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[Theorycrafting] PvE Tank Build Comparison


MorningMusume

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Well, people keep discovering new builds that are the best for everything, so I hope this post can consolidate the discussion a bit.

 

All the info I'll post here is based on my spreadsheet, by no means 100% accurate, but is pretty near what we can do without combat log or better info. The Google Docs link is the only one updated right now.

 

Also is based on my character stats:

 

Defensive:

 

Armor 8218

Defense Rating 270

Shield Rating 214

Absorb Rating 135

Supercommando 4 Pieces Bonus

 

Offensive:

 

AIM 1202 + 250

CUNNING 3 + 100

Power 0

Tech Power 971

Accuracy 261

Critical Rating 0

Weapon Damage 249-462

 

I'll start with the basic build:

 

31/8/2

 

This is the basic build, with Heat Blast, Power Armor, and ignoring Integrated Cardio Package (+3% endurance) for dps skills like Iron Fist (+8% damage to Rocket Punch) and Advance Tools (-1.5 secs to Flame Thower cooldown). Advance Tools, Prototype Cylinders and Iron Fist are pretty much similar dps-wise for the last point, but Advance Tools is the best for my gear, and also reduces Grapple cooldown.

 

Mean Mitigation: 66.53%

Avoided attacks: 15,49%

Shielded attacks: 37,05%

Full hit attacks: 47,46%

 

This build provides the best Mean Mitigation, so nothing to talk about here.

 

Let's go with the dps/threat:

 

DPS: 786.33

Heat Balance over 2 minutes: 57.90 overheat

 

Totally manageable with Vent Heat, and usually you don't need it with a bit of ping or use of defensive skills).

 

The rotation is basically: Rocket Punch, Heat Blast, Flame Thrower and Rail Shot on CD. Flame Burst every 15 seconds for debuff, a few Unload when heat is manageable and everything is on cooldown, Rapid Shots as filler.

 

With those stats you get ~17 Rocket Punch over 2 minutes.

 

This is the full quantity of skills used over 2 minutes:

 

FLAME THROWER 7

ROCKET PUNCH 17

RAIL SHOT 8

FLAME BURST 8

UNLOAD 7

HEAT BLAST 8

RAPID SHOTS 11

 

You get 30 Ion Gas Cylinder procs over 2 minutes, 17 from Rocket Punch, ~4 from Unload, 1 from Rail Shot and ~8 from Rapid Shots.

 

You get a Shield Vent proc every ~14 seconds, and you vent 68 heat over 2 minutes.

 

Full Heat Management of a 2 minute rotation:

 

TSO + FLAME THROWER -15,00

FLAME THROWER +60,00

ROCKET PUNCH +144,50

RAIL SHOT +68,00

FLAME BURST +68,00

UNLOAD +7,00

HEAT BLAST -124,00

RAPID SHOTS -82,50

SHIELD VENT -68,10

 

A full mitigation Retractable Blade build:

 

30/11

 

Same mitigation as the basic build, nothing to talk about here.

 

DPS: 750.46

Heat Balance over 2 minutes: 57.90 overheat

 

I forced the same overheat as the first build with the maximum dps, and is 5% lower than the basic build.

 

The rotation is basically: Rocket Punch, Retractable Blade and Flame Thrower on CD. Flame Burst every 15 seconds for debuff, a few Unload when heat is manageable and everything is on cooldown, Rapid Shots as filler. You can't really use Rail Shot without overheating too much or losing dps.

 

This is the full quantity of skills used over 2 minutes:

 

FLAME THROWER 7

ROCKET PUNCH 17

RAIL SHOT 0

FLAME BURST 8

UNLOAD 3

RETRACTABLE BLADE 8

RAPID SHOTS 27

 

As you see, you are forced to use 16 extra Rapid Shots, at the cost of 8 Rail Shot and 4 Unloads.

 

You get 33 procs of IGC on average over 2 minutes. 3 more than the basic build because you spam Rapid Shots so much, and Rail Shots anyway has a lower chance to proc it.

