In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Aryzyra]

I'm upset that people try to FORCE an APP that collects MY personal information. It's the wrong way to play purely on number's. Sipping mountain dew and yelling at people who are "not on par" it's not the way games should be played. It should be played based on interaction/fun/and talking not "Numbers"

 

That should answer it. So now you KNOW your personal DPS and I know MINE. That should be enough. Maybe if not so bad wouldn't need a mod to tell you how to fight. What to do and when to do it.

 

Do you have flytext off? Honest question.

[aznthecapn]

1. Tunnel Vision

 

Its entirely up to the player if they tunnel vision or not. I played a shadow priest in WoW and had no problem enjoying the scenery while I played and still put out top numbers. I did as as a tank and a hunter as well. All since Vanilla raiding.

 

2. Promotes a Leet Attiude

 

Not everyone. Most people will be content to enjoy playing and not worry about the meter. You're talking about a tiny 5% of the population that you don't even have to interact with if you choose not to.

 

3. It doesn't make you a leet-

 

This is patently untrue. Sorry. You're wrong.

 

I'm upset that people try to FORCE an APP that collects MY personal information. It's the wrong way to play purely on number's. Sipping mountain dew and yelling at people who are "not on par" it's not the way games should be played. It should be played based on interaction/fun/and talking not "Numbers"

 

None of this is your "personal information". Using that term in an attempt to sound somehow violated on a real level is silly. Its DPS numbers. If yours are fine you have nothing to worry about.

[ICarriere]

Which is what you could have done anyway with open meters in game. This whole 'I don't want people to see my data because they might call me out" stuff is pretty sad.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Pretty sad that somebody on the first page said they'll lie about their output. Do you suck that bad that you're scared to post real stats?

 

If you know how to play your class you shouldn't be afraid to share your stats. You should want to share your stats if you're any good...

[Chosenxeno]

( yrs raiding on Everquest without add-ons or meters or even worrying about it. I'm not the one who can't play or is in any way ignorant.

 

What you people are saying is you cannot raid unless you have more tools to help you raid and win.

 

Sounds like care-bear raiding to me.

 

Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People?

 

I finished Dark Souls but hated Skyrim because it wasn't brutal enough. Do I sit around resenting Skyrim for not being as Brutal as Dark Souls, outselling it and then sweeping every Publications GOTY Awards? No I understand that Accessibility will always win out over Niche thus I do not fight it. Fighting against anything that makes a Genre like Massive Multiplayer Online Games more accessible is counter to what they are supposed to be about. To be Massive you need to be inclusive. I dunno about you but I want to play in a World that feels Massive. You can't achieve that with 100 people.

 

 

 

This is also for DragonAgeOrigins too. Explain your logic for not wanting a game that is supposed to be Massive to not be more inclusive. That is ultimately what you are asking isn't it? Fine EQ didn't have this but is it truly as "Massive" as it could be? More People = more Massive and i'm pretty sure the games that do allow Parsers have more Subs/people.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Jett-Rinn]

Woah woah woah woah! Now I'm two posts over my "done with this" line, but I really have to comment on this. Go back and actually compare the number and severity of insults with fresh eyes. Seriously, go look.

 

I wasn't always nice, I admit, but go look at your side of the fence again. Actually look without bias.

 

I have I actually have been doing that the thing is most of the nastiness (And I'm talking about really insulting remarks) has been deleted and yeah the vast majority is from the pro meter crowd. You personally have been condescending at times...but never as outrageous as a lot of them. That is not to say the other side of the fence is innocent...but really if the rude behavior wasn't there we might be looking at a different situation now.

[Rankith]

1. Tunnel Vision- It promotes this way of distracting yourself from the entire fight. Instead of looking at the content having fun. Button smashing to get the MAX dps even though a half decent group could down it easily without that. It distracts from overall fight.

 

Um, don't tunnel vision if you don't want? Sure the first time I do a fight I like to take in the sights and all that stuff, but o go number 6+ I push as hard as I can to keep it entertaining.

 

2. Promotes a Leet Attiude- It makes this ego over the internet. As if we need more of that. People spamming requirement's for stranger's. Instead of getting to know each other, liking each other for who we are. It makes the community act even worse then they are to each other.

Leet Attitude exists no matter what. If you don't like it, don't group with people that are going to be that way... seems simple to me.

 

3. It doesn't make you a leet- It's a weakess. If you truely need a recount to know what DPS is the max. Then your simply not as good as you thought. I played raids in everquest we didn't have a thousand and one add on's and when we died. We had locate our body or we wouldn't have our gear.

