What level of writing should be expected from a video game?

[Matais]

I've been playing TOR for awhile, I think the Sith warrior and Bounty hunter storylines are enjoyable so far. Not the best thing in the world but still enjoyable. However, i do have one question.

 

 

Should the fact that the medium is a video game and not a book make it ok to create subpar or just Basic level of good when it comes to writing characters and stories in general. I guess i am just expecting too much but i really wish a story would try and include the main character in the writing process. What i mean is allow an opportunity for the player to examine not only themeslves but the actions they have made. Through this internal look at oneself the player/main character could be put in a position to decide if what they have done so far is necedarilly what they want to continue doing. They could go through a change of some sort, learn something about themselves that they didn't before. Grow as a character basically.

 

Maybe my expectations are high but i don't think that "Just because a PCC is controlled by the player that there is nothing more to it. Is it so wrong to want the player character to feel involved in the story rather than a prop to it?

 

I know it isn't fair but for example in Planescape torment the game was practically about the main character. Same with Kotor 2, The player character was almost the central focus of the whole game in that Her actions are haunting and she has to overcome her past to face the present and future. Am i saying that all characters should be like the exile? No i am just asking if a video game can ever support the concept of Characters driving the plot and not the plot driving characters.

 

I obviously am not expecting this game to change because of my minor complaint but is it possible for any game in the future to do this?

 

The pro and antagonist being well developed (maybe 3d characters) and at the end their ambitions/ goals would clash and maybe the protagonist might not even win persay. Idk about anyone else but Archdemons/Reapers don't cut it.

 

anyway what are your thoughts?

[Elothox]

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, TOR is the largest voiced media project ever. The sheer amount of content speaks volumes for the amazing work that Bioware did in this case. I have all classes save the Consular off the starting planet, and several now have their ship, and I finished Act 1 on my Trooper main. Keep in mind that you can run through KOTOR comfortably in about 25 hours of gameplay, where as the class story alone for each of the eight classes surpasses that. This is of course not including the huge amount of side plots, and interaction with companions, and even different dialog depending on your race. (Try playing a sith of different races.)

[JengoVETT]

Issue one to insult someones "writing" please be comperable to the english language. I don't mean to be a grammar Nazi but if you intend to nitpick please be aware that you will be nitpicked back. On to more relevant data... The issue with a Kotar story in an MMO is the first M kotar was ment to be a story driven game and with TOR is the most story driven MMO to date (I love that most of my quests actually matter to the story especially my class quests) If you start adding things like decision on how to go its going to be hard to keep the community United. For example you could have a group of 4 in Kotar and conquer almost any challenge in TOR you need a group of people other then NPCs. Those "other living people" are also playing the game and progressing through the story and quest lines. So regardless your not the hero exile your one of many heroes trying to save/destroy the republic. Now although you can do that in either was (light/dark decisions) your goal on either side is always the same... defeat the other side and anyone else that stands in your sides way. In conclusion this game isn't ment to make you feel like Odysseus or Revan or even Chuck Norris... This game is ment to make you feel like part of something bigger that you are working with others for an end game goal... and as we all know thats defeating the... just kidding its getting fat loot!

[Ruliya]

In the spirit of nit-picking Jengo, at least Matais understands the premise of paragraphs ^^

[Deacon-frost]

I think we all at times get very high expectations and in most cases anticipation is greater than the deed. And in turn, expectation often falls short of execution.

So with knowing that it is near impossible to please each person the writing should be judged on its own and not versus other games.

 

I applaud you for wanting more and not settling for mediocre entertainment.

However, I think I find some issue with your post because there are many things to consider.

 

We know that yes, writing a video game is different than book or movie writing. And we cannot forget that this is also writing for an MMO. Still vastly different than other video games and game writing. One should realize that although most of the game is about that main character you are playing, there is a world around them as well. They truly cannot be the 100% center of the universe. The writing is attempting, in my view, to address that.

 

One can easily guess that when you say, do the Gree quests, you are not the only person to ever help out. You can easily see how that maybe at many times the ambassador has had to talk to random Gree and you just happen to walk by at this time for these particular Gree. You can see how that maybe there are several Bounty Hunter competitions going on at any time and you are just in the one called the Great Hunt. Even more so, there are tons of Jedi on ships and they just happen to task you to kill this one. I have not made it through all of the Jedi Knight quest, but it feels like you are not the "chosen one" like in other single player games, but somebody who has great potential.

