In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[ferroz]

I bet you any amount of money they are doing it like this because they cant handle performance issues. Having more in the log then just you would bring their code to its knees.

doubtful; your client already has all of this info sent to it. logging it just requires writing it to a file.

[ferroz]

yes but there are also games that are and or were successful that did not have them. Just wanted to add that in as I agree with everything you said.

examples?

[ferroz]

Based on what exactly? Again I ask you to provide irrefutable evidence to prove it as fact. Just because you say so, means absolutely nothing, without proof to the contrary.

It's pretty straight forward.

• People will judge regardless. If you want to debate this, feel free but you're going to look very silly
  
• Without the meters they will be judging based on guessing rather than quantifiable data, since they'll lack any quantifiable data.
  
• ergo without meters there will be more judging based on guessing that there would be with meters. This is a fact.
  

[Morcova]

Meters and parsers help you win the game.

 

 

Please explain how.

[Morcova]

I find funny that the elitist and/or good players are asking for performance metrics.

 

In my opinion, good players are players that are able to tell if someone is doing good or bad without the help of any tools. You all have something called eyes and a brain.

 

Ok so using your eyes and your brain tell me how you tell which of your dps isn't putting out enough dps.

[ferroz]

Any of you played WoW without any addons? Please do. Where the hell is the damage meter, exactly.

Fully functional combat log.

 

Why do you think BW would add a damage meter to their game, nobody else does it.

Because they already have one. Edited January 16, 2012 by ferroz

[Sky_walkerPL]

Ok so using your eyes and your brain tell me how you tell which of your dps isn't putting out enough dps.

 

Right click, Inspect player, Look in right spot, Profit.

In case of DPS it's exceptionally easy to find out.

[Joeymtl]

Ok so using your eyes and your brain tell me how you tell which of your dps isn't putting out enough dps.

 

You watch which class he's playing. You have the knowledge to know what is a good dps rotation for that class against specific mobs. And, since all abilities have player feedback from an animation, a sound, or a VFX, you can see if he's using it.

 

You also can determine with experience what is an acceptable kill time for a specific mob depending on the composition of your team.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Aenoria]

Well we know how guild recruitment is going to go then

 

Do a flashpoint with the new guild or a flashpoint (and post screenshots of your preformance).

Or there would be a way to export this information out of game like combat logs.. (if thats the case you will need to upload these)

 

And if you think i find this bad no. I would hate nothing more then if or when i would ever raid in SWTOR to carry people who cant do there jobs properly.

[Nurvus]

You guys need to realize SWTOR has performance issues.

They wouldn't dare have operation-wide combat logs.

 

Or, hopefully, they're just making a good call - in my opinion.

 

Suggestion: It would be nice to have access to a Scoreboard, much like in Warzones, when you kill a boss.

 

But as for ongoing meters, I rather players are only able to see their own.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Nurvus

[Chevex]

I agree with this mostly but I do like to be able to compare my performance to others in my group so I know how I'm doing in relation to them.

[steezi]

There will always be the hardcore who want to complete Nightmare ops successfully and need DPS meters to do so. Many of you probably are still leveling and haven't seen the end-game of SWTOR so far. Everything hard-mode and above is very simple BESIDES the fact that every boss has a short enrage timer. The enrage timers means you need good DPS to be successful. To ensure DPS, you need DPS meters. You can blame Bioware for this if you want, because they created a game in which the hardest thing to do is just beat the DPS race (enrage). (It isn't hard, but it's definitely the breaking point of bad groups)

 

 

To those people who think the quality of game is reduced by DPS meters; you are usually the bads, who usually get carried by others through things. DPS isn't just what the gear is, it's a rotation and consistency of rotation. Sometimes peoples computers or internet connection doesn't allow them top-tier dps. Sorry to hear that, but the end-game raiders want to finish content.

 

 

Simple solution.. add DPS meters to the game. If you don't want to be in a guild who won't take you because your dps is low, then don't join the guilds that want to progress in the hardest content of the game.

