Stormgaleb Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 That attitude isn't sustainable in any kind of marketable game today. BoP items are needed for there to be a reason for the general populace to level a crew skill, and they need to be desirable as well. I'm sure some people like to wax nostalgic about the 'good old days' where people crafted just because they could in <insert favorite niche game> but those days are long past. Feel free to lament the fact but the reality remains, if I can't get a personal, otherwise unattainable advantage from leveling a crafting profession my time is better spent just farming credits. Modern MMO's, or modern MMO players if it makes you more comfortable/superior, is all about 'whatever gives the most pluses'. You don't have to like it but that's the way it is. You want me to do something in the game? Give me a compelling reason. And if you would have done my entire post as a quote you just proved my point. WoW ruined an entire generation of gaming. With an attatude like that go back to WoW where thay will hand feed you through the game where you need no skill or brain cells to play. Try playing a game where you can craft and trade/barter for items you would like from other crafters. Don't knock it till ya try it. Like I said you shoulda Quoted my entire post and then I wouldnt have had to replay to your Lazzy play style and everything being about you. Rember your playing a MMO not an MM-Me. Its about whats best for everyone as a whole not the minority thats not gona be here later after these changes brake the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thanks for the changes. It was getting to the point where i was feeling gimped without having chosen biochem. Just having one skill that is considered by all player groups to be best was not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilliztra Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) ..they are however no longer the ‘golden ticket’ into endgame content. Actually they are. Even with the changes you made to them, ANY serious raider will pick up Biochem, unless they have invested many milion credits into something else. Dont beat your selfe up over a minor nerf. It is the reusable aspect of the 3 items that makes them viable plus the stat bonus (however minor). This is a time saver, a HUGE money saver, and a boost to your combat abilities. Why would I not take this over something else? Your changes fixes nothing with the first two issues, and only tolken changes to the latter. - And finally, they are WAY to easy to craft, and does not require any serious materials.. come on.. Biometric Crystal Alloy? Should atleast have been Self-Perpetuating Power Cell. .. But I guess PvP'ers would just be that much more upset about the crafting of thise, wich in my oppionon just further illustrates the issue with thise items. Edited January 15, 2012 by Zilliztra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilliztra Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Edit: double post. Slow forum. Edited January 15, 2012 by Zilliztra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SsjChrisKo Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 How do they not comprehend that all professions need a form of passive bonus or active direct bonus.... It really is not hard, add extra slots, extra stats, extra on use item mods. You cant expect to let people find high end items in raids, that they will craft one day, to maybe make them equal to another profession.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valperion Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 How do they not comprehend that all professions need a form of passive bonus or active direct bonus.... It really is not hard, add extra slots, extra stats, extra on use item mods. You cant expect to let people find high end items in raids, that they will craft one day, to maybe make them equal to another profession.... But that requires work, its a lot easier to nerf other crew skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninoss Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 As somebody proposed a long time ago: reusable consumables should have only a short period of time after first use that you can use them, after that they should expire. A week tops. Other way to do it would be to make their material costs EXTREMELY high, and IMO - open them for everyone. This one it would be an alternative. One time investment of several million credits for lifetime medpack or buying them for every raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONERAVE Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 It is a shame to see a few hardcore players spoiling the game for the rest of us. Once again an mmo designer bows to the requirements of the minority. I took biochem from the very beginning because it seemed like the most useful, but great, it is going to get nerfed. I really am not liking the direction that this game is taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmoredJuneBug Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Like I said you shoulda Quoted my entire post and then I wouldnt have had to replay to your Lazzy play style and everything being about you. I summed up the gist of your post, namely that you're begging BioWare to cater to an eiltist attitude from a playerbase market that doesn't exist. Unsurprisingly you chose to cement that attitude and complain about how things are rather than acknowledging the fact. The days of World of Workcraft is over, people don't play games to contribute their own content anymore. Not that they ever did to any real extent. This is, like any game that hopes to be popular, a