 

 

When doing your companion's quests we get a window, or at least a chance into their interpersonal relations. It seems to me that all actions, while not represented in the game mechanics, help build a character profile.

Staying consistent in your choices and dialog will flesh out the character and should give you some attachment to them and their story. Much like writing a large story or comic, after a while the characters write themselves. And eventually there will be no question in the choices of dialog you pick because in your head, you character would just say XYZ naturally. At that point its a no brainer and at that point you can see the writing has done it job to pull you in and get you invested in that character.

[JengoVETT]

still grammatically correct which is what matters... I am sorry I just like this game this is what I have been waiting for since I played WoW and was just like... ******* this would be so much cooler if it was in Star Wars!

 

New paragraph.

 

And again, one of the main purposes (Intended or Unintended) Is to make another viable large scale MMO to take down the dying horse that is WoW... And i think this is the game to do it this game offers everything wow offers with a story that is based on a universe of infinant possibilities with lovable characters and awesome settings... AND NO *********** PANDAS. Also it is not necissary to make up random places that just "appeared" because there are hundreds of world that exist just in the movie made universe let alone the expanded universe...

 

My point is like it or not this is without a doubt the best story you will get in an mmo and quite frankly maybe the world of video games as a whole. The only suggestion i can make to you if you really wanna be a hero with changing morales and bla bla bla quit this game and go play Skyrim which is an amazing game... different but very story driven with a lot of character development and if you mod it right with flying Randy Savages singing MACHO MAN...

 

but I digress

[Midasear]

still grammatically correct which is what matters...

 

Unless grammar no longer includes spelling, punctuation, correct capitalization, and formal sentence structure, this statement is absolutely hilarious. Which is what matters.

 

AND NO *********** PANDAS.

 

Pandas are awesome, and especially beloved by Chinese schoolchildren. You and everyone else are just going to have to deal with it as they are introduced to every MMO. Every other video game franchise will get them, too. Gran Turismo Panda Rally Championship 2 _is_ coming....

[Seductivpancakes]

Its kind of silly that in a world filled with Orcs, Elves, Demons, Undead, and all sorts of magic, a species of sentient panda like people is where one would draw the line.

[BrigOrion]

Issue one to insult someones "writing" please be comperable to the english language. I don't mean to be a grammar Nazi but if you intend to nitpick please be aware that you will be nitpicked back. On to more relevant data... The issue with a Kotar story in an MMO is the first M kotar was ment to be a story driven game and with TOR is the most story driven MMO to date (I love that most of my quests actually matter to the story especially my class quests) If you start adding things like decision on how to go its going to be hard to keep the community United. For example you could have a group of 4 in Kotar and conquer almost any challenge in TOR you need a group of people other then NPCs. Those "other living people" are also playing the game and progressing through the story and quest lines. So regardless your not the hero exile your one of many heroes trying to save/destroy the republic. Now although you can do that in either was (light/dark decisions) your goal on either side is always the same... defeat the other side and anyone else that stands in your sides way. In conclusion this game isn't ment to make you feel like Odysseus or Revan or even Chuck Norris... This game is ment to make you feel like part of something bigger that you are working with others for an end game goal... and as we all know thats defeating the... just kidding its getting fat loot!

 

Oh, the irony.

[Matais]

I don't hate this game i was only speaking about the future of video game story telling. That is all, My only complaint with this game is the SI. I love the game otherwise but on the flipside i realise that the game's audience limits an mmo's story telling potential.

 

Does that mean this game is bad? No i love the game. I just miss the days when single player RPGS actually made a character out of the player. I gave my examples, surely there are others but i am starting to become afraid for the future of Story telling in videogames. Unlike most people i didn't like DAO or think its antagonist was really intimidating. And No matter how many times i play Mass effect i do not get the Reaper's motivation.

 

TOR is Excluded from this argument from this moment forward.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback thus far. Much appreciated.

[Matais]

I think we all at times get very high expectations and in most cases anticipation is greater than the deed. And in turn, expectation often falls short of execution.

So with knowing that it is near impossible to please each person the writing should be judged on its own and not versus other games.

 

I applaud you for wanting more and not settling for mediocre entertainment.

However, I think I find some issue with your post because there are many things to consider.

 

We know that yes, writing a video game is different than book or movie writing. And we cannot forget that this is also writing for an MMO. Still vastly different than other video games and game writing. One should realize that although most of the game is about that main character you are playing, there is a world around them as well. They truly cannot be the 100% center of the universe. The writing is attempting, in my view, to address that.

