RP combat - emote or PvP?

[dathmirx]

I'd like to hear the general opinion on how to approach this. I myself prefer to actually duel/PvP, since this is a game after all, and in my opinion, if you want to play a character that's a good fighter, then try to actually get good at fighting.

 

Other people prefer to just play out fights in emotes, and while I respect it and play along if need be, I honestly don't see why when we're playing a game built around fighting.

 

I do feel, however, that a mix of the two is ideal. Emotes while actually dueling makes everything more interesting.

 

So, opinions, please!

Edited January 13, 2012 by dathmirx

[DuchessOfKvetch]

Everyone has their preference. The PvP-rpers think the free form fighters are crazy, but we have our weird little reasons. Most of it has to do with enjoying the excuse to emote action scenes. It's sort of like comparing the diff between turn based and real time strategy; each have their fans. The former grants immediate results, the latter allows time to think and strategize the best move.

 

And while some folks can't understand why you'd ever want to remove game mechanics from a conflict, others remove the mechanics element so they can concentrate explicitly on the story.

 

You'd have to see a -GOOD- FFRP combat acted out to understand a little, I suppose. And those can be hard to find done well. FFRP combat is supposed to be more about making the -scene- look cool. It should be 2 roleplayers co-directing a scene for the benefit of an audience (onlookers) - it is NOT really meant to be competitive in the normal sense. You are trying to put on a show. Not "win".

 

Think about what benefits the overall story arc. Of course- bar brawls? Who cares? But for a PLOT, who wins can be important - and who loses can come back and wreak more havoc later, perhaps to those personages slightly more vulnerable... *wink*

 

I do agree, though, that if you want people to "buy into" the story that your PC is powerful, you should probably be able to back it up somehow, since not everyone is going to take it your word at face value. But what about the guy who's gone to the trouble of getting to level 50, is an excellent roleplayer and an asset to any storyline (and NO, I am not talking about myself!), but is simply not that good of a twitch gamer/pvper? He shouldn't be automatically ostracized from ever winning RP fights.

 

Story comes first.

 

To each their own, though. Neither is better than the other, so arguing about it is pointless.

Edited January 13, 2012 by DuchessOfKvetch

[ErikModi]

I'd say it depends partly on what you're trying to accomplish.

 

If, as suggested above, the scene is for the benefit of onlookers, then RP it out in emotes, as the outcome had already probably been mutually agreed on in advance.

 

If two characters are actually coming to blows for whatever reason, really trying to stop each other/beat each other/prove who has the biggest schwartz, then an actual duel is probably the way to go, since it removes the "I win!" "No, I win!" factor.

[DuchessOfKvetch]

When there's a chance for OOC drama, I usually suggest a LOT of OOC communication. Or even dueling, in some cases, if both parties are into it.

 

If they're friends, and/or have a "trust" relationship, you can leave it to chance, which is still the most fun. With an evenly matched setup, it can end up being a battle of creativity (ie, who uses their environment more and reacts to the setting best).

 

Remember, never be a sore loser no matter what. Even if the other player was obviously god-moding in your opinion. It makes you look worse than him/her. Take it in stride, keep a sense of humor about it, and ham up your loss. Word gets around FAST in an RP community about which people are the better sports and the most fun to get into fights with.

 

And hilariously enough, I have often seen the women go away with the losers to "tend thier wounds". ;-)

[Darth_Malady]

I am RP-PvE, but I prefer /duel because:

 

* There is no god-mode. It's either you can beat me or you cannot.

* It is more compelling and fun to observe and doesn't spam the RP channels.

* Text emotes are a pain to decipher and require a lot of coordination.

 

That said, I only text emote with trusted RPers.

[Darth_Slaine]

While some situations circumstances might demand one particular form of combat in general either method can work. The key thing is that both players agree on what system they will use. Of course this is a lot easier when it is taking place between friends.

 

Where I think things get tricky is when combat occurs between people who don't really know each other and would both like to win. The most successful rule for that sort of thing, in my experience, has been...