 

Full Heat Management of a 2 minute rotation:

 

TSO + FLAME THROWER -15,00

FLAME THROWER +60,00

ROCKET PUNCH +144,50

FLAME BURST +68,00

UNLOAD +3,00

RETRACTABLE BLADE +68,00

RAPID SHOTS -202,50

SHIELD VENT -68,10

 

As you seee Retractable Blade has a 192 surplus overheat versus Heat Blast. You need to compensate losing 8 Rail Shots (68), and doing 16 extra Rapid Shots (120) and a few Unloads less.

 

There is no advantage of using this build for sustained threat on PvE.

 

Let's take a look at a build losing also Empowered Tech for dps:

 

28/11/2

 

Mean Mitigation: 65.90%

Avoided attacks: 15,49%

Shielded attacks: 33,67%

Full hit attacks: 50,84%

 

You take 3.5% extra full hits, and you receive on average 1.85% extra damage than a Powertech using the basic build.

 

Doing the exact same rotation as the 30/11 build, you get a tiny bit more dps:

 

DPS: 755.99

The heat balance is bit worst: 61.62 over 2 minutes, because you get less Shield Vent procs.

 

Still does less dps than the basic build, and has worst mitigation and heat management.

 

The last build, the Incendiary Missile build:

 

23/0/18

 

The focus of this build is using the heat management from the Pyrotech tree, instead of Heat Blast, and ignoring Empowered Tech because, well, people don't like Shield Chance!

 

Mean Mitigation: 64.35%

Avoided attacks: 17,49%

Shielded attacks: 27,92%

Full hit attacks: 54,59%

 

You lose not only Empowered Tech, but Power Armor. You gain 2% defense, and 3% Endurance. You take 3.5% extra full hits. Also you take 6.2% damage on average than the basic build. You have worst mitigation by a great margin.

 

Let's take a look at the DPS, the reason of this build.

 

DPS: 810.40

Heat Balance over 2 minutes: 49.49 overheat

 

Does better dps than the basic build (3 % extra) with a bit better heat generation.

 

Is enough 3% extra sustained dps for being hit for 6.2% extra damage?

 

The rotation for this build is: Rocket Punch, Flame Thrower and Rail Shot on CD. Flame Burst every 15 seconds for debuff, Incendiary Missile every 18 seconds keeping the debuff, never use Unloaad. Rapid Shots as filler.

 

With that rotation you get 10 extra Rail Shots over 2 minutes, so 18 total.

 

This is the full quantity of skills used over 2 minutes:

 

FLAME THROWER 6

ROCKET PUNCH 17

RAIL SHOT 18

FLAME BURST 8

INCENDIARY MISSILE 8

RAPID SHOTS 17

 

You get less IGC procs, 19. 11 less over 2 minutes. Also the uptime from IGC dot is not 100%, as it lasts only 6 seconds instead of 9, and isn't a 100% chance on Rocket Punch.

 

On average you also get enough Rail Shots free, for a neat lose of Heat of 162.18 (near 10 free Rail Shots over 2 minutes), thanks to the skill Prototype Particle Accelerator.

 

This is the heat balance from 2 minutes:

 

FLAME THROWER (TSO) -15,00

FLAME THROWER 50,00

ROCKET PUNCH 144,50

RAIL SHOT 9,00

FLAME BURST 68,00

INCENDIARY MISSILE 140,00

RAPID SHOTS -127,50

SHIELD VENT -57,33

PPA HEAT -162,18

 

Rail Shot vents 8 heat when hitting a burning target, so its heat balance is only 0.5 per cast with this build. Is interesting that PPA vent heat is pretty similar to Heat Blast, so mainly with this build you pay for the extremely costly Incendiary Missile thanks to the free Rail Shots, and a few extra Rapid Shots (you don't need that much as the Retractable Blade build), but the Mitigation lost is significant.

 

TL;DR

 

BUILD / MITIGATION / DPS / OVERHEAT OVER 2MIN

31/8/2 - 66.53% - 786.33 - 57.90 heat

30/11 - 66.53% - 750.46 - 57.90 heat

28/11/2 - 65.90% - 755.99 - 61.62 heat

23/0/18 - 64.35% - 810.40 - 49.49 heat

Edited by MorningMusume
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I fixed a bug with extra Rail Shots on the Incendiary Missile build, the procs from Flame Burst were being calculated wrong. I'll update the former post, the new dps and heat balance for that build is:

 

DPS: 810.40

Heat Balance: 49.49

 

So is a 3% damage increase over the base build.