 

One can easily guess that when you say, do the Gree quests, you are not the only person to ever help out. You can easily see how that maybe at many times the ambassador has had to talk to random Gree and you just happen to walk by at this time for these particular Gree. You can see how that maybe there are several Bounty Hunter competitions going on at any time and you are just in the one called the Great Hunt. Even more so, there are tons of Jedi on ships and they just happen to task you to kill this one. I have not made it through all of the Jedi Knight quest, but it feels like you are not the "chosen one" like in other single player games, but somebody who has great potential.

 

 

When doing your companion's quests we get a window, or at least a chance into their interpersonal relations. It seems to me that all actions, while not represented in the game mechanics, help build a character profile.

Staying consistent in your choices and dialog will flesh out the character and should give you some attachment to them and their story. Much like writing a large story or comic, after a while the characters write themselves. And eventually there will be no question in the choices of dialog you pick because in your head, you character would just say XYZ naturally. At that point its a no brainer and at that point you can see the writing has done it job to pull you in and get you invested in that character.

 

Fair argument, i was just wondering if it was possible for the main character to have a more active role in the story than just going through points A-T. I guess what i really want is for character presence to emerge. Like how there is a plot but then a secondary plot dealing with the main characters flaws and learning to overcome them or turn them into a strenght. That type of thing. I don't know about everyone else but in Kotor 2 for example i felt like my character was growing and learning as the game played out. Maybe it helped that there was a strong mentor figure for the character to feed off of in the form of Kriea. I mean i will admit i get a minor sense of that (i mean minor cause its implied that Baras actually teaches you stuff unlike Zash who just sends you on errands. Baras sends you on errands too but at least i feel as though hes teaching the SW something.)

 

Who knows maybe i spoiled myself on playing Torment and Sith Lords.

[Matais]

still grammatically correct which is what matters... I am sorry I just like this game this is what I have been waiting for since I played WoW and was just like... ******* this would be so much cooler if it was in Star Wars!

 

New paragraph.

 

And again, one of the main purposes (Intended or Unintended) Is to make another viable large scale MMO to take down the dying horse that is WoW... And i think this is the game to do it this game offers everything wow offers with a story that is based on a universe of infinant possibilities with lovable characters and awesome settings... AND NO *********** PANDAS. Also it is not necissary to make up random places that just "appeared" because there are hundreds of world that exist just in the movie made universe let alone the expanded universe...

 

My point is like it or not this is without a doubt the best story you will get in an mmo and quite frankly maybe the world of video games as a whole. The only suggestion i can make to you if you really wanna be a hero with changing morales and bla bla bla quit this game and go play Skyrim which is an amazing game... different but very story driven with a lot of character development and if you mod it right with flying Randy Savages singing MACHO MAN...

 

but I digress

 

you obvious didn't read my post then, not an attack on you or anything, What i wanted was the 3 dimensional feel of the Characters, the plot and player character growth all working in perfect union. I don't expect this game to change nor do i want it to. MMO's can't change due to its audience being very wide which means quality in some areas might have to be toned down because for an mmo developer if something is too complex a large chunk of people will quit because its too confusing or w.e.

 

Single player Rpgs however, they have more potential than mmos will ever have.

 

Is it so much to want a story that i can remember for years upon years to come? To feel the blade of a knife to my heart when a companion/dies and it cannot be changed because of a choice you made? Is it so much that the Pro and antagonist can't have a confrontation that is both Personal and has some weight to it. It doesn't even have to be the fate of the universe. It could very well be that the pro and antagonist would just be on a path to a goal or ambition and the other stands in their way. Or perhaps the two characters are old friends who have built a friendship with eachother through a honorable rivalry with each other but it had escalted to the point where they both respectively felt compelled to conclude it.

 

Or maybe the mentor would orchastrate an elaborate series of trials and challenges so that their star student could triumph against them all so that they would be prepared for the ulimate test which would be to kill the mentor. The mentor would do this under the idea that unless the mentor falls the student could never advance.

 

i am pretty sure this is why the Bane stories work on some level. However, for my example the mentor and student would have actually been teachign eachother and developed a strong bond over the course of the journey. I mean this type of plot point would work to prepare the protagonist for the challenge that is greater than even the Mentor was capable of.

 

 

Idk maybe i just want the personal feel to a story again.

 

 

I only expect this from a single player not an mmo.