No, its not a weakness. Its impossible to know how good you are doing with no feedback of this kind. Sure, once people math out the correct rotations etc, I wouldn't really need recount as I would just be doing the correct rotation. It still helps me improve and push for 100% though as I can see exactly what I did wrong. If someone could do that without recount then... they are godmode.

 

I'm upset that people try to FORCE an APP that collects MY personal information. It's the wrong way to play purely on number's. Sipping mountain dew and yelling at people who are "not on par" it's not the way games should be played. It should be played based on interaction/fun/and talking not "Numbers"

Says you? My fun is based on those "Numbers" for the majority of content. If you don't care about them, group/guild with people that also don't care, problem solved.

 

That should answer it. So now you KNOW your personal DPS and I know MINE. That should be enough. Maybe if not so bad wouldn't need a mod to tell you how to fight. What to do and when to do it.

Yeah for the most part this is fine. Just gonna be akward on a boss that has a certain dps requirement when every dps says theirs is over the minimum required lol.

[SpeckledHen]

You have no clue what a combat log is do you? You can't Photoshop it. It is literally a second by second log of your combat. To even attempt to edit it is THOUSANDS of lines just for one person. All damage to you and done by you is logged..

 

Ctrl F and Replace. Would that not do it? I guess it would be pretty obvious if all your damage logs were the same, though. lol. Shrug.

[Thundercast]

It doesn't seem clear to many here that Bioware still hasn't decided anything, plus that such a system is unavoidable in a guild structures. Big guilds have by far more weight than you and I and they will ask for it. If you're saying that it's unneeded it's probably because you're talking about flashpoints, questing, etc. But Nightmare raid without it ? Well either it'll be impossible, either the raid be really, really bad (a good strategy = a lot of data to take into account = data needed to find how to improve the tries).

Plus you forgot something else in the recent announcements : the future development of addons. And you won't avoid it : it'll be one of the first addons developped. Once again, high level pve, if swtor if capable of it, would be ridiculous without combat logs to improve performances, test applicants, etc. But yep, it's useless for flashpoints.

[Chosenxeno]

Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People?

 

I finished Dark Souls but hated Skyrim because it wasn't brutal enough. Do I sit around resenting Skyrim for not being as Brutal as Dark Souls, outselling it and then sweeping every Publications GOTY Awards? No I understand that Accessibility will always win out over Niche thus I do not fight it. Fighting against anything that makes a Genre like Massive Multiplayer Online Games more accessible is counter to what they are supposed to be about. To be Massive you need to be inclusive. I dunno about you but I want to play in a World that feels Massive. You can't achieve that with 100 people.

 

 

 

Explain your logic for not wanting a game that is supposed to be Massive to not be more inclusive. That is ultimately what you are asking isn't it? Fine EQ didn't have this but is it truly as "Massive" as it could be? More People = more Massive and i'm pretty sure the games that do allow Parsers have more Subs/people.

 

 

 

 

 

Still waiting on Setanian and DragonAgeOrigins to tell me why i'm wrong.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Setanian]

For some, all that matter is the kill. Flavor, spec variance, gear variance, etc are all just roadblocks that prevent a kill. Games are for many types of people. Its the job of Bioware to cater to as many demographics as they can without alienating the others. Hence their desire to add a feature like combat log parsing for half the playerbase but doing so in a slow and considerate manner that doesn't piss off the other half.

 

I agree games are for many people. How-ever, what I see is this;

 

Your guild demands you do x amount of dps on this boss encounter. If you all do that, you guarantee the outcome, i.e.: a win.

 

It's really not worth playing if you are guaranteed the win every time now is it? Basically you have every boss on farm and you loot easy gear.

 

Where exactly is the game? The only challenge is for your guild to ensure it has enough cookie-cutter spec'd players to do the dps and face-roll the rotations.

[Jett-Rinn]

It doesn't seem clear to many here that Bioware still hasn't decided anything, plus that such a system is unavoidable in a guild structures. Big guilds have by far more weight than you and I and they will ask for it. If you're saying that it's unneeded it's probably because you're talking about flashpoints, questing, etc. But Nightmare raid without it ? Well either it'll be impossible, either the raid be really, really bad (a good strategy = a lot of data to take into account = data needed to find how to improve the tries).

Plus you forgot something else in the recent announcements : the future development of addons. And you won't avoid it : it'll be one of the first addons developped. Once again, high level pve, if swtor if capable of it, would be ridiculous without combat logs to improve performances, test applicants, etc. But yep, it's useless for flashpoints.

