Chosenxeno Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The rise in over-all MMO gaming numbers would like a chat with your less then well thought out point... nvm it was an incomplete thought I edited it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valethar Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers. Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds). LOL. I'll tell em to bite me. This is a game, not a job. If the boss dies at the end of the run, then the mission was accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDBAHL Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This game is not my job. Im not willing to sit there and get berated by some little **** because my DPS is 5 points lower than his. People that want to be able to see others damage just want a tool to bludgeon people with so they can feel better about themselves. All the arguments for it being a tool of constructive criticism are utter ********. People just want as many ways as they can get to label a player bad and then ridicule them. Ive played WoW long enough and raided long enough to know what this absurd mechanism is really about. Ive seen countless perfectly good guildies booted for not meeting a certain number. Ive seen a hierarchy form in a guild where the top DPS are somehow in charge simply because they can do top DPS. Sadly, the big number on the DPS meter didn;t change the fact that they were morons, and most of the time the guild blew up within a week. You don't get to know what my DPS is. Ever. I will never care what yours is. It won't matter how many times we wipe. I will never care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulfer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Personally I loathe combat logs, they tend to lead to "Big Number Syndrome" which is highly prevelant in DPSers anyway. You people are more than welcome to have your combat logs and dps parsers, and if because I refuse to use them I don't get into groups, ohwell. People can be very very good at what they do without a dps meter to tell them that, back before there were threat meters and such people had to manage dps and aggro all through practice and feelings. I liked that, it added a more realistic feel to the games abit as well as some more challenge. Personally though as I said because of "Big Number Syndrome" too many people focus on topping the charts. It's far more often the case that a mediocre dpser who properly utilises the functionality of their class is a greater asset to a group than someone who simply full throttles the big numbers. Not to say that people can't do both, but just as a general trend amongst your more average players (of whom I unashamedly am one). Overall I prefer and gain enjoyment from the older more archaic form of dpsing, tanking and healing before all the extra tools. So that's how I'll do it, feel free to have your tools but just don't force them on me. EDIT: Also +1 to the guy above. Edited January 13, 2012 by Vulfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulkan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This game is not my job. Im not willing to sit there and get berated by some little **** because my DPS is 5 points lower than his. People that want to be able to see others damage just want a tool to bludgeon people with so they can feel better about themselves. All the arguments for it being a tool of constructive criticism are utter ********. People just want as many ways as they can get to label a player bad and then ridicule them. Ive played WoW long enough and raided long enough to know what this absurd mechanism is really about. Ive seen countless perfectly good guildies booted for not meeting a certain number. Ive seen a hierarchy form in a guild where the top DPS are somehow in charge simply because they can do top DPS. Sadly, the big number on the DPS meter didn;t change the fact that they were morons, and most of the time the guild blew up within a week. You don't get to know what my DPS is. Ever. I will never care what yours is. It won't matter how many times we wipe. I will never care. While you are right about some of what you wrote... I have never experienced someone taking a dump on someone for doing 5 less points of damage. People that want a group/raid parser want one to improve themselves as a unit. If someone in that unit is slacking off big time, then it's important to know about it. People don't need to be doing 100% of their maximum potential dps-wise to progress in content. But they can't be doing under 75% either IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Should make a dungeon finder and set up a queue differential for:People who want group combat logging or not.People who want to roll need for companion or not. Then puggers can pug pug pug away to their heart's content with like minded folks. Allow formed groups to set up group combat logging and good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imtrick Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) People that want to be able to see others damage just want a tool to bludgeon people with so they can feel better about themselves. All the arguments for it being a tool of constructive criticism are utter ********. Take a second and think. Would you like it if someone said "everyone who doesn't want meters is just afraid someone will find out he's a bad player?" That would be a pretty crappy thing to say, wouldn't it? And completely untrue, right? Well, you just did the same thing. You lumped everyone who doesn't agree with you into a bucket of "people who suck." Well, guess what? We don't all suck. There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to want meters that have nothing to do with hurting your feelings. Insulting people and overgeneralizing only make people look like zealots who are afraid to look past their own point of view on things. Just something to think about. Edited January 13, 2012 by imtrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hy_C Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 All of the things you said and all are great but you never answer the question "What if the boss doesn't die?" In all of your responses you always say, dps doesn't matter if the boss dies, well please tell me then what if the boss doesn't die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korialstrazs Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 All of the things you said and all are great but you never answer the question "What if the boss doesn't die?" In all of your responses you always say, dps doesn't matter