Edited by MorningMusume
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I fixed a bug with extra Rail Shots on the Incendiary Missile build, the procs from Flame Burst were being calculated wrong. I'll update the former post, the new dps and heat balance for that build is:

 

DPS: 810.40

Heat Balance: 49.49

 

So is a 3% damage increase over the base build.

 

The rotation for this build is: Rocket Punch, Flame Thrower and Rail Shot on CD. Flame Burst every 15 seconds for debuff, Incendiary Missile every 18 seconds keeping the debuff, never use Unload and Rapid Shots as filler.

 

It should also be using Flame Burst a lot more than this as they fish for Rail Shot procs, which vent heat for more fishing, which lead to more Rail Shot procs and venting, which is the entire point of the build and why your DPS and Heat management numbers are low. For this build Flame Burst isn't just there for a debuff, it is a staple of your threat rotation. In practice you'll know you've got your rotation right when you're swearing at the top of your lungs every time you have to use Rapid Shots, but I don't know how that translates to spread sheets.

 

In most situations you shouldn't even be using Flamethrower for single-target for the same reason Pyro PvE DPS builds don't use Thermal Detonator -- it doesn't proc Rail Shots. Pretty much the same situation as Unload, while FT seems like efficient use of Heat for Threat output, it is not an efficient use of Global Cooldowns for this build (single-target anyway).

 

I'm also curious about the difference between Flame Surge and Puncture DPS wise. Most mobs in PvE tend not to have too much armor mitigation it seems, so I'm not entirely sure which is better from a tank's standpoint. Currently I'm using Puncture because it is flat out better for PvP if you have a respectable crit chance (crit chance of course being out of the question while tanking).

 

There are other issues (Offensively using Vent Heat as a Threat/Damage cooldown, which this build makes the most use out of, etc), but those are practical gameplay issues which any spreadsheet is going to have problems with.

 

I really appreciate your work on this. I'm much better at statistics than "real math," and I'm nowhere near smart enough to figure something like this out. Thank a lot.

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I'll get the spreadsheet more friendly for build changes so you can test all that stuff by yourself. Btw, if you do extra Flame Burst you lose damage, I just tested it.

 

I changed 1 Flame Burst every 15 seconds to 2 every 15 seconds. I just let 1 Flame Thrower instead of 6.

 

You get 2-3 extra Rail Shots over 2 minutes, but that can't compensate using Flame Burst, our worst dmg/heat skill. You get better heat management (like 10 heat less every 2 minute) but you also do 10 dps less as you are wasting the extra heat on worst skills.

 

Remember Flame Burst is only 30% chance to trigger a Rail Shot, so you need 3.33 Flame Burst (53 heat) to get a Rail Shot on average (-8 heat).

 

Also you can easily change points around and check the dps. Puncture seems to be 3 dps better than Flame Surge for a 23/0/18 build, so equivalent. That's with 30% AR, I think raid bosses have that or more, I'm trying to get some data about this.

Edited by MorningMusume
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I'll get the spreadsheet more friendly for build changes so you can test all that stuff by yourself. Btw, if you do extra Flame Burst you lose damage, I just tested it.

 

I changed 1 Flame Burst every 15 seconds to 2 every 15 seconds. I just let 1 Flame Thrower instead of 6.

 

You get 2-3 extra Rail Shots over 2 minutes, but that can't compensate using Flame Burst, our worst dmg/heat skill. You get better heat management (like 10 heat less every 2 minute) but you also do 10 dps less as you are wasting the extra heat on worst skills.

 

Remember Flame Burst is only 30% chance to trigger a Rail Shot, so you need 3.33 Flame Burst (53 heat) to get a Rail Shot on average (-8 heat).

 

Also you can easily change points around and check the dps. Puncture seems to be 3 dps better than Flame Surge for a 23/0/18 build, so equivalent. That's with 30% AR, I think raid bosses have that or more, I'm trying to get some data about this.