Edited January 16, 2012 by steezi

[Silanah]

I love tanking for pugs and touching enrage timers every boss at 30% HP because they are terrible

[Joeymtl]

There will always be the hardcore who want to complete Nightmare ops successfully and need DPS meters to do so. Many of you probably are still leveling and haven't seen the end-game of SWTOR so far. Everything hard-mode and above is very simple BESIDES the fact that every boss has a short enrage timer. The enrage timers means you need good DPS to be successful. To ensure DPS, you need DPS meters. You can blame Bioware for this if you want, because they created a game in which the hardest thing to do is just beat the DPS race (enrage). (It isn't hard, but it's definitely the breaking point of bad groups)

 

 

To those people who think the quality of game is reduced by DPS meters; you are usually the bads, who usually get carried by others through things. DPS isn't just what the gear is, it's a rotation and consistency of rotation. Sometimes peoples computers or internet connection doesn't allow them top-tier dps. Sorry to hear that, but the end-game raiders want to finish content.

 

 

Simple solution.. add DPS meters to the game. If you don't want to be in a guild who won't take you because your dps is low, then don't join the guilds that want to progress in the hardest content of the game.

 

What is enrage if not a DPS performance feedback?

[Raeln]

What is enrage if not a DPS performance feedback?

 

It is, but it became a tool for devs to reintroduce challenge after damage meters led to perfected specs and rotations in, "that other game".

 

When the original "enrage timer" was set for DPS efficiency of 75% of maximum but players with damage meters are pumping out 92% of maximum efficiency - the encounters tend to feel easy - thus, enrage timers are tightened to require that 92% baseline on future encounters.

 

At that point - everyone has to use damage meters to get the content down without overgearing it.

[steezi]

What is enrage if not a DPS performance feedback?

 

 

How do you weed out the bad dps? Take each one to mobs and see who kills it quicker?

 

Example..4 dps in your 8man raid. They are all geared fully with Columi gear, yet you are still hitting enrage timers. Who do you get rid of? All of them? What if one of them is just slacking or doesn't know their rotation?

 

The easiest fix to this is a DPS meter to show who is slacking, and so the raid can say "Hey ____ you need to up your dps before next weeks raid, go read some rotation strats on your class and practice!"

 

 

Welcome to hardcore raiding. It seems as people want best of both worlds, meaning that you want to compete at the highest difficulty of the game, but put no time into making your dps excellent. It doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

 

Bad logic, sir.

[ProfessorWalsh]

There will always be the hardcore who want to complete Nightmare ops successfully and need DPS meters to do so. Many of you probably are still leveling and haven't seen the end-game of SWTOR so far. Everything hard-mode and above is very simple BESIDES the fact that every boss has a short enrage timer. The enrage timers means you need good DPS to be successful. To ensure DPS, you need DPS meters. You can blame Bioware for this if you want, because they created a game in which the hardest thing to do is just beat the DPS race (enrage). (It isn't hard, but it's definitely the breaking point of bad groups)

 

This argument is flawed.

 

The enrage timers mean you need good DPS to be successful.

 

This statement is true.

 

To ensure DPS, you need DPS meters.

 

This statement is not true.

 

Why?

 

We have been doing Hard Modes already.

 

Heck I did one this morning at precisely 9am Eastern time on the Lord Adraas RP server. We successfully completed the Hard Mode without any undue amount of death. (We had one wipe, which was caused because we missed an interrupt that is required to stop a specific attack from Ironfist.)

[ProfessorWalsh]

How do you weed out the bad dps? Take each one to mobs and see who kills it quicker?

 

Example..4 dps in your 8man raid. They are all geared fully with Columi gear, yet you are still hitting enrage timers. Who do you get rid of? All of them? What if one of them is just slacking or doesn't know their rotation?

 

The easiest fix to this is a DPS meter to show who is slacking, and so the raid can say "Hey ____ you need to up your dps before next weeks raid, go read some rotation strats on your class and practice!"

 

Welcome to hardcore raiding. It seems as people want best of both worlds, meaning that you want to compete at the highest difficulty of the game, but put no time into making your dps excellent. It doesn't make sense.