 

That's all been pretty much covered there isn't going to be open addons like in Wow it will be Bioware approved...which means very limited. Bioware is also concerned about security so the add ons that will be available will probably only be downloadable from Bioware.

 

Any type of log that we get will more than likely be built into the UI and will just show your stats..

Edited January 12, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Revelationjp]

My disagreement with a full, open combat log isn't that the stats themselves are open. I consider myself pretty good. What I object to is turning my one opportunity at the end of the day to have a little fun turned into more work. When guilds and groups start demanding x stats because that's what the "A" list raiders are doing, then suddenly I have to Spend my time grinding mobs to get my stats where someone who is not me wants them to be, regardless of what is actually needed to accomplish the raid/heroic/fp/boss/whatever. I get that wiping because someone made a dumb mistake is frustrating. I've seen great players make a stupid mistake and get their group wiped. Crap happens. We're playing a game to have fun, and what you guys want just simply kills the fun for myself and lot's of people like me.

[JediMasterShake]

There's so much needless venom in this thread.

 

You are playing a PvE progression MMO: this means that encounters are tuned, literally, for specific number of DPS per player in the raid... do people not understand this? This is how these games are designed!!!

 

Guild need to know this information. People are upset because they are often used to scrutinize other players, but the truth is, if you are a good player, you'll never complain about dps meters.

 

(This is not to say a poor or weaker player has no place in the game - but these types of MMO are about knowledge of gear, properly preparing, and execution. And this shows up in DPS meters.)

[Chosenxeno]

I agree games are for many people. How-ever, what I see is this;

 

Your guild demands you do x amount of dps on this boss encounter. If you all do that, you guarantee the outcome, i.e.: a win.

 

It's really not worth playing if you are guaranteed the win every time now is it? Basically you have every boss on farm and you loot easy gear.

 

Where exactly is the game? The only challenge is for your guild to ensure it has enough cookie-cutter spec'd players to do the dps and face-roll the rotations.

 

 

Regardless of Parsers or not if the fight doesn't get easier than how do you gauge progress? Why would I wanna spend hours wiping on the 1st boss every week if the goal is to clear the instance?

 

Why do people act as if they MUST join guilds that require them to be a certain spec?

 

Using any Addon is optional since you have the option to not playing in Guilds that require you to have them.

 

Having any Addon is optional since it's your computer.

[Eldren]

I have no issues with combat logs or even damage meters. I have an issue when information that has no place in the hands of other players gets there.

 

Combat logs for our own personal use? Sure, as long as they can't be copy/pasted into chat clients, or otherwise communicated to other players. It's none of their business.

 

This, after all, should be everything the "we want combat logs and damage meters!" crowd wants. They keep saying they want to see the information "for their own improvement", so they should have no problems at all with being unable to link it or paste it into the chat client so they can either brag or just shove someone else out of their groups.

[Aryzyra]

Any type of log that we get will more than likely be built into the UI and will just show your stats..

 

That's the premise of this thread at least. We'll see what they actually do.

 

Would be hilarious if they made a meter and it just showed dps though. How utterly missing the point would that be.

[Setanian]

Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People?

 

Because it's a challenge?

 

 

This is also for DragonAgeOrigins too. Explain your logic for not wanting a game that is supposed to be Massive to not be more inclusive. That is ultimately what you are asking isn't it? Fine EQ didn't have this but is it truly as "Massive" as it could be? More People = more Massive and i'm pretty sure the games that do allow Parsers have more Subs/people.

 

It's a lot, a lot bigger than this.

 

It is more inclusive because it includes all the people, dare I say care bears who cannot play for themselves, they need add-ons to do it for them, and it includes all the wannabe raiders who are using tools to help them guarantee a win and are the same spec, with the same rotations.

 

That is not playing, that is as close to macro'ing a raid/win as you get without actually automating it.

[Jett-Rinn]

That's the premise of this thread at least. We'll see what they actually do.

 

Would be hilarious if they made a meter and it just showed dps though. How utterly missing the point would that be.

 

Naaaa Zoller is a big time Raider min/maxer I'm pretty sure you will get all the relative info.....just it will only be your relative info.

[guided_by_voices]

Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People?

 

Because it's a challenge?

 

 

 

 

It's a lot, a lot bigger than this.

