In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Setanian]

So don't join a guild that requires combat logs, problem solved.

 

I won't but that is not the debate. If memory served the OP opened with a PuG scenario. Not a guild scenario. I don't care either way what guild decide to encumber themselves with.

[Chosenxeno]

Do you have one measurement based in fact to support this? A link will suffice.

 

How about explaining why guessing is better? I don't want people "guessing" it's the healer everytime something goes wrong. I've seen this with parsers. There's no way that this won't increase without. And i'm not guessing. It's a fact:)

Edited January 14, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Setanian]

I disagree. They need to get in here to see the "against" people's arguments and do what makes sense. Raid/Groupwide parsing available for all to see. I do not want to put up with people making assumptions that i'm not doing enough healing because the Rogue isn't interrupting fire balls of death or That some caster isn't dispelling because he's decided that shooting the Boss' is more fun.

 

You need to separate your argument or point of view.

 

No one that is anti-combat log has posted whether they care about guild scenarios. We all know and accept that guilds are entitled to dictate their own joining requirements.

 

How-ever in a PuG, no one has any right to dictate anything but the leader. If the leader dictates I am required to upload a combat log, well he'll be told where to stick his request. Likewise If I create a group and someone asks me to upload a log before they'll PuG with me, they'll be told to look for another group to join.

 

It's quite simple. You can have your combat logs. But don't expect everyone to conform with your requirement of those logs.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Kserberus]

 

It's quite simple. You can have your combat logs. But don't expect everyone to conform with your requirement of those logs.

 

Thats fine, give us logs and meters and stay away from our groups. So do i stay away from yours then

 

So win/win for everybody

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kserberus

[Setanian]

How about explaining why guessing is better?

 

By this I assume your claim of intelligent raid design was pulled out of your *** and you cannot back it up with any facts at all.

 

I don't want people "guessing" it's the healer everytime something goes wrong. I've seen this with parsers. There's no way that this won't increase without. And i'm not guessing. It's a fact:)

 

Based on what exactly? Again I ask you to provide irrefutable evidence to prove it as fact. Just because you say so, means absolutely nothing, without proof to the contrary.

 

This is about the 5th time I have asked you to provide proof of your assertions of fact. You have yet to provide any. I can only conclude from this that you expousing your opinion as fact in the vain hope that someone else will latch onto you and help you out.

[Setanian]

Thats fine, give us logs and meters and stay away from our groups. So do i stay away from yours then

 

So win/win for everybody

 

If you'll just provide your name and server I'll be only to delighted to flag you as someone not to group with.

[zolthie]

By this I assume your claim of intelligent raid design was pulled out of your *** and you cannot back it up with any facts at all.

 

 

 

Based on what exactly? Again I ask you to provide irrefutable evidence to prove it as fact. Just because you say so, means absolutely nothing, without proof to the contrary.

 

This is about the 5th time I have asked you to provide proof of your assertions of fact. You have yet to provide any. I can only conclude from this that you expousing your opinion as fact in the vain hope that someone else will latch onto you and help you out.

 

Do you really need facts to prove that guessing is not a viable solution for end game raiding in an MMO?

 

I'd love to see your facts that proves that 100% guessing on who is bad/underperforming is an intelligent raid design.

Edited January 14, 2012 by zolthie

[Kserberus]

If you'll just provide your name and server I'll be only to delighted to flag you as someone not to group with.

 

Jarkai Sword

 

Deadmauz

[Chosenxeno]

You need to separate your argument or point of view.

 

No one that is anti-combat log has posted whether they care about guild scenarios. We all know and accept that guilds are entitled to dictate their own joining requirements.

 

How-ever in a PuG, no one has any right to dictate anything but the leader. If the leader dictates I am required to upload a combat log, well he'll be told where to stick his request. Likewise If I create a group and someone asks me to upload a log before they'll PuG with me, they'll be told to look for another group to join.

 

It's quite simple. You can have your combat logs. But don't expect everyone to conform with your requirement of those logs.

 

I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interrupting.

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

 

Why is it OK for my role Healer to be instantly blamed when things go bad when we have could have proof that it's not us?

 

How in the world is not knowing the above better for any of us?

Why do you assume that only DPSing meter whores want this?

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for monitoring Damage output.

 

 

You cannot tell me that the 4 things in italics isn't relevant to pugs or give me answers for what is bold. I am not being mean when I say this( For Mods: I admit I was kinda earlier and yea you got me lol), but you have no real Argument if you are against.

 

The fact that I am a healer alone kills the Epeener Argument.

 

"Guess who sucks" is not a successful raid model.

 

Doing the 4 things in italics have gotten more people removed than output in a PuG.

 

Output is only a factor when everything else seems to be going right.

 

You have the choice of not joining a Guild that Requires you to install addons, parsers ect.

 

I could go on and on and on:cool:

[hushia]

I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interrupting.

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

 

Why is it OK for my role Healer to be instantly blamed when things go bad when we have could have proof that it's not us?

 

How in the world is not knowing the above better for any of us?

Why do you assume that only DPSing meter whores want this?

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for monitoring Damage output.

