Joeymtl Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) and if the enrage timer is 4 minutes, you may not be killing them at all. I'll poke you when I need a dps meter to complete any future content this game offers. Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blutelf Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No idea if anyone's said it yet, but obviously a damage meter addon will just create a custom channel to exchange damage reports like they used to do in WoW vanilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How do you weed out the bad dps? Take each one to mobs and see who kills it quicker? Example..4 dps in your 8man raid. They are all geared fully with Columi gear, yet you are still hitting enrage timers. Who do you get rid of? All of them? What if one of them is just slacking or doesn't know their rotation? The easiest fix to this is a DPS meter to show who is slacking, and so the raid can say "Hey ____ you need to up your dps before next weeks raid, go read some rotation strats on your class and practice!" Welcome to hardcore raiding. It seems as people want best of both worlds, meaning that you want to compete at the highest difficulty of the game, but put no time into making your dps excellent. It doesn't make sense. Bad logic, sir. Considering that hardcore raiding will only affect ~5% of the playerbase at most - I'm not sure how important that will really be to the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlict Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I notice there is a lot of ill will towards the introduction of a automatic LFG tool on these forums, which is understandable. As anyone who has played 'that other MMO' has realised, the problem with a LFG tool for raid content is that it must be tuned for the lowest common denominator. In a large group, it is very easy for lazy / or ill prepared players to hide at the back, contributing little. This ofc means that encounters must be made extremely easy, which does not prepare the player for a challenging raid environment. No challenge, no satisfaction. I propose a ranking metric. Every player in the Op / Flashpoint is awarded a number of points as the encounter progresses, for contributions such as damage output, interuppts, effective healing etc ( I am having trouble coming up with values for tanking classes, suggestions welcome). Points are deducted for being AFK for ready checks, taking AOE damage etc. After each boss in the op / flashpoint, players who do not contribute a sufficient amount are removed. This could also add another method of advancement - Player Skill Level™. Every player could level up their PSL , which could unlock rewards etc I feel this method would remove the major stumbling block from LFG, and allow access to convenient, challenging content to all regardless of schedule Constructive critique is welcome, trolling is not Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waypoc Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443 That's how I interpret the quote, anyway. (EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized) And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason. This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster. LOL so is that like basically telling us to take a flying leap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Skitzopath, this is perfectly fine. Nobody is trying to take that from you. There are many people that share your same view. However, there are people that play for a different reason (progression). A progression raid wanting these to provide insight on boss encounters does not prevent you from playing how you play with your friends. For each player that will use combat logs and DPS meters well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population. Two years from now, when you guys are complaining that TOR's playerbase is just as horrid as WoWs and people want 25k DPS and 5.7 minute heroic clears, don't come crying to me. At that point, I'll tell you, "hey, you got your meters - we tried to tell you what they would do to the community, enjoy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waypoc Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster. How does this satisfy just about everyone? What about the people that want to see not only their stats but also the stats and performance of everyone else in the group/raid? Or people that want their own stats shared with everyone else in the group/raid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatsalightsaver Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Great. Looks like Bioware didn't look any further into the actual reason why logs and meters are necessary, they just assumed the only reason was to stroke our epeen. Without the ability to tell how everyone is doing, meters serve no real function. You can't see who isn't pulling their weight, and who needs to sit for next week's raid. Anonymity and no actual accountability is fun, right guys? /sarcasm sigh... Edited January 17, 2012 by Whatsalightsaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyons Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How does this satisfy just about everyone? What about the people that want to see not only their stats but also the stats and performance of everyone else in the group/raid? Or people that want their own stats shared with everyone else in the group/raid? Then they can simply keep there piece and have the silent feeling (hopefully) of an impressive DPS job. There the raid does not need to know. And the player does not need to flaunt it. As long as the raid is progressing, everyone is doing there job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Using it to stroke the E-peen is misuse of the tool. Does not further the argument for why it shouldn't be in for people to use correctly Some tools are too dangerous for public use - that is why some tools out in real life require training and certifications to purchase, own and legally possess. I'd say dynamite is a handy tool but it's not one that I'd want available to every Joe Average in the public