 

It is more inclusive because it includes all the people, dare I say care bears who cannot play for themselves, they need add-ons to do it for them, and it includes all the wannabe raiders who are using tools to help them guarantee a win and are the same spec, with the same rotations.

 

That is not playing, that is as close to macro'ing a raid/win as you get without actually automating it.

 

I support this post

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I have no issues with combat logs or even damage meters. I have an issue when information that has no place in the hands of other players gets there.

 

Combat logs for our own personal use? Sure, as long as they can't be copy/pasted into chat clients, or otherwise communicated to other players. It's none of their business.

 

This, after all, should be everything the "we want combat logs and damage meters!" crowd wants. They keep saying they want to see the information "for their own improvement", so they should have no problems at all with being unable to link it or paste it into the chat client so they can either brag or just shove someone else out of their groups.

 

Exactly my DPS is on my computer went through my PC from paying the SUB that I paid with MY money buying the game. If you want know YOUR DPS now you got it. But it's none of your business to KNOW MINE. Maybe Pokemon with recount is more your style?

[AlpsStranger]

That's all been pretty much covered there isn't going to be open addons like in Wow it will be Bioware approved...which means very limited. Bioware is also concerned about security so the add ons that will be available will probably only be downloadable from Bioware.

 

Any type of log that we get will more than likely be built into the UI and will just show your stats..

 

Man, this entire game is a nightmare for me. I'm really regretting the $60 I spent. I'm sorry, but if I play at this point I'm basically sending the message that I'm human filth and Bioware can do everything possible to marginalize me and I'll still give them money.

 

They've clearly filed me under 'acceptable losses' at this point. Well, the generous part of my personality genuinely hopes they're correct in that assessment. Unless they change course they won't be seeing me after my trial month is up.

 

That's the third post too many and hopefully my final one at long last.

 

On my way out I'd like to take one last chance to plug my token constructive thread.

Edited January 13, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Jett-Rinn]

Another "in Everquest" guy. You know MMOs have changed a lot in the last decade right? Why does everything need to be so cumbersome and Grueling for you People?

 

Because it's a challenge?

 

 

 

 

It's a lot, a lot bigger than this.

 

It is more inclusive because it includes all the people, dare I say care bears who cannot play for themselves, they need add-ons to do it for them, and it includes all the wannabe raiders who are using tools to help them guarantee a win and are the same spec, with the same rotations.

 

That is not playing, that is as close to macro'ing a raid/win as you get without actually automating it.

 

Yeah I had a buddy of mine back at the end of TBC he had all these add-ons and macros all his spell rotations set up tones for when he was in the fire when the Boss would enrage when his mana dropped below a certain percent.

 

He would do his homework while raiding never hardly looked at the screen.. when you get to that point you are a bot not a gamer.

[Hy_C]

My disagreement with a full, open combat log isn't that the stats themselves are open. I consider myself pretty good. What I object to is turning my one opportunity at the end of the day to have a little fun turned into more work. When guilds and groups start demanding x stats because that's what the "A" list raiders are doing, then suddenly I have to Spend my time grinding mobs to get my stats where someone who is not me wants them to be, regardless of what is actually needed to accomplish the raid/heroic/fp/boss/whatever. I get that wiping because someone made a dumb mistake is frustrating. I've seen great players make a stupid mistake and get their group wiped. Crap happens. We're playing a game to have fun, and what you guys want just simply kills the fun for myself and lot's of people like me.

 

You see what I bolded and underlined. Now remember that you mentioned "A list raiders" and how what they do dictates what others want from you. Now also remember that those "A list raiders" are more than likely also downing raid/heroic/fp/boss/whatever. Now what does a public meter do? Oh yes it helps us to compare and see our work and see who is slacking. Now if someone isn't puling their weight in a game were the current raid tiers require top notch dps, what kind of result will we get? A wiped raid! Now if we keep wiping because someone isn't pulling their weight, what kind of feelings will you have? I'll let you figure that one out but here's a hint, it isn't fun. In the end you are killing what's fun for myself and lot's of people like me.

[RamataKahn]

It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

 

 

That's how I interpret the quote, anyway.

 

(EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized)

 

And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason.

 

This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster.

 

lol it's obvious that combat logs will not be just for the player only, stop kidding yourself.

Edited January 13, 2012 by RamataKahn

[mcfabulous]

Good no recount for group. And you know personal DPS. Now everyone wins. No loud mouth in raid shouting everyone's number's and if you ask me mine. I'll lie.

 

If someone started calling out my dps in chat, regardless of how good or bad, I'd just drop the group.