In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Nurvus]

(...)

Suggestion: It would be nice to have access to a Scoreboard, much like in Warzones, when you kill a boss.

 

But as for ongoing meters, I rather players are only able to see their own.

 

This.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Nurvus

[KorrigTS]

For each player that will use combat logs and DPS meters well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population.

 

Two years from now, when you guys are complaining that TOR's playerbase is just as horrid as WoWs and people want 25k DPS and 5.7 minute heroic clears, don't come crying to me.

 

At that point, I'll tell you, "hey, you got your meters - we tried to tell you what they would do to the community, enjoy."

 

Elitist people are going to be elitist regardless. If it's not meters they will find something else to flaunt. Yes, there are quite a few that abuse meters and use them for the wrong purpose. You don't have to play with them and you can form a group of people to play with that won't abuse it. It's really not that difficult. I've never been in a serious guild that allowed meters to ruin my play. Do not punish the majority because a few in the minority may act like ******s.

 

And for the record, I really just want a combat log. I don't see a meter as much of a necessity. The documentation the combat log provides will be a huge plus.

[Mineria]

As said in my last post.. Don't like it? Don't join a major league baseball team!!

 

There are plenty of guilds out their who don't use meters; you are welcome to join them.

 

Asking to not have combat logs that shows everyone's performance in a massive multilayer game kinda defeats the purpose of a game based on numbers. If this were not the case, bosses should not have enrage timers (Time required for a boss to be defeated before killing everyone f they don't do enough DPS). This is not the case however and thus requires the utilities.

First boss kills vanilla did not require meters, boss mods and alike.

Anyway, the bosses where defeated quickly.

So don't tell me that the meters and such matters!

 

And comparing raids with professional sport is just LOL.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria

[BountyHuntard]

First boss kills vanilla did not require meters, boss mods and alike.

Anyway, the bosses where defeated quickly.

So don't tell me that the meters and such matters!

 

And comparing raids with professional sport is just LOL.

 

That's because the first bosses in vanilla were cut and dry difficulty to allow even a wand mages to participate in a kill that let 20 good players to carry 20 others.

 

Also, WoW was a steaming pile of crap when it first came out. It only really exploded towards BWL/AQ40 and guess what? Combat parse utilities were available, and content was much more fine tuned.

 

Show me a guild in current day WoW that doesn't use combat parses in hard mode content and I'll give you a piece of candy. Show e a guild in current day WoW that does hard mode content that doesn't have recruitment boards that doesn't require at least some form of questions to asses ones skill.

 

I compared raids to a professional sports to show that when one joins a group of people who do play on a professional level, they are expected to play as a professional. Whether you think it's "LoL" is not the point. The point is they DO exist, and you don't HAVE to join them.

Edited January 17, 2012 by BountyHuntard

[Cranberries]

I'm part of the hardcore side (shocker?) and I'm going to explain using fights in this game why combat logs are necessary to the game's end game advancement in mechanics, fun and difficulty. A universal combat log, for those unknowing, is NOT a damage meter. It's NOT a healing meter. All it is, simply, is a log of combat that details everything that happened in either solo play, group (4 man) play, warzone play or Operation play. It is true that while a universal combat log can be used to formulate addons, using WoW as an example, such as Skada. It's important to note that Skada is not simply a damage done meter, it tracks pretty much everything to do with combat - some of which can actually help a player improve. For example, the 'damage taken' meter gives an accurate reading of how much damage you took from a particular boss or player in either group, warzone or Operation play. I do not see how this is a bad thing. It shows that if you take a lot of damage, which is avoidable, then you should take the necessary procautions to reduce that number.

 

Moving onto why a universal combat log is needed though: I will use various bosses from HM FPs to show why a universal combat log and something like Skada would only make the game better.

 

Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 150

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

 

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage.

 

Krel Thak in Battle of Ilum:

Krel Thak has 210,000 hp

Krel Thak will summon 5 waves of adds with 5k hp each (there are 4 adds) [total 100,000 hp]

 

The enrage is 120 seconds:

310,000 / 120

2583 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 861

 

Again, this is a tightly tuned enrage and the most important part of this fight is how you handle the start and the adds: you burn the boss with all CDs at the start, and you need to kill the adds ASAP when they spawn or they will kill people. If you wipe however, again, there are multiple reasons:

1) DPS wasn't high

2) Melee killed themselves due to Krel Thak's shield

3) Adds managed to kill someone because they weren't killed fast enough

4) People were not spread out making the AoE Krel Thak does hit multiple people

5) Healing was too low - didn't let people do their best DPS rotations (see 1)

 

This is another fight where there are a lot of variables as to why you may wipe.