sector. From a community perspective, I classify damage meters as dangerous to the game's community as dynamite is to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyons Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Great. Looks like Bioware didn't look any further into the actual reason why logs and meters are necessary, they just assumed the only reason was to stroke our epeen. Without the ability to tell how everyone is doing, meters serve no real function. You can't see who isn't pulling their weight, and who needs to sit for next week's raid. Anonymity and no actual accountability is fun, right guys? /sarcasm sigh... While I myself get annoyed if other players don't pull there wait, im always willing to give some advice to help with they're rotations efficiency. I find players who are not willing to do that simple act a blatant waste of time in a raid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 and if the enrage timer is 4 minutes, you may not be killing them at all. Without damage meters, enrage timers won't be that short. With damage meters, enrage timers will be. It's not rocket science here - do you pro-meter people really think they have no impact on content design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatsalightsaver Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 For each player that will use combat logs and DPS meters well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population. Two years from now, when you guys are complaining that TOR's playerbase is just as horrid as WoWs and people want 25k DPS and 5.7 minute heroic clears, don't come crying to me. At that point, I'll tell you, "hey, you got your meters - we tried to tell you what they would do to the community, enjoy." When that point comes I'll be putting out 25k dps. Meters are only a threat to players who don't have the ability to do well on them but insist on weighing the rest of the community down because they pay their $15 a month. Just because you pay $15 does not give you the right to be in a raid. When you've practiced and honed your class, and learn not to stand in fire, then you can come. It's childish and entitled to insist people carry you, or that content be nerfed to the point where you don't have to practice. I'm not calling you those names Raeln, I'm just saying the mentality is flawed. And who cares if someone linked meters and you were low on them? You act like it's some horrible travesty and social time bomb for people to be able to link them. I don't personally ever, ever link meters. I figure anyone who cares already has them running so linking it is redundant. Please stop acting like being able to tell how everyone is doing is going to crush the game. WoW's community is awful because so many children play it. Also, humans play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feliix Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Only monitoring my performance is not good enough. I know I'm good. It's everyone else I'm concerned about. So play a different well known game where the culture standard is spamming meters every trash pull and braying/complaining. Or as some have mentioned, found your own guild and require all members to submit formal meter reports if you absolutely despise pandas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briljin Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Easily falsified. Or they could spend less time just learning how to not be bad? Just an idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 When that point comes I'll be putting out 25k dps. Meters are only a threat to players who don't have the ability to do well on them but insist on weighing the rest of the community down because they pay their $15 a month. Just because you pay $15 does not give you the right to be in a raid. When you've practiced and honed your class, and learn not to stand in fire, then you can come. It's childish and entitled to insist people carry you, or that content be nerfed to the point where you don't have to practice. I'm not calling you those names Raeln, I'm just saying the mentality is flawed. And who cares if someone linked meters and you were low on them? You act like it's some horrible travesty and social time bomb for people to be able to link them. I don't personally ever, ever link meters. I figure anyone who cares already has them running so linking it is redundant. Please stop acting like being able to tell how everyone is doing is going to crush the game. WoW's community is awful because so many children play it. Also, humans play. The only time I've been "low" on the meters was when I was bringing an alt up to speed. On my main character, I'm usually always at the top. I know how to play - I also know how to spot others that are slacking. Then again, I also know how to be mindful of my own threat generation too. I thought threat meters were the most ignorant concept ever developed into an addon - yet they took off like wildfire. I could really rant on here about people bragging about having supposed "high levels of skill" right after they sprint to curse.com and download the training wheel addons to help them pilot their character to victory... I'll digress though. I figure we'll get personal DPS meters. I can live with that - I just do not want to return to the WoW era of "link achievement and must have <insert stupidly high dps number far beyond what is needed> dps". Do I have a problem reaching that dps level? only on alts, perhaps. For the most part, that mentality pushed me completely out of the pug area of the game. I just got tired of dealing with people that would rather sit and try to form a raid with their high requirements and spend 2 hours trying to do it when they could have used reasonable numbers instead, wiped once or twice and been finished already. Jerks will be jerks with or without meters, yes. Though - that doesn't mean we need to equip those same jerks with heavy armaments to spew their jerkish and elitist attitudes throughout the pug community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How does this satisfy just about