theme park game. It's all about incentives. If high-end crafting doesn't provide unique incentives, and without BoP items it doesn't, there's no reason for the vast majority of players to even bother with that content. Which would obviously be bad. I said that you didn't have to like it, and you obviously don't, but that doesn't make it any less true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grmp Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 The design intent for the game is that your choice of crafting profession should not become a requirement or ‘gating’ mechanism for participating in competitive content (PvP) and high end endgame challenges. While we certainly want players that engage in the crafting game to reap rewards for their effort, we don’t want one or two crafting professions to become the de facto ‘must have’ choice for everyone, which is what happened here. Please don't Balance the Game around the E-Peeners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafurian Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I just hope theyll bring Artifice into a useful skill..no one really needs hilts/enhancements and once you step into raids artifice is complete garbage. At least with biochem you get another on-use effect from the Adrenal. My Suggestion: Unique Artifice Color Crystals that are a lil higher in ilevel than the ones from raids but become bound as soon as theyre created (plus makes any weapon bound if you slide it in a BOE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgaleb Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 If high-end crafting doesn't provide unique incentives, and without BoP items it doesn't, there's no reason for the vast majority of players to even bother with that content. Which would obviously be bad. Then go back to WoW. And Leave this game alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilstarfish Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thanks for making my Guardian even weaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altairien Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) The design intent for the game is that your choice of crafting profession should not become a requirement or ‘gating’ mechanism for participating in competitive content (PvP) and high end endgame challenges. I can't take what you say here seriously at all as long as you continue to have BoP and "requires 400 skill to use" crafted items. I can drive my quite complicated car quite well without knowing how to build one tyvm, so why are crafted speeders BoP? Nothing in crafting should be BoP (either materials or final products btw) or have skill gates. As long as you have BoP or skill gated crafted items, decisions about which crew skill to choose will be heavily or solely based on those items instead of "what would this character enjoy doing." It will happen just as healing priests in WoW (when I left that game) had to be tailors to craft certain gear or else they couldn't raid. If you're going to mimic a WoW system then expect negative WoW results. Edited January 15, 2012 by Altairien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyzahna Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I would say, rather than nerfing the BioChem consumables, make it more possible for a BioChem to craft re-usable consumables for others, which are perhaps Bind When Used, or something. And perhaps a fair bit harder/more expensive. That way you won't need to go BioChem anymore as someone else can make you almost as good, or just as good, re-usable consumables. On the plus for the players using BioChem, you get a good item to sell to people, and you get easier access to your own re-usable consumables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubert Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 How about instead of nerfing biochem, which doesn't need it, you simply make other professions have a reason to even exist? The "nerf" to cybertech grenades, at least the requiring cybertech 400, is fine. Nerfing the damage to them...that's a bad move. As it stands, unless you make biochem reusables usable by anyone, or nerf them into the ground, biochem will always be the profession to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velnora Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm really not happy with these changes at all either. The real problem, as many have voiced, is that other professions are not as useful. Biochem does not really need a nerf. I find that if I need to use my medpacs, I'm probably going to die before the 90 seconds is over anyway, so why are you going to make the time even longer to use again? I'm already a glass cannon as a consular, and die a ton already. And since mobs gain full health when I die, it just seems like an endless battle (and finding a group to do missions is hard enough as it is!) Also, get rid of this Binds on Pickup thing. That's really irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmoredJuneBug Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Then go back to WoW. And Leave this game alone *sigh* Your nerdrage is misplaced, I'm not the odd one out here - you are. That's the point, BoP craftables is what it takes to keep the majority population interested. I wish the game could cater to the minority who still live games, rather than play them, they way you'd like as well but that's just not possible. As long as you have BoP or skill gated crafted items, decisions about which crew skill to choose will be heavily or solely based on those items instead of "what would this character enjoy doing." Characters don't enjoy doing anything at all, players do. And players, as a general