 

 

You cannot tell me that the 4 things in italics isn't relevant to pugs or give me answers for what is bold. I am not being mean when I say this( For Mods: I admit I was kinda earlier and yea you got me lol), but you have no real Argument if you are against.

 

The fact that I am a healer alone kills the Epeener Argument.

 

"Guess who sucks" is not a successful raid model.

 

Doing the 4 things in italics have gotten more people removed than output in a PuG.

 

Output is only a factor when everything else seems to be going right.

 

You have the choice of not joining a Guild that Requires you to install addons, parsers ect.

 

I could go on and on and on:cool:

 

I agree with some poster above.. let's close this thread so we don't have to see this person quote himself for a fifth time..

[Setanian]

Do you really need facts to prove that guessing is not a viable solution for end game raiding in an MMO?

 

I'd love to see your facts that proves that 100% guessing on who is bad/underperforming is an intelligent raid design.

 

I raided 9 years on EQ1, ranked #16 server wide as a tank. Was in the #3 server-wide guild for server firsts.

 

I never once used a combat log/parser or dps meter.

[Chosenxeno]

I agree with some poster above.. let's close this thread so we don't have to see this person quote himself for a fifth time..

 

The truth is scary:)

[Setanian]

I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interrupting.

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

 

Why is it OK for my role Healer to be instantly blamed when things go bad when we have could have proof that it's not us?

 

How in the world is not knowing the above better for any of us?

Why do you assume that only DPSing meter whores want this?

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for monitoring Damage output.

 

 

You cannot tell me that the 4 things in italics isn't relevant to pugs or give me answers for what is bold. I am not being mean when I say this( For Mods: I admit I was kinda earlier and yea you got me lol), but you have no real Argument if you are against.

 

The fact that I am a healer alone kills the Epeener Argument.

 

"Guess who sucks" is not a successful raid model.

 

Doing the 4 things in italics have gotten more people removed than output in a PuG.

 

Output is only a factor when everything else seems to be going right.

 

You have the choice of not joining a Guild that Requires you to install addons, parsers ect.

 

I could go on and on and on:cool:

 

# 1 I see your and acknowledge your plight. You will see I posted elsewhere where I was also a healer and had a problem with a player relying on logs/parsers/meters in a bad way.

 

#2 All BW have agreed they are going to implement at some point is a combat log. That log as far as I can see will only be of use after the fight/event. I don't see anywhere where it will aid you mid fight/event

 

#3 If you want meters/parsers/logs whatever, you have every right to fight for them as much as I have every right to fight against them.

[Ceifwien]

I raided 9 years on EQ1, ranked #16 server wide as a tank. Was in the #3 server-wide guild for server firsts.

 

I never once used a combat log/parser or dps meter.

 

Wow you're old. Didn't you get a job/life somewhere along the line

 

I kid... you can't compare old school to today's gaming/raiding priorities. Meters are part and parcel of MMOs now, and like it or not they are coming here too, and there will be more. Maybe your type of gaming is disappearing?

[Kabloosh]

I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interrupting.

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

 

Why is it OK for my role Healer to be instantly blamed when things go bad when we have could have proof that it's not us?

 

How in the world is not knowing the above better for any of us?

Why do you assume that only DPSing meter whores want this?

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for monitoring Damage output.

 

 

You cannot tell me that the 4 things in italics isn't relevant to pugs or give me answers for what is bold. I am not being mean when I say this( For Mods: I admit I was kinda earlier and yea you got me lol), but you have no real Argument if you are against.

 

The fact that I am a healer alone kills the Epeener Argument.

 

"Guess who sucks" is not a successful raid model.

 

Doing the 4 things in italics have gotten more people removed than output in a PuG.

 

Output is only a factor when everything else seems to be going right.

 

You have the choice of not joining a Guild that Requires you to install addons, parsers ect.

 

I could go on and on and on:cool:

 

Linking the death meters always gets some good laughs.

 

DPS meters are more then flaunting around your DPS. Its good to have quick analyses of the situation and catching the guy not swapping to adds. Or who is doing all the interrupting and who is not doing any interrupting? Unfortunately such criticism shouldn't be necessary if people were simply paying attention to the fight mechanics.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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[zolthie]

I raided 9 years on EQ1, ranked #16 server wide as a tank. Was in the #3 server-wide guild for server firsts.

 

I never once used a combat log/parser or dps meter.

 

So that is your argument? That you were in a top 3 server-wide guild without using combat log/dps meter in EverQuest 1 and therefore SWTOR doesn't need any logs or damage meters but to have people guessing who did what, perhaps raid leader should roll the dice and kick someone based on what he rolled?

 

Really?

[OsarionRDM]

You want to join my heroic pug.. I'll force you to upload a combat log from within the last week to a website validating your claims of being able to defeat content.

 

I need a reason to start programming web pages again.

 

OMG it's TAHANA!! Oh please pick us to join your über l337 pickup group! Pleeeeeeaaaaaaase!

 

 

....rofl. Someone needs to fall out of love with themselves. Badly. But sure, I'll upload something for you. You like malicious code, right?

 

 

/support self-only combat logs.