 

30% sounds consistent enough for most of them, I'm not sure if there is a point to trying to get more specific than that without parsers.

 

I could try to run some numbers, but your findings aren't anywhere near mine on Flame Burst/Rocket Punch/Rail Shot. I'm not in game right now so I can't I can't compare tooltips and I'm not at my laptop which has your spreadsheet so I can't fiddle with numbers.

 

I'll see what I can fiddle with over the next couple of days.

 

I also think you're starting to see what I'm getting at here. You're underestimating Flame Burst for a couple of reasons. One, it ignores Armor. Depending on Raid Composition this means it either lags a lot behind RP and RS, or not much. Also, as you're seeing, the more you Flame Burst the more efficient and stable your rotation becomes, not less.

 

Flame Burst might not be "efficient" compared to our other attacks, but it is above and beyond Rapid Shots. There is a breakpoint (which I achieve more often than not with Shield Vents while tanking) where Rapid Shots drop out of the equation entirely.

Edited by chainsawsamurai
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I don't ignore anything, my spreadsheet has Armor in count when doing calculations. Flame Burst does 947 dmg on average on a boss with my gear. That's averaging crits also. 111 dmg / heat. Is our worst dmg/heat single target skill. Flamethrower does 255 dmg / heat on single target. Unload has more than 1000 dmg / heat, and you probably never use it because you are fishing for FB procs.

 

And 30% is not consistent enough, that's prejudice, you see what you wanna see. When you cast Flame Burst you have a 30% chance to get a free Rail Shot, if you cast 2 in a round you have a 51% to get a free Rail Shot, if you cast 3 in a round you have a 66% chance to trigger it, and so on. Even after 6 casts you only have 89% to trigger a Free Rail Shot... that's probability, you can't fight that :p

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I don't ignore anything, my spreadsheet has Armor in count when doing calculations. Flame Burst does 947 dmg on average on a boss with my gear. That's averaging crits also. 111 dmg / heat. Is our worst dmg/heat single target skill. Flamethrower does 255 dmg / heat on single target. Unload has more than 1000 dmg / heat, and you probably never use it because you are fishing for FB procs.

 

And 30% is not consistent enough, that's prejudice, you see what you wanna see. When you cast Flame Burst you have a 30% chance to get a free Rail Shot, if you cast 2 in a round you have a 51% to get a free Rail Shot, if you cast 3 in a round you have a 66% chance to trigger it, and so on. Even after 6 casts you only have 89% to trigger a Free Rail Shot... that's probability, you can't fight that :p

 

I don't have to fight probability:

 

I changed 1 Flame Burst every 15 seconds to 2 every 15 seconds. I just let 1 Flame Thrower instead of 6.

 

You get 2-3 extra Rail Shots over 2 minutes, but that can't compensate using Flame Burst, our worst dmg/heat skill. You get better heat management (like 10 heat less every 2 minute) but you also do 10 dps less as you are wasting the extra heat on worst skills.

 

Your math already proved it. More Flame Bursts is better Heat efficiency. You're half-stepping the math here for a couple of reasons. You dropped 125 Heat worth of Flame Thrower, replaced it with 128 Heat worth of Flame Burst and came out 10 Heat ahead. Don't think of the Rail Shot proc as 8 heat, it is 14.5 heat and a global cooldown spent using one of our hardest hitting attacks for free.

 

--You've already taken Flamethrower down to nothing and only compensated for 1 more Flame Burst every 15 seconds. This rewarded better Heat efficiency (on the spec which already has the best Heat index) but it wasn't enough to compensate for the lack of Flamethrowers. You essentially took away all of the Flamethrower damage without actually compensating a proper amount of Flame Bursts.

 

--Your appraisal of Unload is awfully one-sided. Those damage numbers match very well while you are not being hit. When you are being hit your channel is disrupted and you lose a tick. This means that, while tanking, Unload neither goes a Full 3 seconds nor does as much damage as you're claiming it does.

 

(I'm testing this now, I'm not sure if the channel is disrupted if you dodge but it currently looks like you still lose a tick even if you Shield an attack).