 

These are just two examples but I can give more, however I'm sure people can see why I believe a universal combat log is necessary - allowing an addon like Skada in this game would not make it worse. Since when has more knowledge been a bad thing? I don't understand why people would want to be able to get away doing the bare minimum: in games I try to be the best I can be, because it makes me happy and that is how I get my fun.

 

Looking into the camp of why people wouldn't want combat logs however, because I think it's fair. As far as I can work out people don't want combat logs because of the following:

- Number of times a meter is linked unnecessarily

- Number of times a meter is linked to insult another player

- Destroys a community in dungeons as no-one cares to be social and just wants to perform

- The player who is against combat logs pays $15 a month

 

I do agree with the first two. I think meters that are linked unnecessarily are a hassle and really shouldn't happen. In the cases they do happen (where a tank in WoW would link damage done meters after a trash pack) it is better to simply ignore said player and prove them wrong where it counts: bosses. Trash is mostly easy anywhere, so I see no reason why linking meters on trash is at all necessary. Again, when meters are linked to insult another player I'm cautious of a response. I ask myself "it is necessary?" and "how many chances has the player been given?" For example, if I link meters on a boss and ask a player why his or her DPS/damage done is low, too low infact for how they *should be* performing, and I recieve no answer it makes me a little angry because I would honestly like to help people get better. The reality is: people don't like being told they're wrong, and thus will never listen to criticisms (which is why listening to criticisms and taking it on board is something EVERY progression guild asks of its members).

 

For the other two: where it 'destroys a community' or 'a player has a right to play how he or she wants because they pay to play'. I think these are flawed arguments. The community in WoW, any MMO really, has always been bad. You will always (READ: ALWAYS) have a separation between the hardcore and casuals. Mostly for a variety of reasons: hardcores run through content with the aim goal being 'are we the first?' Casuals, in my opinion, take it a lot slower but could still very well do maybe (if we're using SWTOR difficulties) normal and hardmodes. The ideology that because someone pays to play this game is flawed as well. While they do contribute towards the game's financial assets, it does not mean they're allowed to get "carried" or "taken" through content.

 

A universal combat log is not simply about being able to post DPS meters, it is about being able to display all sorts of information that would help a guild progress. If a boss requires constant interrupting or a person dies (ultimately leading to a raid wipe) such as Reliquary of Souls in Black Temple and someon misses their interrupt, I should be allowed to see who did it so I can ask them why - if the answer was "I lagged" or "I didn't have enough energy [rogue]" or "I was too slow" - then I'll ask them not to do it again. I'm not going to get angry with people I raid and trial with over 1 or 2 minor mistakes, constant mistakes however need to be logged because in a hardcore progression guild it simply wont be the aforementioned with underperforming members. It's a reality.

 

To help the SWTOR community understand their "plight" of meters, namely the damage ones because it's the only ones people seem to be referencing, I decided to post a little gem on MMO-Champion (WoW fansite): thread.

[PseudoJoe]

The only valuable info that will come from Combat Logs will be raw DPS. As with other games, this creates a new mini-game... the "I have to be top DPS mini-game".

 

"Oh look, some adds are headed to the healer and the tank isn't positioned to grab them quickly. I could save the day with this or that to buy some time, but that'll rob my DPS. I think I'll go over here and pretend I didn't see that happening. Nuke rotation on boss continuing..."

 

DPS is just DPS. Quick cc, interrupts, healer support, brief off-tanking, add kiting, boss debuffing, ally buffing, and all of the other crisis-time skills that contribute greatly to a complex fight are worthless to the LookAtMySweetDeeps mini-game.

 

Hitting hard comes from gear, rotation, consumables, and CDs, not from actually being a good player.

 

Visible dps encourages unloading before the tank has decent threat and all of the other things we've seen too many times before. This is not theory, I've been a recount whore before, and I've been a tank that hates recount whores as well.

[Buur]

The only valuable info that will come from Combat Logs will be raw DPS. As with other games, this creates a new mini-game... the "I have to be top DPS mini-game".