if the boss dies, well please tell me then what if the boss doesn't die? They never have an answer, I've yet to see one, across many mmo forums. The only answers I've ever seen are "I'll fail until we all quit, and have a good time doing it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Done with the Clueless EQ with their selective answers and pointless rhetoric. I think I did a pretty solid job of proving to them how wrong and misguided their viewpoints are. I mean sheesh you guys couldn't provide me with a solid counterpoint all night. LOL For the people whining about "Cookie-Cutter" specs. The following things will expose your bad specs: Guilds that Blog(This class went this spec and suddenly the boss died) SW:TOR Armory(it's coming lol) The Inspect button. /wave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulkan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Done with the Clueless EQ with their selective answers and pointless rhetoric. I think I did a pretty solid job of proving to them how wrong and misguided their viewpoints are. I mean sheesh you guys couldn't provide me with a solid counterpoint all night. LOL For the people whining about "Cookie-Cutter" specs. The following things will expose your bad specs: Guilds that Blog(This class went this spec and suddenly the boss died) SW:TOR Armory(it's coming lol) The Inspect button. /wave What exactly did you prove? I haven't read every post. I'm guessing I would agree with you... Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDBAHL Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Take a second and think. Would you like it if someone said "everyone who doesn't want meters is just afraid someone will find out he's a bad player?" That would be a pretty crappy thing to say, wouldn't it? And completely untrue, right? Well, you just did the same thing. You lumped everyone who doesn't agree with you into a bucket of "people who suck." Well, guess what? We don't all suck. There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to want meters that have nothing to do with hurting your feelings. Insulting people and overgeneralizing only make people look like zealots who are afraid to look past their own point of view on things. Just something to think about. I don't feel that the number of people who wouldn't abuse this feature are statistically significant enough to warrant mention. After all, if the purpose of having access to other peoples stats is NOT to weed out/ridicule people you consider to be under-performing then what is it? People always talk about constructive criticism in this debate. Wheres the constructive part? In all my years in MMO's ive never seen it. Its always just "lol youre only doing X dps? SRS BRO? trash player /kick". MMO players will never take the time to try and help someone else improve. As it stands now most MMO players don't even want to be made to interact with other people in any way shape or form. The number of people who would be perfectly happy to never even group with another human being if they didn't have to is very high. Antagonism is the name of the game here. Kiddies today think MMO's are all about being better than everyone else and then rubbing their noses in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Oh, this again. *yawn* Pointless argument, with both sides making completely unfounded statements and trolling right past each other. There are two ugly bottom lines here: 1) The hard-core raid people won't prop this game up. They're what is killing WoW. The game can't survive without casuals, a large percent of casuals are leaving WoW because elitist attitudes wrecked it. Everyone is always very careful to claim they've never done that but sorry, with the way you're acting, few of you are believable. None of you want to "help people improve" , it's about ePeen. That's not wrong -- you pay the sub, you have fun with how you like it. No one has the right to tell you otherwise. But this garbage about "without hardcores the game will fail" is just trash. If all of you left, the game would take a slight dip and keep moving. 2) The clicking carebares. Look, can we be honest here? At least HALF of you are bads. I don't like that term. No one does. But you are. Your geared in greens with stats that aren't your baseline, you are helpless without your npc companion, you have no idea what a decent rotation is and , most worryingly, you don't get the concept of trying button presses (or clicks, more likely) into strategy. The elites are worried about carrying you because we had to carry bads for years. Eventually, MMORPG's evolved where the raids and the tools were more capable of identifying issues. Has the whole thing gone too far? Probably. No one cares what the hard-core raiders think, and no one cares what the bads think, and they spend all their time screaming about "you can't force me to show my dps" and "if you won't show your dps you are baddie" without engaging in conversation of how to bypass the whole sordid mess. 1) If you aren't willing to share logs, you probably aren't going to be trying to group with the hardcore raiding types anyway. Most of them are disdainful of PUGs and when they do form them are quick to glance over your gear before inviting. The way some of you are geared (I saw a trooper in light wisdom armor yesterday , he said it was "for the look", ffs) , you won't get invites. There's never, ever gonna be a case where Nox Imperious is going to be asking your baddie self to join them on False Emperor. Spare me. 2) If you aren't willing to deal with people who don't like sharing their info, either be prepared to carry bads or build strong guild rosters. Don't take your crap-talking into other people's PUG's, either -- if you form you own, that's one thing, joining someone elses group and commending on their click-baddie status is both rude and tacky. Most importantly, if you aren't willing to help people understand why it's important and only want to dismiss them as bads, just stop posting. You've got what you wanted. No one cares about your ePeen 3) If you are one of the people without an opinion either way, I suggest the following things for everyone - read a class guide to understand your class. TRY some builds. Yes you can build your character anyway you like...but you might find you enjoy the game more if you play your character well. And no, Mr. Trooper in Wisdom Light Armor , you aren't playing the game well. - Understand the mechanics behind how skills interact, what triggers what, etc. The raids are not jokes. The bosses , once they enrage, are retardedly