do not need a set of numbers to tell me if I have won or not.

 

Won? Maybe not. Pulled your weight? Absolutely. If, in your head, you're like "F'k yeah, I'm nailing my rotation! Surely I'm doing a lot more dps than everyone! Yay, boss died! I deserve the loot!" but in reality, you were botching your rotation, and did 30% less dps than the other guy that has the same class/spec as you, you need to know. Why? Because when cutting edge progression comes up, and you're wiping to enrage, you need to either improve, or let someone else in who can do better. Also, "I'm doing a lot more damage, I deserve that, its a better upgrade for me." "How do you know?" "I just know." "Do you have proof?" No. You wouldn't have proof unless you had combat logs. A lot (most) top end guilds go by loot council.

[lilbyte]

If they "are Necessary " then can you explain why my EQ1 raiding guild never needed one? Why my EQ2 raiding guild (which ALWAYS had server firsts) never needed one? Neither of the two raiding Why my RoM raiding guild used one for less then a week and decided it caused more drama then helped and went back to not using one.. yet had all endgame raid content on farm status?

 

If you was really as hard core as claim, then you wouldn't need one. If for years guilds had the skills to notice who needed help and how to help them without parses, why is todays "hardcore" less skilled?

[Dekutanoth]

If they "are Necessary " then can you explain why my EQ1 raiding guild never needed one? Why my EQ2 raiding guild (which ALWAYS had server firsts) never needed one? Neither of the two raiding Why my RoM raiding guild used one for less then a week and decided it caused more drama then helped and went back to not using one.. yet had all endgame raid content on farm status?

 

If you was really as hard core as claim, then you wouldn't need one. If for years guilds had the skills to notice who needed help and how to help them without parses, why is todays "hardcore" less skilled?

 

Because times change. This isn't EQ1 or EQ2. If you do 30% less dps than your peers, and you wipe to enrage, you NEED to know, in order to improve or be replaced.

[RealAeiouy]

No they are not. It does not even make sense how one character can 100% accurate access all the combat going on around them while fightng.

 

Perhaps if they created a bookkeeper mode where a character goes into a trance and cannot attack , heal or defend they might be able to keep track otherwise no.

 

Our feedback is supposed to be what our character can see and perceive. Combat logs for everyone else don't fit that in any way.

[Dekutanoth]

No they are not. It does not even make sense how one character can 100% accurate access all the combat going on around them while fightng.

 

Perhaps if they created a bookkeeper mode where a character goes into a trance and cannot attack , heal or defend they might be able to keep track otherwise no.

 

Our feedback is supposed to be what our character can see and perceive. Combat logs for everyone else don't fit that in any way.

 

This post doesn't even make sense.

[Tyrandaa]

Just like to point out that i was a meter user in WoW, and even without the meter im a jerk in SWTOR.

 

I call people bad that aren't hitting abilities on GCD.

 

I call people bad for not interrupting.

 

I call people bad for bad DPS on a fight because i know how fast it could be with good DPS.

 

I call people bad when i'm barely holding onto 50% HP while tanking and I've tanked the same mob with other healers that could keep me at 100% and still be able to do a little DPS as well.

 

I call people bad that aren't assisting the tank.

 

I call people bad that are DPSing during the pull.

 

I call people bad just for the sake of knowing I've done the current content slightly easier with other people.

 

 

Anyway, just pointing out that meters aren't going to make elitest go away, it just hinders guilds ability to raid effectively, as demonstrated by the OP! :3

 

 

+1. I'm a jerk to my friends when they screw up. I may not be the cuddliest person in the world, but people know stuff will get done when they run with me rather than spending 4 hours wiping. This has been without meters. Trust me, combat logging isn't going to magically turn everyone in to a douche, and their absence isn't going to make people like me less of a jerk.