 

The side that initiates combat yields the right to choose the method of combat.

 

That means if I decide to attack you in a Cantina or I take the first shot, or swing or whatever, you - as the victim of aggression -- get to choose how we settle it.

 

This prevents people from starting unwanted combats just because they feel they can win - your 30 level bonus might not help you in a pure-emote duel, or your level 4 character may have just made a big mistake in challenging a Darth when the /duel commences.

 

Additionally, RPers who support one method of combat over another will always say that they care more about the story than winning and "if a lvl 59 came along I would be happy to lose to him." This is their chance as it takes the advantage from the aggressor and gives it to the challenged party.

 

The idea is of course based on the challenged party chooses the weapons method of old school real world dueling that you still see in Looney Tunes cartoons.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[dathmirx]

I'd say that something like a barfight may be better done in emotes, for example "Blabla smashes a bottle on the bar and swings it towards blabla2's head", but a real fight, say a lightsaber duel, would be better in actual PvP with the inclusion of emotes.

Now of course, the outcome of the fight doesn't have to depend on who actually lost all of his HP first - that can still be decided beforehand.

 

I just feel that, as a level 30, walking around in a bar full of 50's, knowing they can all beat the crap out of me, is exciting. It just really helps my immersion. Naturally my character would be careful and cautious, and naturally I don't want my character to get beaten to a pulp, so I feel what he's supposed to feel. It helps the experience for me and makes my character seem more human, in a way. Knowing that I could just type an emote and suddenly I stand toe to toe with a sith lord in a fight, just doesn't seem right to me.

 

I do see your points however, and I respect them. It's an interesting topic to discuss, though.

Edited January 13, 2012 by dathmirx

[JadeBranch]

If you're an RPer you should expect to have to coordinate your RP and cooperate with other RPers. OOC talk can be very effective in making RP an enjoyable experience for everyone.

 

That means...

 

Instead of getting into a conflict and not saying anything OOCly, don't be shy to talk to the RPer personally, and work out something that you both might enjoy. This method is done often for RP that isn't even combat related.

 

But yeah, like already said, it's difference between liking real time action RPGs and turn based RPGs. Take your pick and make sure the person you're fighting is comfortable with it.

[DuchessOfKvetch]

Another consideration is:

 

If you do want to do the duel thing, DON'T do it in the middle of a crowded RP scene where it is going to cause a big disruption or lots of graphic fx to fly around. Go outside somewhere.

 

Even with purely emoted fights, this is good advice, though. If you throw down around other people, expect them to try to get involved. This is another route for "bad drama" to factor in, because people can justifiably argue that their character would intervene, even if you want the fight to be between just two people. And trying to sort out emotes becomes exponentially tricky the more people are involved in the brawl, because people -will- end up typing at the same time, but clicking enter at different rates and dealing with lag, etc.

[arcaspiff]

i like the dueling form based on the fact that im worried i wont be able to type my actions as fast as the other person.

 

If its a thing where we can take turns and point counter point type situation, I'd be willing to try it out.

[Revelationjp]

Good discussion! In general, I prefer actual combat to emoted combat, mostly because it limits the overacting factor, and, let's face it, when you're roleplaying, whether it's D&D or TOR, you have stats attached to your character for a reason. They represent how "good" you are. No GM is going to let you walk into his game and rp a god who has the power to slay all around him (unless that GM wants his tires slashed) because it limits the fun for other players. Same principle applies here. When you're a level 12 sith assassin, "i'm a extra powerful force user who no one can beat" only flies as far as the first gold mob that pounds you down. I know my examples are extreme, but (in my experience) the more you let your group stray from the 'core' ruleset, the closer to my examples things tend to get. Now, that being said, things like barfights mentioned above, or things worked out ooc in advance i have no issue with at all.

[Bobinator]

Ehhh its touchy...RP combat is normally god mod all the way...DODGE DODGE STRIKE DODGE OMG YOU CANT DODGE THAT IGNORED BAD RPER!