powerful, and this is why everyone is so crazy focused on DPS -- to get them dead first. Don't assume that all the talk about DPS is just epeen - yes, alot of it is , but some of it ISN'T. - Perhaps most importantly, decide what you value and enjoy. Raids are frustrating, require top notch skills and coordination, and the best gear. If you are using your mouse to click, don't have keybinds, and rely on your companion for most of your killing, you aren't going to enjoy raids, and neither will those carrying you. Less screaming, more discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansultares Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If they keep going this anti compete policy to coddle the bads they will lose all the serious gamers and end up with a community as horrible as RIFTs.You mean it isn't headed that way already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwg Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Won't be long before someone writes a packet sniffer that logs everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulkan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 LogicalPremise. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I just do not understand. The greatest arugment people had for the combat log is to know their OWN DPS. Now their true colors come out. Much like a monster bursting out of a cake with a knife in it's hand. They want to know YOUR DPS. Well I am tired of people having recount. Knowing the DPS. As if the TOP DPS is superior among the king of nerd's for some reason. The purpose of the content is to down it. Not to down it as QUICK as possible to burn it. I have yet to see a flash point people could not complete without recount. I have yet to come across a situation where it's NEEDED. You want your own PERSONAL combat log. Okay but you wanting to KNOW my number. When you PAY my sub. You can know my DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) What exactly did you prove? I haven't read every post. I'm guessing I would agree with you... Just curious. That they want this to be another EQ at their core. That the "EQ1" didn't have Parsers statement is false(ok I didn't prove that an EQer did. He was actually a good one.)<----Also isn't it amazing how this didn't somehow ruin the challenge or make the game EZ Mode for them, but it magically makes this happen to other games. They are full of it! That arguing against anything that screams more Accessible or Inclusive in a game that's suppose to be Massive is utter nonsense. That more successful games than EQ do include the majority of the things they argue against so it would not be wise from a business perspective to follow EQ's example. That they have selective targets for their insults i.e. non EQ people. (there's a post where I asked if the EQ guy that parsed was A Care Bear, Bad, Lazy ect. All they could provide to me and the parser was spin. They couldn't say yes or no. If he was from WOW it would have been a resounding YES!) They offer no answers just lame insults and name calling. Parsers are bad but somehow, games new and old that use them have more player than "The Almighty EQ". LOL Their opinions hold no weight. They did not come a successful mainstream market. They came from a Niche market. You don't see me demanding for every RPG to be Dark Souls. I hated Skyrim, but I understand that Dark Souls is Niche the majority does not want masochism(When I rule this land every game shall be Dark Souls though. Start Preparing now! LOL). Edited January 13, 2012 by Chosenxeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 lol Everyone in this thread wasting their time because a 9 year old misinterpreted the BW post. You guys are getting a personal in-game tool that shows ONLY your combat performance. We are still getting full combat logs that can be parsed, for raiding at least. L2reading comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 lol Everyone in this thread wasting their time because a 9 year old misinterpreted the BW post. You guys are getting a personal in-game tool that shows ONLY your combat performance. We are still getting full combat logs that can be parsed, for raiding at least. L2reading comprehension. Where did it say that? No where. Paser's have Malware in them. Enjoy account hacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Where did it say that? No where. Paser's have Malware in them. Enjoy account hacked. Nope. Never got my account hacked ever. Probably cuz I am not retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansultares Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 - Understand the mechanics behind how skills interact, what triggers what, etc. The raids are not jokes. The bosses , once they enrage, are retardedly powerful, and this is why everyone is so crazy focused on DPS -- to get them dead first. Don't assume that all the talk about DPS is just epeen - yes, alot of it is , but some of it ISN'T.Basically this. If you raid, you can't defend the lack of damage meters. If you don't raid, you're not involved in the discussion because damage meters don't impact your gameplay. PvE mechanics can necessitate damage meters, and even if I find enrage a joke of a mechanic, it's still one of those mechanics which you'll need damage meters to work around if it's proving to be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Where did it say that? No where. Paser's have Malware in them. Enjoy account hacked. Shouldn't you be attempting to counterpoint my post Mr. "Back in EQ"? Or are you tired of being wrong and proving my points? Edited January 13, 2012 by Chosenxeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChimaeraUK Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Seems a fair compromise. If anyone asks me for a copy of my DPS numbers i'll tell them where to stick it, if people want that information they should also have to take CC, interrupts and off-healing/tanking into account - but they never do. Anyone saying that people like me are just trying to hide our crap numbers is an idiot TBH, i'm a DPS but a damage meter doesn't say that i helped heal the tank through some spike damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemrodh Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Good no recount for group. And you know personal DPS. Now everyone wins. No loud mouth in raid shouting everyone's number's and if you ask me mine. I'll lie. And Id boot you from my guild for being a honorless lair.. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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