You blew it BioWare

[Samsca]

BTW there is a specific reason for "pvp stats" its soo PVE raiders dont do exactly what your complaining about.

 

I don't think so. Today PvP stats are added to force people to grind PvP to have a chance in PvP against people who have done the grind. Its the same reason COD and BF3 force you to play to unlock abilities. Its just padding. It doesn't add anything desirable to the game.

 

The notion that its for anything else just indicates designers are bad. You could easilly design a game where PvE raiders acquired stats that wouldn't make them two-shot people in PvP if you wanted to.

 

Resilience was added due to an unusual scenario which has long since past and is unlikely to be found again. That scenario was one of intensely tiered gameplay. If I wanted Tier 3 in original WoW I would have had to have clear the tier 2 dungeons, which would require gear that I would have had to get in Tier 1. A character in tier 2 or 3 (running around two shotting people etc) therefore likely had months, if not years, of playing time over a guy in level 60 greens or blues. The ability to catch up was incredibly limited.

 

Today this isn't the case. Start a new character after ICC was released in Wrath? You didn't have to grind Naxx or Ulduar. Between crafting, BOE drops and casual epics you could gear up a character far better than these raids would. I don't know what Bioware is going to do with end game PvE, but it seems highly unlikely they shall go the old WoW route and shall instead go the new WoW route.

 

The end result is that people at the cutting edge of raiding shall have an advantage, but it shall be far smaller than the gulf which made resilience necessary.

[Speno]

This is just about a gap in mmo generations..pre wow dudes who used to camp mobs for days..and wow dudes who were handed thier welfare epics with little to no work.. I turned 50 on 8th of jan valor rank 54 in 3 days thourgh the combonation of tokens and bag drop I have pvp gear except for 3 items pants,focus and earpiece is what im missing..I play 3 to 4 hours a night..it is stupid easy to get pvp gear in this game

 

This takes the cake. Almost the as me way for me although im in full pvp gear. When kids were rolling me on my way to 50 I wasnt QQing i got to 50 and started grinding valor ranks. Now I return the favor.

[EternalFinality]

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

Edited January 12, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Wiggletphyre]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

tl;dr

 

But I guess its says: QQ I'm a PvE Hero and i want to own in PvP with my awesome PvE gears QQ remove expertise QQ

 

/mandatory if you don't I quit comment

[EternalFinality]

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

Edited January 12, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Artlu]

As a fresh 50 I know going in that I'm gonna have to take my licks until I get geared up. I did have another option though......Not to PvP.

[AstralProjection]

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Actually the situation is quite the opposite. What's started this PVP Stat thing in the MMO community is Raiders whining about PVPers getting comparable gear from grinding PVP instead of learning Raid mechanics - As if an overgrown instance with extra party members and gigantic mobs makes it remotely close to as difficult as playing against a talented human.

 

Don't blame the PVPers for whining and creating the PVP stat - we don't care, and many of us have little interest in raiding, operations, whatever you want to call them, short of seeing the content in game.

 

Good PVPers use just as many skills as good raiders, and know their classes just as well.

[EternalFinality]

Actually the situation is quite the opposite. What's started this PVP Stat thing in the MMO community is Raiders whining about PVPers getting comparable gear from grinding PVP instead of learning Raid mechanics - As if an overgrown instance with extra party members and gigantic mobs makes it remotely close to as difficult as playing against a talented human.

 

Don't blame the PVPers for whining and creating the PVP stat - we don't care, and many of us have little interest in raiding, operations, whatever you want to call them, short of seeing the content in game.

 

That's not true, as I played WoW when the stat first surfaced. It was ALL PvPers crying about raid geared people in their battlegrounds.

 

What you're saying doesn't make sense. PvP gear in WoW at the time of its introduction was FAR HARDER TO OBTAIN than Raid gear. How could it have been raiders complaining?

[harkonnen]

There is only 1 solution...naked warzones with training weapons. Patch ASAP, no need to thank me for this.

 

I laughed

[Tirithius]

PvP is a fun little side gameplay much like space combat. The game doesn't revolve around it.

 

I totally agree. Once the hardcore pvp crowd gets frustrated and moves on to another game things will get better around here. In the meantime I am gradually leveling a few different classes. I will have a few lvl 50 chars ready to go once the hardcore crowd leaves.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Tirithius

[ZeusThunder]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance. Having PVP stats discourages new players from ever PVPing because no one enjoys getting destroyed over and over. The 50 bracket does not solve this whatsoever since you already have people decked out in PVP gear who will roll a new 50.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

How can BW possibly fix the mess they created going forward? I have no idea. They could start by scrapping pvp stats but that would mean BW would have to admit they were wrong and I don't see that happening.

 

Flame all you like, but I play this game and read the boards from time to time. I come across more people who agree with me on this one than those who don't.

 

I sort of agree with your point. What I'd really like to see is just ONE WZ where every player entering gets the same exact stats (for their class, obviously) regardless of the gear they are wearing.

This would be something different and fun, and wouldn't detract from all the hard work the people with "good" gear have done.

[AstralProjection]

That's not true, as I played WoW when the stat first surfaced. It was ALL PvPers crying about raid geared people in their battlegrounds.

 

What you're saying doesn't make sense. PvP gear in WoW at the time of its introduction was FAR HARDER TO OBTAIN than Raid gear. How could it have been raiders complaining?

 

Because the claim was that you don't have to win to get PVP gear, just grind it out.