 

Bad logic, sir.

 

Or, instead of needing a meter, if you just watch the group. You, as a leader, if you are competent, should know each class and their rotations. You should have a working idea of how long those rotations take, what the animations look like, and you should be able to see if there is a pause between actions (IE if someone is slacking off.).

 

You don't need a meter to do that for you.

 

For example:

 

The rotation I gave our earlier should look like this:

 

The Sentinel swings both sabers, right, then left, in a basic midsection ranged sequential horizontal attack.

 

The Sentinel does a simultaneous attack, only starting higher, with both weapons.

 

The Sentinel does a series of two right facing horizontal strikes in a close sequence.

 

The Sentinel swings through with the right hand then follows up with the left hand.

 

The Sentinel should at this point launch into a secondary strike that looks like a full extension horizontal attack. It will flash at the point of impact.

 

The Sentinel will pull their blade back, and do a slash which releases an energy wave from their blade.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[steezi]

Or, instead of needing a meter, if you just watch the group. You, as a leader, if you are competent, should know each class and their rotations. You should have a working idea of how long those rotations take, what the animations look like, and you should be able to see if there is a pause between actions (IE if someone is slacking off.).

 

You don't need a meter to do that for you.

Your above post said that you are already doing hard modes without dps meters. I'm not talking about hard-mode dungeons, we were clearing those the day of real release when we first hit 50, they are very simple. Nightmare operations are a different story, especially on 16-man.

 

 

Your example is just outright dumb. You're saying instead of just including something valuable, you should just have one player dedicated to watching everyone else? Really?

 

You must not have much raiding experience if you think that one player can constantly watch others, during a fight in which you're also working to heal/tank/dps and avoid mechanics. Any really hard boss mechanic requires attention. Obviously after months of farming something you'd have that time, but definitely not while trying to progress.

 

 

This is just more and more work for no reason. Why not just include a meter?

[Valkirus]

It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

 

 

That's how I interpret the quote, anyway.

 

(EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized)

 

And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason.

 

This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster.

 

Good.

[KorrigTS]

Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable solution to this problem.

 

Watch everyone's animation and listen to their combat sounds. Do this while healing the raid, watching debuffs, cleansing, not standing in the fire, and make sure to tune out the other sounds from the fight. You have more than two eyes and two ears for a reason guys... use them

[steezi]

 

 

For example:

 

The rotation I gave our earlier should look like this:

 

The Sentinel swings both sabers, right, then left, in a basic midsection ranged sequential horizontal attack.

 

The Sentinel does a simultaneous attack, only starting higher, with both weapons.

 

The Sentinel does a series of two right facing horizontal strikes in a close sequence.

 

The Sentinel swings through with the right hand then follows up with the left hand.

 

The Sentinel should at this point launch into a secondary strike that looks like a full extension horizontal attack. It will flash at the point of impact.

 

The Sentinel will pull their blade back, and do a slash which releases an energy wave from their blade.

 

 

lol....... ridiculous statement. How about fights like council or the puzzle fight in EV? How are you going to watch someone out of your sight?

 

 

How about future fights where you can't visually see others?

 

Come on man....these arguments aren't viable in a 2012 MMO.

 

 

 

By the way, all we need is a personal combat log to use external programs to read it and display your DPS. Which is already going to happen, deal with it.

[steezi]

Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable solution to this problem.

 

Watch everyone's animation and listen to their combat sounds. Do this while healing the raid, watching debuffs, cleansing, not standing in the fire, and make sure to tune out the other sounds from the fight. You have more than two eyes and two ears for a reason guys... use them

 

I know right? We as human's literally gain the Force while playing this game, so we are able to do so.

 

Edited January 16, 2012 by steezi

[KorrigTS]

Elitism is a problem with a person, not a tool. Meters and logs are tools, and very useful ones at that. Again, tools do not cause elitism. Quit blaming meters because some people like to flaunt their e-peen

[Chosenxeno]

Never thought I'd get tired of telling a few of the Anti-meter people why they are wrong, and why they are actually the ones being childish. Nice to see that there are a few people picking up the slack