[Heimskringla]

The quality of the writing is the same as for any other form of media. I like to read well-written novels, comics, and news articles. I like to watch cinema with well-written plot and dialogue.

 

I like to play video games with good story.

 

TOR is hit or miss on that part. Most of the class stories are very good. I think the Sith Inquisitor story is about a 2/10 rating in comparison to the others. The world arcs are all very good. I've often felt like the world arcs (Tatooine and Alderaan in particular) spoke more to what my class was supposed to be about than my actual class story.

 

However, there are other people who absolutely love the Inquisitor's story. Granted, bodice rippers are probably the height of these people's literary ambitions, but to each their own.

[RatTheMad]

You miss the days of great character development? That's an awfully nostalgic view IMO. If anything I'd say the quality of writing in video games (both MMO and single player, though obviously single player has the upper hand) has been on a continual upswing. Sure it's not perfectly linear, there are good years and bad, instant classics and flops. But the last decade or so has seen huge advances in the overall quality of writing in video games.

 

I'd rate SWTOR fairly good on that front. As an average anyway, I freely admit some storylines are much better crafted than others.

 

So to answer the titular question, I think the highest quality should be expected, and I think the actual quality (generalized across games and genres) is slowly but steadily increasing.

[WhoDaresWins]

BioWare stories are not amazing, they just stand out in a sea of utter crap that is the rest of the video game industry. People assume this to be as good as it can possibly get and preach how BioWare are the greatest storytellers known.

 

They do some good stuff but when people preach them as masters of the quill it always amuses me.

Edited January 14, 2012 by WhoDaresWins

[Matais]

BioWare stories are not amazing, they just stand out in a sea of utter crap that is the rest of the video game industry. People assume this to be as good as it can possibly get and preach how BioWare are the greatest storytellers known.

 

They do some good stuff but when people preach them as masters of the quill it always amuses me.

 

could you point me into the direction of place where its outstanding?

[Matais]

You miss the days of great character development? That's an awfully nostalgic view IMO. If anything I'd say the quality of writing in video games (both MMO and single player, though obviously single player has the upper hand) has been on a continual upswing. Sure it's not perfectly linear, there are good years and bad, instant classics and flops. But the last decade or so has seen huge advances in the overall quality of writing in video games.

 

I'd rate SWTOR fairly good on that front. As an average anyway, I freely admit some storylines are much better crafted than others.

 

So to answer the titular question, I think the highest quality should be expected, and I think the actual quality (generalized across games and genres) is slowly but steadily increasing.

 

point me in the direction of what stands out in this generation? Witcher 2 almost did it for me but it fell short in a few categories. If you played both endings to that game you might understand what i mean. Its just hard to understand how anyone has any real reason to fight the antagonist when its quite clear that it wasn't personal nor does it make sense that Geralt would want to send him off. And i was never convinced that the antagonist actually did enough damage to personally get mad at him anyway.

 

 

Meh, i want characters to have more weight to them. Is that so much to ask? Mass effect 2 did a decent job with its characters i find for the most part.

 

The reason i gave planescape torment and Kotor 2 as examples is because the characters were the driving force for those games.

 

plus the antagonists were also entities whose motivations were defined and (you will have to follow kotor 2's antagonist closely to understand it without playing 7 times over)

 

Make no mistake, monsters are fine too, but not when its the only thing in the story. Example how did your character personally have to evolve in order to fight the Archdemon in dragonage?

[JonnnyB]

Stories in games will never be as good as stories in books and movies. Too often the story will need to be sacrificed / modified in order to make the game work. For example, at the end of a level you need a boss and designing a story to allow for that means compromises that make the story weaker.

 

Player choice also takes away from the story. The more choice you give a player as to a character's actions the weaker the character becomes. A well-developed character should not have dialogue options as only one response should be appropriate. Of course, this would make the game less fun as dialogue options are fun and engaging (good game mechanic).

 

So, what BW does right is find a good balance between story and game play. Both elements are done very well and both "mesh" together fairly seamlessly. It's really all you can ask for from the format. Now some might prefer more story while others more game play but that boils down to personal preference.

[JawaJedi]

I think Video Game story telling is on the rise, and TOR may not be the best example of great story telling, but is certainally a symptom of it. This game focuses incredibly around a story, especially for a MMO, where you used to get more story from a FPS that focused around multiplayer and decided to put a quick campaign together.