 

Maybe if you set up a roll system...sure...PvP always works but its not really that fair in my opinion but it always works.

[Darth_Slaine]

We should also keep in mind that no one should feel forced to enter into combat-RP. There will be times when a player attacks your character, sometimes at random, when you have no interest in fighting. No one can make you fight, nor are you a bad RPer because you choose to ignore out-of-the-blue attacks on your person.

 

Just in the same way that no one would be expected to enter in ERP or what have you, no one needs to agree to let themselves be attacked simply because someone else wants to attack them.

 

Now, this does not mean that you should enter into the combat and then decide no attacks touch you, rather you should send the other player an OOC message at the start opting out of the conflict and hopefully they will Death from Above someone else in the Cantina.

 

We should never be attacking someone without having received their permission to do so first.

[DuchessOfKvetch]

Ehhh its touchy...RP combat is normally god mod all the way...DODGE DODGE STRIKE DODGE OMG YOU CANT DODGE THAT IGNORED BAD RPER!

 

Maybe if you set up a roll system...sure...PvP always works but its not really that fair in my opinion but it always works.

 

That is a problem with the player, not the system. Imagine if you were playing a game of chess with someone who decided he could move all his pieces at once?

 

I've found that green/younger rpers can fall into this sort of behavior, which isn't playing fair, but sometimes they just don't know any better.

 

I know it took quite a lot of time for the community on my former MMO to fully mature. Ironically, many of the folks who started off as the sloppiest rpers ended up a few years later being upstanding role models of the community, leading huge guilds, and no one remembered their roots as noobs. ;-)

[Jeia]

Personally it depends on the situation, but I prefer emoting IC combat, as it can be very immersive. A combination of both can also be a lot of fun.

 

Whatever method is used, I will never respond to power emotes, unless it's someone I know well and have already agreed to accept them.

[Remair]

It really depends on the situation. Anything with more than two people really needs to be PvPed or it gets too slow. Even with just two people emote fights can take a while. The problem with both is both parties trying to hard to win. With emotes this leads to neither person ever going down, or even worse poweremoting. With PvP it leads to people spamming their best attacks without any thought it the IC situation.

 

The best system I have seen is a mix of the two. Actual damage is dealt using PvP but it is broken up with emote descriptors. Emote fights can be very well done but I find it best for the two people to agree who "wins" first, then the emotes are just about putting on a show for the audience.

 

Another problem with PvP is when your IC skills do not match those of your character. You may be RPing a moisture farmer, mechanic or bartender but have a fully leveled BH character. The other may be RPing a legendary solider but have a low level toon. It makes no sense for you to wipe the floor with them but in PvP you will struggle not to.

[dathmirx]

It really depends on the situation. Anything with more than two people really needs to be PvPed or it gets too slow. Even with just two people emote fights can take a while. The problem with both is both parties trying to hard to win. With emotes this leads to neither person ever going down, or even worse poweremoting. With PvP it leads to people spamming their best attacks without any thought it the IC situation.

 

The best system I have seen is a mix of the two. Actual damage is dealt using PvP but it is broken up with emote descriptors. Emote fights can be very well done but I find it best for the two people to agree who "wins" first, then the emotes are just about putting on a show for the audience.

 

Another problem with PvP is when your IC skills do not match those of your character. You may be RPing a moisture farmer, mechanic or bartender but have a fully leveled BH character. The other may be RPing a legendary solider but have a low level toon. It makes no sense for you to wipe the floor with them but in PvP you will struggle not to.

 

This is also part of my point - if you want to RP a legendary soldier, for example - you would naturally level up a trooper or bounty hunter to 50, so you can back up your story. If you're RPing a moisture farmer, then it only makes sense to roll a smuggler or maybe an imperial agent. Why anyone would RP a farmer on their Sith Juggernaut is beyond me, but oh well.

