Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Folks who are saying group meters are inevitable need to understand a couple points. Bioware won't release one until it works the way they intend it to work which means if it only shows personal information that is all you will get modify that and you could lose your account. This was a converstion I had with Georg on Google+ a couple weeks back ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jett-Rinn: +Georg Zoeller There is so much bickering over whether or not to use Damage meters and you guys currently have SWTORS turned off. A lot of us wish that tools like that could be useful and still not be used to insult and degrade other players or to turn the game into a DPS fest. I really don't envy you guys it seems if you use them or not people are going to be upset. - Comment - Hang out - Share 2 comments Georg Zoeller - We are aware of the expectations and fears of the community and we're treading carefully forward Dec 21, 2011 Jett-Rinn - Well...If anyone can find a happy medium you guys can. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Given that and what was said in the dev update I would say that what we are getting is a personal log probably one that is built in and will display the information after the Operation or Flashpoint. And really it is the best compromise; Hardcore Raiders will probably go back to the Guild test system and Pugs will be the way they were intended as friendly pickup games where you take the hand your'e dealt. If that is unacceptable you have a viable solution Raid with your guild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laparkuh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How is it fair that your affecting MY fun by forcing an app that groups MY PERSONAL INFO into your hands. You forcing this APP on my hands. This game started without recount or add on's and it will live on that way. Now YOU know your DPS. And I KNOW mine. You just can't scream at people in raid for low numbers. I don't get it, you got YOUR PERSONAL DPS. Now you want MY INFORMATION. Once you pay my sub you can. It's not fun to wipe over and over because someone is sitting back "easy-mode" hitting one skill over and over to "look busy" while watching their favorite tv show. Group combat logs find that person right away and promptly place a "kick-me" sign on their back. Unless that player is YOU...then I don't see why you're so upset... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcato Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 and Pugs will be the way they were intended as friendly pickup games where you take the hand your'e dealt. If that is unacceptable you have a viable solution Raid with your guild. Sure are a whole lot of restrictive enrage timers for content that's supposedly pickup friendly and/or casual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socron Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Only monitoring my performance is not good enough. I know I'm good. It's everyone else I'm concerned about. Sry casuals don't want you to see their performance Edited January 12, 2012 by Socron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's not fun to wipe over and over because someone is sitting back "easy-mode" hitting one skill over and over to "look busy" while watching their favorite tv show. Group combat logs find that person right away and promptly place a "kick-me" sign on their back. Unless that player is YOU...then I don't see why you're so upset... I don't know what to tell you. People have been complaining that recount is needed "to max one's DPS and know MY personal DPS" well now you have one. But now you want one to know MINE..I pay my sub..when you pay my sub you may know my personal information. Untill then..did what we did in everquest. LOOK around and see who is doing what. If you can't know who is not doing their job in a 22 minute boss fight. Then maybe you are just not as leet as you once have thought. I..personally can turn the angle to see who's doing what while I'm fighting... If you can't maybe your the bad..not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How is it fair that your affecting MY fun by forcing an app that groups MY PERSONAL INFO into your hands. You forcing this APP on my hands. This game started without recount or add on's and it will live on that way. Now YOU know your DPS. And I KNOW mine. You just can't scream at people in raid for low numbers. I don't get it, you got YOUR PERSONAL DPS. Now you want MY INFORMATION. Once you pay my sub you can. LOL Why do people act as if: You HAVE TO JOIN a Guild that requires any Addons or Parsers? The other thing is this. If you have ever been removed from a pug because people saw your dps via recount in a pug. Then you were!!!!!! It takes 3-4 PEOPLE TO REMOVE YOU FROM A GROUP. If 3-4 people voted to remove you than, there couldn't be a clearer sign that you were holding the group back. Should they all just give up and leave? Wanting people to just give up on their instance run or raid rather than removing you for under-performing is selfish. It's not elitism. It's what makes sense for the majority of the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Folks who are saying group meters are inevitable need to understand a couple points. Bioware won't release one until it works the way they intend it to work which means if it only shows personal information that is all you will get modify that and you could lose your account. This was a converstion I had with Georg on Google+ a couple weeks back ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jett-Rinn: +Georg Zoeller There is so much bickering over whether or not to use Damage meters and you guys currently have SWTORS turned off. A lot of us wish that tools like that could be useful and still not be used to insult and degrade other players or to turn the game into a DPS fest. I really don't envy you guys it seems if you use them or not people are going to be upset. - Comment - Hang out - Share 2 comments Georg Zoeller - We are aware of the expectations and fears of the community and we're treading carefully forward Dec 21, 2011 Jett-Rinn - Well...If anyone can find a happy medium you guys can. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Given that and what was said in the dev update I would say that what we are getting is a personal log probably one that is built in and will display the information after the Operation or Flashpoint. And really it is the best compromise; Hardcore Raiders will probably go back to the Guild test system and Pugs will be the way they were intended as friendly pickup games where you take the hand your'e dealt. If that is unacceptable you have a viable solution Raid with your guild. And there goes that last infinitely small speck of regret I had for rage quitting. This was one more post than I intended to make, but I just had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Sure are a whole lot of restrictive enrage timers for content that's supposedly pickup friendly and/or casual. I dunno guy Pugs I have been in have pretty much blown through everything with half the group not even knowing the fight. Maybe the issue is something no meter can fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 And there goes that last infinitely small speck of regret I had for rage quitting. This was one more post than I intended to make, but I just had to. I really hate to see you go Alps you made some really good points.....good luck wherever you land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Combat logs are essential to raiding. If you refuse to understand why, then it's only because of your own wilfull ignorance. Combat logs are essential to people that can;t raid or think for themselves, if you don't understand way, then it's only because of your willful laziness. The first trial run will tell you how long you have to kill the boss if it's the enrage start one-shotting peeps type. A simple look at the clock and the current health of the mobs tells you wether you need more dps. But, what you guys really want is someone to blame. This game is going to turn into a WOW clone, full of elitists and greedy bads. If you can't raid with what you were given, you shouldn't be raiding. You'll get logs (and lmao at the guy who thinks I'm going upload anything to his website). When you have logs you'll whine and cry for threat meters. Then you'll whine and cry for something else. Just another WoW clone. Geez, I never heard so much crying by apparently grown people over a game. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laparkuh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't know what to tell you. People have been complaining that recount is needed "to max one's DPS and know MY personal DPS" well now you have one. But now you want one to know MINE..I pay my sub..when you pay my sub you may know my personal information. Untill then..did what we did in everquest. LOOK around and see who is doing what. If you can't know who is not doing their job in a 22 minute boss fight. Then maybe you are just not as leet as you once have thought. I..personally can turn the angle to see who's doing what while I'm fighting... If you can't maybe your the bad..not them. You skirted the question. Why are YOU personally so upset and worried about you're numbers? Are you that "guy watching TV"? If you are contributing to the group then it shouldn't matter what anyone can see. Are you also the player that hates when someone "inspects your gear"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socron Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's funny how people don't want dps meters added because they are afraid of people calling them bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunnd Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Good. I am happy these are coming, a much-needed feature imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Pants Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 A shame. A real combat log would allow me to quickly identify bad dps'ers so I don't have to group with them. It's fair enough that some people are either bad or not interested in doing good dps - but I very much would like the choice not to group with them. As it is now - I just avoid grouping with anyone but my wife. I had enough of playing with bads in wow - I simply won't stomach it in another MMO. And no I don't want to raid - so don't tell me to join a heroic raiding guild if I want to avoid bads. so im just wondering what makes you think you are good? i mean there is no way for you to tell if you are doing decent dps or not atm, so i like how you automatically put yourself in the "amazing perfect great player" category, and every single other player is a potential bad that has to prove themselves to be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't know what to tell you. People have been complaining that recount is needed "to max one's DPS and know MY personal DPS" well now you have one. But now you want one to know MINE..I pay my sub..when you pay my sub you may know my personal information. When that information can have a dramatic affect on the group you're in, it ceases to be your personal information (not that it ever was since your character belongs to Bioware) and becomes information needed by the group. Your stance is indicative of the kind of person who is likely to be removed in a given scenario because you're lazy or ignorant. Taking a stand of "privacy" for the sake of privacy is silly in a game. In the real world? Sure. But in SWTOR? Hardly. Its a group activity and your performance affects the performance of the group. Being unwilling, as vehemently as you are, no less, to share information for the betterment of the team is just plain selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Combat logs are essential to people that can;t raid or think for themselves, if you don't understand way, then it's only because of your willful laziness. The first trial run will tell you how long you have to kill the boss if it's the enrage start one-shotting peeps type. A simple look at the clock and the current health of the mobs tells you wether you need more dps. Except in hard modes designed with a hair's breadth of give in DPS, meters show you who is lacking. For some, not personally, that matters. If that's not for you - fine, don't join a guild where eeking out every ounce of performance matters. But assuming everyone who wants this feature are people who "can't raid" or "think for themselves" is only revealing your own ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's not fun to wipe over and over because someone is sitting back "easy-mode" hitting one skill over and over to "look busy" while watching their favorite tv show. Group combat logs find that person right away and promptly place a "kick-me" sign on their back. Unless that player is YOU...then I don't see why you're so upset... But on the other hand you're quite happy with players with the flavor of the month dos class all specced the exact same way, all face rolling the rotation. What kind of game/raid is that? Raid leader: Player Joe: Your DPS is crap GET out of my raid Player Joe: Sorry boss, I have a cold and my nose was sliding on the keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I don't know what to tell you. People have been complaining that recount is needed "to max one's DPS and know MY personal DPS" well now you have one. But now you want one to know MINE..I pay my sub..when you pay my sub you may know my personal information. Untill then..did what we did in everquest. LOOK around and see who is doing what. If you can't know who is not doing their job in a 22 minute boss fight. Then maybe you are just not as leet as you once have thought. I..personally can turn the angle to see who's doing what while I'm fighting... If you can't maybe your the bad..not them. Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People? I finished Dark Souls but hated Skyrim because it wasn't brutal enough. Do I sit around resenting Skyrim for not being as Brutal as Dark Souls, outselling it and then sweeping every Publications GOTY Awards? No I understand that Accessibility will always win out over Niche thus I do not fight it. Fighting against anything that makes a Genre like Massive Multiplayer Online games is counter to what they are supposed to be about. To be Massive you need to be inclusive. I dunno about you but I want to play in a World that feels Massive. You can't achieve that with 100 people. *No name calling in this one are you proud of me mods? lol Edited January 12, 2012 by Chosenxeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You skirted the question. Why are YOU personally so upset and worried about you're numbers? Are you that "guy watching TV"? If you are contributing to the group then it shouldn't matter what anyone can see. Are you also the player that hates when someone "inspects your gear"? Because..as I said several times before this week. 1. Tunnel Vision- It promotes this way of distracting yourself from the entire fight. Instead of looking at the content having fun. Button smashing to get the MAX dps even though a half decent group could down it easily without that. It distracts from overall fight. 2. Promotes a Leet Attiude- It makes this ego over the internet. As if we need more of that. People spamming requirement's for stranger's. Instead of getting to know each other, liking each other for who we are. It makes the community act even worse then they are to each other. 3. It doesn't make you a leet- It's a weakess. If you truely need a recount to know what DPS is the max. Then your simply not as good as you thought. I played raids in everquest we didn't have a thousand and one add on's and when we died. We had locate our body or we wouldn't have our gear. I'm upset that people try to FORCE an APP that collects MY personal information. It's the wrong way to play purely on number's. Sipping mountain dew and yelling at people who are "not on par" it's not the way games should be played. It should be played based on interaction/fun/and talking not "Numbers" That should answer it. So now you KNOW your personal DPS and I know MINE. That should be enough. Maybe if not so bad wouldn't need a mod to tell you how to fight. What to do and when to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Once again I want to point out that it wasn't the casuals who kept the combat parser from being public it was those in the pro meter camp that insist on insulting and degrading others. Ignorant Lazy Sorry Casuals Bads I personally want to thank each and every one of you; your Lord of the flies philosophy has been a huge factor in helping Bioware decide which way to go. Once again thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Except in hard modes designed with a hair's breadth of give in DPS, meters show you who is lacking. For some, not personally, that matters. If that's not for you - fine, don't join a guild where eeking out every ounce of performance matters. But assuming everyone who wants this feature are people who "can't raid" or "think for themselves" is only revealing your own ignorance. ( yrs raiding on Everquest without add-ons or meters or even worrying about it. I'm not the one who can't play or is in any way ignorant. What you people are saying is you cannot raid unless you have more tools to help you raid and win. Sounds like care-bear raiding to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 But on the other hand you're quite happy with players with the flavor of the month dos class all specced the exact same way, all face rolling the rotation. For some, all that matter is the kill. Flavor, spec variance, gear variance, etc are all just roadblocks that prevent a kill. Games are for many types of people. Its the job of Bioware to cater to as many demographics as they can without alienating the others. Hence their desire to add a feature like combat log parsing for half the playerbase but doing so in a slow and considerate manner that doesn't piss off the other half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Once again I want to point out that it wasn't the casuals who kept the combat parser from being public it was those in the pro meter camp that insist on insulting and degrading others. Ignorant Lazy Sorry Casuals Bads I personally want to thank each and every one of you; your Lord of the flies philosophy has been a huge factor in helping Bioware decide which way to go. Once again thank you. Woah woah woah woah! Now I'm two posts over my "done with this" line, but I really have to comment on this. Go back and actually compare the number and severity of insults with fresh eyes. Seriously, go look. I wasn't always nice, I admit, but go look at your side of the fence again. Actually look without bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattypuppet Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I support this whole heartedly. I would like to be able to improve my performance by analyzing my gameplay. But when you have those numbers available to everyone the numbers take on a different meaning. Instead of helping to improve oneself, the numbers become a way to criticize or exclude others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycloth Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Mostly, I want to know things like 'should I bother ever using this skill'. 'Does this talent and/or equipment actually do anything noticeable'. 'Is my sage talented for DPS who can also heal and CC better or worse at DPS than my gunslinger who can't do anything else'. Assuming you also get companion logs, knowing what tradeoffs you're actually making based on which ones you use in which mode would be nice too. ...if anyone asked me to upload a log I'd tell them to go fsck themselves just from the amount of hassle involved, whether or not I was worried I was bad. Unless they were a friend, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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