rule, don't enjoy investing time and effort for no reward. Which is exactly what crew skills without BoP items would represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altairien Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Characters don't enjoy doing anything at all, players do. Pardon me for injecting roleplay as a possible deciding factor while playing a MMOR(ole)P(lay)G. And players, as a general rule, don't enjoy investing time and effort for no reward. Which is exactly what crew skills without BoP items would represent. I will have to disagree. I also play LOTRO, BoP for crafted end items isn't a factor in crafting (only certain high-end crafting guild LI relics are BoP; however, they are the same and available for every single crafter), and crafting is done by casuals and leet raiders alike. But, whatever. Bioware's intentions for this game have become clear enough. Edited January 15, 2012 by Altairien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky_walkerPL Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) NO craftable items being Bind on Pickup. EVER. I'm fine with items that require certain crewskill to use it - let's say that certain stims are injected in so complicate way that it requires someone with medical (biochem 400) knowledge to use it but NOTHING should be bound to it's creator. And: BoPs won't magically fix the crafting, lol. Who came with that idea in a first place? It doesn't make ANY sense. Items making every crafting profession equally useful at high level will. If there is a need of making stuff limited to profession (with which I disagree in first place - all the craftable items should be free for use by everyone) let it be a crewskill limit, NOT binding on pickup. It only makes more trouble (people jumping professions for best grants of all) while removing huge part of what crafting is about in a first place (GTN!!!!!) Edited January 15, 2012 by Sky_walkerPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopidboiy Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 What bugs me isn't so much the particulars of this or any nerf; it's the fact that this is the 3rd major nerf/reduction in the first billing cycle. It's obvious that they are focused on ho-hum MMO things like endgame balance and PvP over everything else. I'm not sure if there's a disconnect between marketing and the devs, but I was sold on a story based game from Bioware. This was supposed to be KOTOR: Origins... Are you being serious? A story-driven MMOrpg, yes. This game has never been advertised as anything else. If you thought this was going to be KOTOR III (or whatever other fancy titles you want to make up on the spot) then the disconnect is between your imagination and your eyes/ears. That being said. All I really have to say, in regards to the OP, is: cool story bro. Yeah, sorry, but I've got a Jedi with Synthweaving still holding out (in vain, I know) for some sort of magical wonder patch that is going to actually make my crafting choice useful. Still, with that in mind, even I can see that this was pretty much a laughable change. You didn't want BioChem to be a mandatory skill that people were being "forced" to take? Well, let's see. Before, people would level it to 400, make their re-usables, then drop it for another skill. Now, they have to keep it, as those items now actually require you to be a BioChem to use them? Do I have this right so far? Soooooo.. you basically just made it even more of a mandate, as opposed to actually trying to lessen the need for BioChem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vysse Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 You know I am a little upset about this. Biochem makes the least amount of money on our server because alot of people do not bother buying medpacs and implants only sell well for awhile then everyone has one and that is that. The adrenals sell decently but with the new cooldown rules it will decrease in sales. Stims do not do well either. I just feel like that was one good reason to be Biochem and now your taking a big crap on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJatwhal Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 why not just remove the biochem skill "use" requirement? why do devs always go to the nerf bat instead of making things right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJatwhal Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 wrote a bunch of stuff with the timeless fallacy that "everybody plays a game the way I play it because I'm so mainstream." read L33T... You're wrong- completely wrong. YOU have the elitist adventurer mentality. Do you pose at transition spots with your gear? If you want to prove yourself wrong just go read the crewskill forums and this thread about people complaining about useless crafting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoobooMagoo Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I only read the first couple of pages, so I don't know if this has been mentioned or not. The real problem is that nothing other than biochem and cybertech give anything at endgame. I think that every profession needs to have some sort of consumable to make the choice worth it. I haven't played many MMOs but I remember when I played WoW you could make things like armor patches or sharpening stones. If the crew skills had similar consumable items there would be incentives to keep those skills. Maybe Armortech could make armor plates for heavy armor, synthweaving could make patches for light and medium armor, armstech could make optimization kits for guns, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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