[Remair]

This is also part of my point - if you want to RP a legendary soldier, for example - you would naturally level up a trooper or bounty hunter to 50, so you can back up your story. If you're RPing a moisture farmer, then it only makes sense to roll a smuggler or maybe an imperial agent. Why anyone would RP a farmer on their Sith Juggernaut is beyond me, but oh well.

 

Well your ingame class does not necessarily have anything to do with your RP character. We (or at least most) RPers completely ignore the current ingame story so why not more. Why does your OOC choice of what you want to do outside of RP have to effect your IC abilities? If you want to reach the end of your chosen classes storyline but have no interest in playing someone able to throw force powers around why not?

 

It doesn't make sense to tie IC ability to how much RL time you have to play the game.

[dathmirx]

Well your ingame class does not necessarily have anything to do with your RP character. We (or at least most) RPers completely ignore the current ingame story so why not more. Why does your OOC choice of what you want to do outside of RP have to effect your IC abilities? If you want to reach the end of your chosen classes storyline but have no interest in playing someone able to throw force powers around why not?

 

It doesn't make sense to tie IC ability to how much RL time you have to play the game.

 

I'm not saying that this is something you have to do of course, what I'm saying is that I don't understand the reasoning. If you want to RP a trooper, isn't it more fun to be a trooper? If you really don't want to RP a force user, then why would you want to play as one? That's what I don't understand. I don't understand why you'd want to create two different games almost, separating the core game and RP. Except for the class storyline, which would make no sense to bring into an RP environment.

 

But if that's how some people play it, then it's none of my business and it's totally fine with me.

Edited January 14, 2012 by dathmirx

[Chemlak]

Ah, ye olde "X vs Y" discussion. How I have missed thee.

 

There are so many schools of thought surrounding this that it's almost impossible to cover all of them, but one thing that most RPers will agree on is that "story is king". Translated: go for whatever you mutually agree will make for the more interesting story.

 

For random conflicts (the bar brawl that keeps being mentioned, for example), the relative uncertainty of actual PvP makes for an interesting choice, all else being equal. For something plot related, it's probably best if it's all agreed beforehand. Just because the outcome is assured, that doesn't mean that the journey to get there has to be boring (for example, we all knew before Episode 3 that Obi Wan was going to beat Anakin and basically dump him in magma, but the thing of interest was how it happened, not that it did).

 

The next important thing I said above is "all else being equal". A level 50 throwing down against a level 15 is going to win. We all know it. If the level 15 character is RPd well, though, the outcome should not necessarily be as assured as the raw numbers suggest. So for such a disparity, I'd suggest prior discussion.

 

It becomes complicated, though, when someone brings out their "level 12 bounty hunter who is Force Sensitive and more powerful than the entire Jedi Council combined". Okay, that's an extreme example, but we've all seen the type. Most of the time people will stop RPing with such a player. But sometimes that player is actually a good RPer, but has stacked "flange" abilities (not represented in-game, but reasonable to assume for RP purposes) to the extent of making them overpowered. In those cases, I would always suggest going for text-emote RP, provided that it is agreed up front that the person running the plot gets to pick the outcome to help the story.

 

If not, well, the character can't back up the cheques the players fingers are writing.

 

So, there is a time and palace for both options, and as mature roleplayers, which we should all be trying to be, we can generally agree which option suits the circumstances.

[Hydranova]

I'm not saying that this is something you have to do of course, what I'm saying is that I don't understand the reasoning. If you want to RP a trooper, isn't it more fun to be a trooper? If you really don't want to RP a force user, then why would you want to play as one? That's what I don't understand. I don't understand why you'd want to create two different games almost, separating the core game and RP. Except for the class storyline, which would make no sense to bring into an RP environment.

 

But if that's how some people play it, then it's none of my business and it's totally fine with me.

 

Eh. Some people base some of what their rp char is off of their class. IE, a trooper could become, say, riot police.