 

"Oh look, some adds are headed to the healer and the tank isn't positioned to grab them quickly. I could save the day with this or that to buy some time, but that'll rob my DPS. I think I'll go over here and pretend I didn't see that happening. Nuke rotation on boss continuing..."

 

DPS is just DPS. Quick cc, interrupts, healer support, brief off-tanking, add kiting, boss debuffing, ally buffing, and all of the other crisis-time skills that contribute greatly to a complex fight are worthless to the LookAtMySweetDeeps mini-game.

 

Hitting hard comes from gear, rotation, consumables, and CDs, not from actually being a good player.

 

Visible dps encourages unloading before the tank has decent threat and all of the other things we've seen too many times before. This is not theory, I've been a recount whore before, and I've been a tank that hates recount whores as well.

 

Bad players are going to be bad no matter what information they have access to.

[Riotus]

This is a pretty broad assumption based on a single word. The way the sentance is worded does not suggest to me that combat logs will be available to the player only. your just reading to hard into things....

[ferroz]

For each player that will use combat logs and DPS meters well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population.

For each player that will use player inspect well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population.

 

For each player that will use in game chat channels well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population.

 

For each player that will use guilds well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population.

 

are you arguing against the inspect ability, in game chat channels, and guilds as well? or are you a hypocrite?

 

At that point, I'll tell you, "hey, you got your meters - we tried to tell you what they would do to the community, enjoy."

And I'll continue to think you're being delusional.

[ferroz]

um.... personal logs is enough.... you dont need other players info unless you actually want to be able to use the information in any way, since without the other character's there's no context for doing any sort of valid evaluation.

Fixed.

[Krazeh]

The only valuable info that will come from Combat Logs will be raw DPS. As with other games, this creates a new mini-game... the "I have to be top DPS mini-game".

 

If you really believe that the only valuable info you can glean from a combat log is raw dps then you really don't have a clue about what a decent combat log should be recording or what the actual purpose of a tool like recount actually is.

[ferroz]

The last game I bought before SWTOR was RIFT, I really loved that there where no addons, they came in anyway, my DPS was top but I couldn't be arsed to continue playing it since it all started to remind me so much about that other game.

Rift had a full combat log at launch, and the ability to do live parsing with 3rd party apps, including instructions on how to set up posted and stickey'd by the rift forum mods...

[Yfelsung]

Step 1: Create program that can parse your own combat log.

 

Step 2: Cause program to create private channel in game.

 

Step 3: Have everyone in a group sync their program.

 

Now the programs communicate through the ingame channel and, bam, you have DPS meters.

 

So it'll be a bit more work, but at least guilds will have DPS meters to ensure people are pulling their weight.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Yfelsung

[Raeln]

Look at it this way.

 

Professional baseball team = High end raiding guild

 

Batting average/Error made/etc= DPS/Threat/damage taken

 

If you bat below a certain percentage in baseball, or you are a lousy fielder etc you are tossed. If you DPS below a certain number expected in a high end raid guild, you don't do jack for threat as a tank, or generally die in fires... You are tossed.

 

Don't like it? Don't join a major league baseball team!!

 

If those tools were restricted to only the "major league baseball teams" in game, that would be one thing.

 

They are not. Every know_it_all_Joe_gamer will use it and think they know best. The community will suffer for it in the end.

[Raeln]

If you really believe that the only valuable info you can glean from a combat log is raw dps then you really don't have a clue about what a decent combat log should be recording or what the actual purpose of a tool like recount actually is.

 

We need better UI tools to track proc buffs and debuffs more than we need a damage meter or combat log.

 

Shoot - mouseover targeting is 5 times more important than a damage meter at this point for end game content. That is, unless you want to see a shortage of healers 10 miles long.

[BountyHuntard]

If those tools were restricted to only the "major league baseball teams" in game, that would be one thing.

 

They are not. Every know_it_all_Joe_gamer will use it and think they know best. The community will suffer for it in the end.

 

 

Fair argument. The only response I can give is to put those know it all joe gamers on ignore and never group with them.

 

However, asking to not have the tools available for those that want them because of some bad apples who don't understand the true purpose of them means that other parts of the community will suffer.

 

One part is easily fixed, the other is not.

[Felioats]

There were hardcore guilds before meters, and there will be hardcore guilds without them.

 

If you really cannot fathom how you will manage your guild without them, step down as leader/officer and let someone who played EQ in its glory days take the lead.

[Raeln]

Fair argument. The only response I can give is to put those know it all joe gamers on ignore and never group with them.