 

My rudimentary testing (which I'm more than happy to do more in depth if you'd like) shows that I'm losing 1/4 of the damage of Unload on average every time I'm hit during it. The size of the hit seems to matter and that 1/4 lost is only when taking an average of ~1300 damage in one hit during the channel.

 

 

The reason why I don't feel that more testing for Unload matters is because, without parsing, testing it is very tedious and I don't think I'm even capable of getting enough quality data to attempt to figure out the formula for cast push back on Unload. Fact of the matter is that at a 3 second cast time a boss will hit you during it and Unload will therefor lose both damage and channel time and heat efficiency on both counts. Unload is overrated. Although it is significantly better for ST than it is to Pyro since the damage of the Cylinder procs is frontloaded.

 

(Side note: Flamethrower is fine, it doesn't lose a tick when hit).

 

--Counting the loss of Unload damage while taking only a single hit during Unload of a magnitude averaging 1313 damage (which is very low compared to any boss that's worth anything) 2 Flame Bursts are already better DPS against a target with only 20% Armor mitigation. It might not be "Heat efficient" but, again, this is a spec which is already the most Heat efficient of the 4 posted and that makes the best use of Vent Heat as an offensive cooldown. Heat efficiency be damned, you need more Flame Bursts and Rail Shots.

 

The repercussions of this are two fold. One, Unload has too much weight in your calculations likely, potentially an entire extra 200-300 damage from an Ion proc as well (due to not getting the occasional proc because of lost ticks).

 

 

 

Not that I particularly care, the spec meets my needs and I don't anticipate switching any time soon. In practice, this spec Tanks extremely aggressively and it fits my style. However if you're going to post data like this which could turn others away, while getting the basics of the rotation wrong is akin to saying Adv Proto doesn't do enough damage and isn't Heat efficient because you're spamming Retractable Blade for Charged Gauntlet procs.

 

 

The problem with all of this is, I don't know where the hell to even begin testing it, let alone making it all work on a spreadsheet. So I probably would go ahead and let it all chill out in a Vaccuum for the time being anyway. Your spread sheet is more than adequate, I'm just trying to prod folks away from Unload while tanking, especially in this spec.

 

If you do want any help, let me know. I'm not much for fiddling with spreadsheets but I'm a really ****** programmer (the censored word is poo-poo) and have thought about putting together a basic C++ simulator for things like this.

Edited by chainsawsamurai
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I don't wanna change your way to play, so this will probably be my last post about this topic. You can wait for combat log / simulations in you have no faith on averages.

 

You are focusing too much on Unload. Unload is just a filler before Rapid Shots on the HB rotation. If you get hit once, you lose 0.5 seconds, or 1/6 of the damage and the procs. Is still the best damage/heat skill we have (except the infinite ones). I don't have it on CD because is not needed, is just a filler than does more dps than extra Flame Burst with the HB build.

 

And my spreadsheet takes in account all the heat gains from Rail Shot, both the PPA and the Superheated Rail, but the PPA are not included in the Rail Shot, because is clearer to see it in the spreadsheet.

 

Flame Burst has a heat balance of 8.5 (16-7.5). It has a 30% chance of getting a free Rail Shot that vents 8 heat, so is a 30% of extra 8 heat. The free Rail Shot doesn't help with heat because you use a Rapid Shots (that is also free) in the other build, so is only a dmg increase on the total rotation (Rail Shot - Rapid Shots).

 

30% of 8 heat is 2.4 heat, you can say Flame Burst has a heat balance of 6.1 heat, also for the sake of completion, let's add the extra dmg too. A Rail Shot - Rapid Shots is 632 dmg extra, a 30% of that is 190, so the new dmg/heat from Flame Burst is (947+190)/6.1 = 186 dmg/heat. Still worst than Flame Thrower at 255 dmg/heat.

 

Problem is you can't just focus on one thing and conclude anything. Everything is interlaced on the rotation, that's why the best way is to build a full rotation.

Edited by MorningMusume
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No, I get it, and I certainly didn't want to sound combative (I even had my GF read it and make sure I didn't sound like a jerk cause some people take me personally on account of how blunt I can be).