everyone? Nothing will when there are two distinct camps on it. Private metrics are the compromise between fully-shared ones and none at all. What about the people that want to see not only their stats but also the stats and performance of everyone else in the group/raid? I'd say they are somewhere along the nosey end of the spectrum and I tend to default toward personal privacy. Again, when there are two conflicting positions, both sides can't have their way and this is a middleground when compared to not having such a tool at all. Or people that want their own stats shared with everyone else in the group/raid? Saying it in chat or voice or a printscreen would seem to suffice if sharing such info voluntarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) maybe a few patches down the road theyll have a fully operational combat log. no open combat log sounds like a good way for terrible players to hide how terrible they are. What about players that aren't terrible but can't be arsed with recount and all that other crap? Just thinking of people that need meters as a bunch of noobs, and I'm dead serious up on that. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febibi Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443 That's how I interpret the quote, anyway. (EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized) And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason. This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster. um.... personal logs is enough.... you dont need other players info unless you are a raid leader... all people do with them is harass personal logs at least give reason to how and why you died... as well as a look into if someone was exploiting by exploiting holes in global cooldown to use abilities faster than intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd say the ones complaining about what the game isn't are the whiners. It can seen either way but, the ones you are labelling just want the product they bought to remain as is. SWTOR was pretty clearly released without add-ons with no promises to include them. Probably a fair amount came to SWTOR to get away from such features in those other games. It's a little like following someone out of a steakhouse to a vegan restaurant, demanding they serve a sizzling steak to you and calling the clientele whiners for objecting. Not a perfect metaphor but, you are trying push what can be had alot of places on a game that many view as a haven from what you desire. The last game I bought before SWTOR was RIFT, I really loved that there where no addons, they came in anyway, my DPS was top but I couldn't be arsed to continue playing it since it all started to remind me so much about that other game. If the same thing happens for SWTOR, well of to GW2 it is, at least they will not included all this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Look at it this way. Professional baseball team = High end raiding guild Batting average/Error made/etc= DPS/Threat/damage taken If you bat below a certain percentage in baseball, or you are a lousy fielder etc you are tossed. If you DPS below a certain number expected in a high end raid guild, you don't do jack for threat as a tank, or generally die in fires... You are tossed. Don't like it? Don't join a major league baseball team!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Got a double post somehow (Damn back button!) Edited January 17, 2012 by BountyHuntard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idunhavaname Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Good, that's all I ask <3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Look at it this way. Professional baseball team = High end raiding guild Batting average/Error made/etc= DPS/Threat/damage taken If you bat below a certain percentage in baseball, or you are a lousy fielder etc you are tossed. If you DPS below a certain number expected in a high end raid guild, you don't do jack for threat as a tank, or generally die in fires... You are tossed. Don't like it? Don't join a major league baseball team!! I am pretty sure SWTOR is intended to be alot closer to beer league softball than it is the MLB. Doesn't stop people from playing intensely but, no one is getting paid or removed from it based on their performance. Maybe you keep the score but, no official scorer that really bothers with keeping other people's BA w/RISP and more detailed stats. Look at SWTOR compared to WoW or some other games and tell me that this game does not seem to be aimed at more casual players. Edited January 17, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyHuntard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am pretty sure SWTOR is intended to be alot closer to beer league softball than it is the MLB. Doesn't stop people from playing intensely but, no one is getting paid or removed from it based on their performance. Maybe you keep the score but, no official scorer that really bothers with keeping other people's BA w/RISP and more detailed stats. Look at SWTOR compared to WoW or some other games and tell me that this game does not seem to be aimed at more casual players. That's fine. Anyone is free to join a beer league baseball / softball team. The point is you're not forced to join a team that is in it to win it. As said in my last post.. Don't like it? Don't join a major league baseball team!! The problem isn't the meters.. It's the community that you play with. No one is forcing anyone to use or do anything, but when you sign up with a community that does, it's your own fault. There are plenty of guilds out their who don't use meters; you are welcome to join them. Asking to not have combat logs that shows everyone's performance in a massive multilayer game kinda defeats the purpose of a game based on numbers. If this were not the case, bosses should not have enrage timers (Time required for a boss to be defeated before killing everyone f they don't do enough DPS). This is not the case however and thus requires the utilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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