 

However, asking to not have the tools available for those that want them because of some bad apples who don't understand the true purpose of them means that other parts of the community will suffer.

 

One part is easily fixed, the other is not.

 

I wouldn't have a problem if damage meters could only be activated inside a hardmode raid zone. After all, hardmodes are the only place where they should be needed anyway.

[CapitaFK]

Parsing is an extremely effective way to judge the overall mathematical performance of a class. This means taking out all speculation on whether or not a class is overpowered or underpowered. Seeing two classes being played over a multitude of parse samples with a consistent 15-30% disparity between their damage or healing allows the community to point out to the devs that so-and-so class is overpowered or underpowered. Parses serve as empirical proof of said claim, thus eliminating heated debates over nothing but speculation.

 

You could try to argue target dummies and whatnot, but that's standstill button mashing. Bosses require movement, and DPS suffers due to movement. Balancing through real raiding is more important than balancing through target dummies, and parsing is the only way to do this. You can also argue that devs would see such a disparity, but over a decade of MMO gaming has told us otherwise.

 

At the moment, we have no real way to tell which class is overpowered or underpowered in a raid setting. We have no way to tell if Operatives/Scoundrels, being very strong in PVP, would become completely useless in PVE should their burst be nerfed. All of you against parsing, go ahead and state your argument, but I doubt it would disprove anything that I've said.

[Herbertllew]

There were hardcore guilds before meters, and there will be hardcore guilds without them.

 

If you really cannot fathom how you will manage your guild without them, step down as leader/officer and let someone who played EQ in its glory days take the lead.

 

 

"There were cars before airbags, there will be cars after them. Only casuals drive with airbags. Step aside and let a real driver drive."

[Joeymtl]

"There were cars before airbags, there will be cars after them. Only casuals drive with airbags. Step aside and let a real driver drive."

 

No offense, this is an absolutely awefull analogy

 

Parsing is an extremely effective way to judge the overall mathematical performance of a class. This means taking out all speculation on whether or not a class is overpowered or underpowered. Seeing two classes being played over a multitude of parse samples with a consistent 15-30% disparity between their damage or healing allows the community to point out to the devs that so-and-so class is overpowered or underpowered. Parses serve as empirical proof of said claim, thus eliminating heated debates over nothing but speculation.

 

You could try to argue target dummies and whatnot, but that's standstill button mashing. Bosses require movement, and DPS suffers due to movement. Balancing through real raiding is more important than balancing through target dummies, and parsing is the only way to do this. You can also argue that devs would see such a disparity, but over a decade of MMO gaming has told us otherwise.

 

At the moment, we have no real way to tell which class is overpowered or underpowered in a raid setting. We have no way to tell if Operatives/Scoundrels, being very strong in PVP, would become completely useless in PVE should their burst be nerfed. All of you against parsing, go ahead and state your argument, but I doubt it would disprove anything that I've said.

 

I find that this is actually a better reason why one would want metrics.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Skybrah]

Good no recount for group. And you know personal DPS. Now everyone wins. No loud mouth in raid shouting everyone's number's and if you ask me mine. I'll lie.

 

Exactly. Looking forward to it too.

[BountyHuntard]

There were hardcore guilds before meters, and there will be hardcore guilds without them.

 

If you really cannot fathom how you will manage your guild without them, step down as leader/officer and let someone who played EQ in its glory days take the lead.

 

Could you give us examples? The only way I see guild managing their player base is to do one on one assessment through some arbitrary means. Sorry I rather have empirical proof that someone does not suck, rather than some guild leader/class officer who thinks he knows better.

[Waypoc]

Then they can simply keep there piece and have the silent feeling (hopefully) of an impressive DPS job. There the raid does not need to know. And the player does not need to flaunt it.

 

 

As long as the raid is progressing, everyone is doing there job

 

What you fail to understand is that people enjoy this and it is part of their gameplay. Both being scrutinized and scrutinizing others performance. Entire Guilds want this. God players and bad want this. What's the problem?

 

What is wrong with that?

 

Have it as an option that you can turn off. Would that be better?

[Herbertllew]

No offense, this is an absolutely awefull analogy

 

 

 

 

Without data, I'm unable to judge the accuracy of your claim. WAIT THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR

 

It's a perfectly fine analogy. You can raid without meters. You can drive without airbags. Doing without either increases both the likelihood of and consequences of failure.