 

I think my issue with this is that you can build a Heat stable, full rotation for the other specs and it works. During a 15 second rotation you will use these abilities X times, you'll vent Y heat, and over the course of 2 minutes you'll additionally do Y a couple more times, etc.

 

Pyro really doesn't work like that and doesn't sim well. It's even hard to quantify the extra value of Vent Heat to the Pyro build due to how aggressively you can "red line" at the start of a pull for extra threat, and it is damn impossible to try to type out a "rotation" that is statistically sound without being too much or too little.

 

Like I said before, your spreadsheet is more than adequate (it's damn miraculous considering how little information we have) and I really didn't want to attempt to say otherwise.

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No problem, anyway you didn't sounded like a jerk or anything, but my english skills are pretty mediocre to comunicate stuff :p

 

Yeah, Pyro is the harder build to do averages for, and I'll probably work a bit more on it when I finish the UI polishing I'm doing right now.

 

I'll love to do some simulations but I want to focus on the spreadsheet first until it feels finished. And I'll probably extent it to Powertech DPS too.

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No problem, anyway you didn't sounded like a jerk or anything, but my english skills are pretty mediocre to comunicate stuff :p

 

Yeah, Pyro is the harder build to do averages for, and I'll probably work a bit more on it when I finish the UI polishing I'm doing right now.

 

I'll love to do some simulations but I want to focus on the spreadsheet first until it feels finished. And I'll probably extent it to Powertech DPS too.

 

Yeah I'm a very bare bones programmer, I don't normally do UIs unless I've got some sort of development kit I'm working in. I deal with command line old school C++ stuff for my basic programs, and I'd likely do the Sim the same way. These programs aren't pretty, but they work.

 

I haven't really put too much thought into it, but I imagine it wouldn't take too complicated of a program to do a DPS sim which accounts for Heat management and rotation concerns on a GCD by GCD basis.

 

Anyway, like I said if you need any help with anything let me know. Great work so far.

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is advanced tools better than prototype cylinders in the regular build?

 

The difference is minimal (Advance Tools is like 1 dps better, or 0.1%) in my spreadsheet, so Advance Tools is the best options for quality of life issues more than dps/threat.

 

If you don't use Flame Thrower on CD then is a dps lose, and you'll be better with prototype cylinders.

Edited by MorningMusume
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Thanks.

What do you think of oil slick? not sure it actually works..

 

It works - Use it on cd on progression/nonfarm content for sure. The only time ill skip it in my priority list is when we are pushing an enrage timer or i notice my healers full-on dpsing.

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The rotation is basically: Rocket Punch, Heat Blast, Flame Thrower and Rail Shot on CD. Flame Burst every 15 seconds for debuff, a few Unload when heat is manageable and everything is on cooldown, Rapid Shots as filler.

 

Does this mean that we should use the skills in that order? "Rocket Punch -> Heat Blast -> Flamethrower -> Rail Shot." Or do you mean use all of them on every CD? I'm only a bit confused, sorry.

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Does this mean that we should use the skills in that order? "Rocket Punch -> Heat Blast -> Flamethrower -> Rail Shot." Or do you mean use all of them on every CD? I'm only a bit confused, sorry.

 

I only mean to use them on CD, not in that order. The order depends on actual heat, but you wanna priorize the hard hitters: RP > FT > RS.

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I just want to go on record saying I really appreciate your work on both the specs and the spreadsheet as I found both to be invaluable resources. This helped me iron out my PvE rotation and answer some questions I had about itemization. Keep up the great work!
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I find myself asking what to do a lot. With using RP/FT/Rail Shot, I want to use flameburst a lot more during the CD phases if I get unlucky. You specifically said not to use rapid shots or flameburst as a filler; what are you using then?
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I find myself asking what to do a lot. With using RP/FT/Rail Shot, I want to use flameburst a lot more during the CD phases if I get unlucky. You specifically said not to use rapid shots or flameburst as a filler; what are you using then?

 

Maybe a misunderstanding? What spec are you talking about? Of course Rapid Shots is the filler of every build (Flame Burst depends).

 

Also this calculations are a bit outdated, the spreadsheet now is more precise, I'll need to re-do them when I have time...

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