 

But anyways, relating to emote combat, I think it's always a give-and-take thing. While minor damages (The blaster shot grazed his robe! The trainging blade hit his knee!) is usually ok with me, I find that major attacks need to be organized better, possibly via a roll system.

[Avylen]

Honestly I think the PvP vs Emote question is better answered by circumstance than anything else. Let me give you an example: My character gets drunk and decides to slug someone in a Cantina... try to handle a bare knuckle brawl with the a duel flag. You just can't.

 

Another example: My character wishes to drug your drink before making a show of beating you in a 'fair fight' that wasn't at all fair. Again, duel doesn't do such a plan any justice.

 

Duels work beautifully for solving the simple problem of... dueling! But think for a moment. How -often- in RP are fights a strait up 1v1 with both parties fully prepared and willing to walk ten paces then turn and start.

 

They exist, but there are plenty of other types of PvP that are not half as simple.

 

This also really reminds me of an old quote from a web comic:

"Hah! A pistol? Pistols only do ten damage... oh wait...is this a cutscene?"

Edited January 14, 2012 by Avylen

[Rejor]

Eh, I disagree with some of this, but agree on other points. Personally though, I think the emote combat style is a waste of time. Yes, it makes a great story, but if you have a legitimate reason to be fighting someone, then you better be ready for the consequences, good or bad. If your target is someone high level, then perhaps you should recruit a few people to help you take him down.

 

I say this because I roleplay a bounty hunter. one of the reasons I chose an RP-PVP server was to actually RP a bounty hunter, take jobs, and hunt players that other players want "eliminated". Unfortunately, none of this is happening.

 

It can be done since PVP servers have the contested areas, but no one seems to be taking advantage of ti from an RP standpoint. Honestly, it's quite sad.

 

I understand that some players don't want to take the risk by having RP events in PVP contested areas, but that would just make the experience that much richer.

[ProsaicProse]

Firstly, I'd like to mention; not everyone is a PvPer, or duelist. Nor should every RP outcome be decided by PvP skillz. I've been one of those PvPers on an RP server (different game) that could wipe the floor with all kinds of RPers and really, it wasn't fair, or fun for anyone who RPed conflict with me if I always played that card to get my way in RP. There are some great roleplayers that shouldn't be destined to have their character eternally eat floor because they aren't PvP masters. You start to find people don't want to play with you after a while.

 

However, having said that - I think that how folks handle an RP fight between characters should depend entirely upon your rapport with that other player. If its a frequent RP partner, chances are, emote battles are going to be fun and enjoyable. If they are a stranger, maybe not so much. I guess it's something that should be sorted out case by case depending on the players preferences.

Edited January 15, 2012 by ProsaicProse

[sosolidshoe]

I see emoting as a way to enhance and supplement the game mechanics, not supplant them. I had a great time once in SWG engaged in a speeder chase across the dunes of Tatooine, which was entirely emote-based, but the reason it was emote-based was the lack of combat mechanics while using a speeder. Similarly, I very much enjoy seeing combat between RP'rs where both sides are using descriptive emotes as they fight, an act which is admittedly far simpler when you can use macros.

 

Doing combat entirely through emotes, though, is pretty immersion breaking for me personally. Looking at the chatbox/bubbles and reading this epic struggle between two opponents, then looking up and seeing two characters just standing facing each other, motionless, and the whole thing just takes on a faintly ridiculous quality.

 

An example; bar fights in TOR. You -can- use your fists in combat, animations exist for using the basic attack with no weapon equipped, it just does virtually no damage. I see that as an opportunity to combine game mechanics with imaginative emoting, rather than a fatal flaw in the system that means you either full-emote or don't do it. The same is true of all the combat styles when you think about it; fights in the real world don't play out in the same way they do in MMOs, with both parties standing two feet apart and hitting each other until one falls over; there's movement, lulls in activity while the participants strategise, or reload their weapons, or gather their strength.

 

So, yeah, my answer to the question would be "both", ideally at the same time, with emote-only combat being reserved for fights which are literally impossible to represent through existing game mechanics.