 

I'm not sure where exactly people got this idea that BioWare was incredible at stories, I've felt that they make a good effort, but...the best in the biz is most certainally Rockstar. Look at Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire....

I once read a review of Red Dead Redemption that made me feel like I was back in English class.

 

So, there is definitely a rise of storytelling in video games, and while it may not be great right now, focusing on it will help improve it. And this game sorta shows that, I suppose.

[Berethos]

I think Video Game story telling is on the rise, and TOR may not be the best example of great story telling, but is certainally a symptom of it. This game focuses incredibly around a story, especially for a MMO, where you used to get more story from a FPS that focused around multiplayer and decided to put a quick campaign together.

 

I'm not sure where exactly people got this idea that BioWare was incredible at stories, I've felt that they make a good effort, but...the best in the biz is most certainally Rockstar. Look at Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire....

I once read a review of Red Dead Redemption that made me feel like I was back in English class.

 

So, there is definitely a rise of storytelling in video games, and while it may not be great right now, focusing on it will help improve it. And this game sorta shows that, I suppose.

 

It may help to remember that strong stories and strong characters like John Marston or Cole Phelps are somewhat narrow in their presentation, in that it is the developer of the game and the writers that create the characterizations and you, as the player, don't have that much room to add to who that character is as an individual.

 

Games like the ones Bioware create tend to leave those characterizations in your hands to a degree. The story presented through the game itself isn't as strong as in more focused titles, but it comes with the freedom to create aspects about your character that add additional depth. If you don't have that narrative gap, or enough of one, you take that freedom away from the player.

 

For example, my Bounty Hunter deals with a spice addiction that leads her to going on it then having to detox, as miserable as the experience may be. Nothing in the game handles or suggests that, but I had the freedom to include that as part of my character when I consider her personality, actions, temperament, etc. and try to keep her consistent with that and other aspects of her character that I have created off screen.

 

Not that the storytelling doesn't need improvement, even in this model, but I'm not sure I would be as quick to sacrifice too much room to essentially write my own character in favor of the characters that while strong and part of strong stories is dictated to me.

 

Just my .02 creds on the matter.

[VoxTheHero]

Its kind of silly that in a world filled with Orcs, Elves, Demons, Undead, and all sorts of magic, a species of sentient panda like people is where one would draw the line.

 

Especially since said Pandas have been a part of the lore since Warcraft 3. Funny how people forget that.

[Krusedullfaen]

I believe a game should be held to the highest standard of writing, as should all media.

[Matais]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

 

After reading all of your replies i wonder if there is any other medium with what i am looking for.

 

I look at my local chapters and can't find anything good in the books department.

 

 

meh, if i can't find anything i'll just write my own thing then.

[JawaJedi]

It may help to remember that strong stories and strong characters like John Marston or Cole Phelps are somewhat narrow in their presentation, in that it is the developer of the game and the writers that create the characterizations and you, as the player, don't have that much room to add to who that character is as an individual.

 

Games like the ones Bioware create tend to leave those characterizations in your hands to a degree. The story presented through the game itself isn't as strong as in more focused titles, but it comes with the freedom to create aspects about your character that add additional depth. If you don't have that narrative gap, or enough of one, you take that freedom away from the player.

 

For example, my Bounty Hunter deals with a spice addiction that leads her to going on it then having to detox, as miserable as the experience may be. Nothing in the game handles or suggests that, but I had the freedom to include that as part of my character when I consider her personality, actions, temperament, etc. and try to keep her consistent with that and other aspects of her character that I have created off screen.

 

Not that the storytelling doesn't need improvement, even in this model, but I'm not sure I would be as quick to sacrifice too much room to essentially write my own character in favor of the characters that while strong and part of strong stories is dictated to me.

 

Just my .02 creds on the matter.

 

The Exile was a pretty interesting character. It CAN be done. I'm not saying that the "create a character" aspect shouldn't be respected. My characters, like yours, have a backstory. Its important. I'm just saying that BioWare tries hard, but I think they're overrated. But what they are is a symptom of good things, an improvement in storytelling. They are on the positive end of the spectrum.

[Matais]

The Exile was a pretty interesting character. It CAN be done. I'm not saying that the "create a character" aspect shouldn't be respected. My characters, like yours, have a backstory. Its important. I'm just saying that BioWare tries hard, but I think they're overrated. But what they are is a symptom of good things, an improvement in storytelling. They are on the positive end of the spectrum.

 

a pro i suppose.