Edited January 14, 2012 by OsarionRDM

[Chosenxeno]

I raided 9 years on EQ1, ranked #16 server wide as a tank. Was in the #3 server-wide guild for server firsts.

 

I never once used a combat log/parser or dps meter.

 

Raided WOW for 6. Was in Vanguard(played it until I hit level 30) at launch. I have a 50 in Rift. I have an Evie in Vindictus. and you were quite selective in your answering. Your argument just keeps switching. You cannot fully answer the post.

 

 

I did however field your request to prove the relevance of a Parser in PuGs lol

 

Also all 3 of the games I mentioned have Parsers and 2 have more players than EQ. Everyday I exposed at least 1 EQer for their desire to have this game turned into EQ.

 

You seem to think it's EQ VS WOW when in reality it's :

 

Masochism and Archaic Design Philosophies VS Accessibility:cool:

 

I bid thee farewell. I must decide wherest I shall place this latest notch I have aquired for my belt.

[Vydor_HC]

From reading what Bioware posted, it looks like they have discussed this issue internally and have decided that personal logs are what's best for the game. The reason they emphasized the word "your" in the post says to me that's how they feel about this argument.

[Setanian]

Wow you're old. Didn't you get a job/life somewhere along the line

 

I kid... you can't compare old school to today's gaming/raiding priorities. Meters are part and parcel of MMOs now, and like it or not they are coming here too, and there will be more. Maybe your type of gaming is disappearing?

 

I have no doubt they are. But that does not preclude me from playing SW:ToR. Neither does it preclude me from telling anyone asking me for a log to go F'themselves

 

I play the way I want to. It relaxes me after long days in work. The last thing I need is someone asking me for logs to prove my worth to them at their discretion.

 

If the MMO fraternity wish to make the game into a chore, that is there prerogative, as it is mine to ignore them.

[Vydor_HC]

I raided 9 years on EQ1, ranked #16 server wide as a tank. Was in the #3 server-wide guild for server firsts.

 

I never once used a combat log/parser or dps meter.

 

This is true, logs have never been needed, however they are so prevalent these days, that raiders honestly feel they cannot raid without them, hence the angst for them not being included.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Setanian]

So that is your argument? That you were in a top 3 server-wide guild without using combat log/dps meter in EverQuest 1 and therefore SWTOR doesn't need any logs or damage meters but to have people guessing who did what, perhaps raid leader should roll the dice and kick someone based on what he rolled?

 

Really?

 

Why did you use #6 fonts? are you unable to come to an online forums and debate without them?

 

You asked on what I based my answer. I answered you. Now will you be so kind as to answer me; Why do require parsers/logs/meters to win on content that was provided to you without the availability of said tools?

 

If possible, try to do it without the large letters, this time.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Setanian

[Setanian]

Raided WOW for 6. Was in Vanguard(played it until I hit level 30) at launch. I have a 50 in Rift. I have an Evie in Vindictus. and you were quite selective in your answering. Your argument just keeps switching. You cannot fully answer the post.

 

 

I did however field your request to prove the relevance of a Parser in PuGs lol

 

Also all 3 of the games I mentioned have Parsers and 2 have more players than EQ. Everyday I exposed at least 1 EQer for their desire to have this game turned into EQ.

 

You seem to think it's EQ VS WOW when in reality it's :

 

Masochism and Archaic Design Philosophies VS Accessibility:cool:

 

I bid thee farewell. I must decide wherest I shall place this latest notch I have aquired for my belt.

 

I've tried to debate this as much as possible with you on a 1 to 1 basis, hoping you could do the same without insult and with facts to back up your assertions rather than pure conjecture.

 

I see now, you are a waste of my time.

 

What your personal habits are with your belt is of no concern to me. Your posting them is indicative of all the other drivel you posted.

 

But indeed, fare thee well.

[Chosenxeno]

Requesting Lock.

 

I have proved the need for meters/parsers, their relevance in pugs and raids beyond output and people secret desires to have this game placed in the mold of a game built around Masochism and Archaic Design Philosphies vs anything that screams Accessibility.

 

 

Quite Frankly, i'm tired of sparring with people that came from bad games like EQ1 and those "Vanilla WOW"(I do not care if we played the same game we are enemies!) fanboys that outright ignore the fact that WOW became more successful when it became more accessible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bah who am I kidding. Telling people they're wrong and then proving it is fun:)

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Chosenxeno]

I've tried to debate this as much as possible with you on a 1 to 1 basis, hoping you could do the same without insult and with facts to back up your assertions rather than pure conjecture.

 

I see now, you are a waste of my time.

 

What your personal habits are with your belt is of no concern to me. Your posting them is indicative of all the other drivel you posted.

 

But indeed, fare thee well.

 

LOL I have given you facts.

 

You said they had no relevance in Pugs. The 4 Italic items proved that they were.

 

You on the other hand have not proven why they are not or Why it's fun for a "blame magnet role" to not be able to prove it's innocence.

 

You have not proven why"guess who sucks" is better than knowing. I've had quite a few quote my post and agree. you have not. That other EQer does not count. He only serves to prove my point that you want EQ with Wookies and Lightsabers.