 

People wanted to brag that they got the server first kill of damage-bot-with-enrage-timer-#3, and thought that entitled them to better equipment than people who prefer to fight actual intelligence, instead of artificial. Instead they created different equipment, to try to make both groups happy.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AstralProjection

[Daraco]

I don't really care about the stats there fine with me but has anyone considered

removing the PVP stat from PVP gear, and add a Raid Stat to Raid gear?

 

Makes PvP with ANY gear work but makes raid gear still require you to run raids and learn fights for gear that is still geared to raids.

 

Though this model will still need some kind of reward for PvP players or otherwise why PvP constantly? Even game like CoD or Battlefield add some sort of perks your working to attain

[harkonnen]

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Um .... I'm taking a wild gues here...looking into the crystal ball...um, it says you don't pvp

[EternalFinality]

Um .... I'm taking a wild gues here...looking into the crystal ball...um, it says you don't pvp

 

You'd be wrong. I'm one of those "rare" players who does both PvP and PvE.

[wizzlestick]

This is a rant but everything I am about to share with you all is absolutely true.

 

PVP stats are the DUMBEST thing created ever in a MMO. The idea is to have balance.

 

PVP is supposed to be about skill. If you are skillful you don't need pvp stats or any gear advantage period. I do not resent people who have this gear whatsoever however I do believe said gear is bad for the game.

 

I think the PVP stat is excellent. Even in a game like Battlefield, which is both PVP and Skill based there are unlocks that give a veteran player advantages over a noob. It does not mean they are invincible, just like here.

 

The veteran also has advantages with the game mechanics and environment layouts. PVP is not supposed to be "fair" in the sense of one team is dueling another team. This is war. Unfair things happen in war.

 

Whoever fights "fair" is almost certain to lose.

 

On a side note, this type of mentality will ALWAYS find some reason why things are not fair.

[ZeusThunder]

That's not true, as I played WoW when the stat first surfaced. It was ALL PvPers crying about raid geared people in their battlegrounds.

 

What you're saying doesn't make sense. PvP gear in WoW at the time of its introduction was FAR HARDER TO OBTAIN than Raid gear. How could it have been raiders complaining?

 

Coming from a always server first and occassional world first PvE guild in Vanilla and TBC WoW I can attest that the above is true. On my warlock I just facerolled over everything with my full raiding set before there was a PvP stat. Of course this was fun for me, but it was pretty stupid that 1 Warlock could easily hold a point against 8 or so other people.

We had a Warrior in our guild doing the same thing I was, and it basically felt like he was un-killable in warzones.

[Icecrypt]

you forgot how empire classes outdo republic classes on almost every front, look around for some of the other threads for that little bit of info.

 

ps. i play empire

 

thats a load of rubbish.

[Modecrypt]

I don't want to have to PVE in order to PVP, therefore I support the Expertise stat by default unless it is replaced with gear that has equal stats to PVE gear.

[Leiloni]

I really don't see the issue with allowing PvE to PvP as is. It's their character and it's who their character is...all the experience and gear they have obtained throughout the game. Why can't they decide to PvP when they wish? PvE is "the" game. PvP is a fun little side gameplay much like space combat. The game doesn't revolve around it. MMOs rarely do unless it's designed FOR PvP such as DAoC and WAR.

 

 

PvE is not "the" game. Endgame raiding is a small part of the game and the majority of the playerbase is not going to be spending a ton of time doing it because most MMO players don't have the time to commit to it. PvP is not a fun side game, either. For many players it is the reason they play MMO's similar to people like you that play MMO's to raid. Different but equal playstyles.

 

As for not being able to PvE to get PvP gear, would you like it if I could PvP to get the best endgame raiding gear? No, I think not. It makes no sense. Would you like it if gear didn't matter in raiding and any new level 50 toon could out dps you as long as they knew their character? You'd probably qq to no end about fairness. You have to work at a particular task to be the best at it and get proper rewards for doing so. Gear are these rewards.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Leiloni

[EternalFinality]

I don't want to have to PVE in order to PVP, therefore I support the Expertise stat by default unless it is replaced with gear that has equal stats to PVE gear.

 

That is the obvious solution, but PvPers still cry. They don't want to be equal, they want to be BETTER!

Edited January 12, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Leiloni]

That is the obvious solution, but PvPers still cry. They don't want to be equal, they want to be BETTER!

 

You mean PvEers? This post is about PvEers crying that they need to wear PvP gear to PvP. PvPers in this thread aren't complaining.

 

As for Modecrypt's suggestion, I disagree. If they got rid of Expertise and PvP gear were identical to PvE gear, then people could and would do raids and operations and then jump into casual PvP and be on equal footing with everyone who had worked their butt off. Conversely, you could PvP a ton, lose every match even and be horrible, and earn gear that was equal to the best raid gear available. All the raiders who worked their tails off learning and beating encounter and then repeating it over and over hoping for a drop, would QQ to no end that you jumped into your first raid with better gear.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Leiloni

[Klajo]

For absolute equality BW would have to make gear have no effect on Warzones at all.

 

When you load in, you have 'x' amount of all your stats, and so does everyone else adjusted of course for what class you are.

 

No variances whatsoever

 

Then use your commendations for gear that you can use in other parts of the game.

The only thing your gear would do for you in a Warzone would be alter your appearance.

 

Then the only thing determining your success in PvP is your skill.

 

Of course, out of Warzones, that would be a different story.

[Leiloni]

For absolute equality BW would have to make gear have no effect on Warzones at all.

 

When you load in, you have 'x' amount of all your stats, and so does everyone else adjusted of course for what class you are.

 

No variances whatsoever

 

Then use your commendations for gear that you can use in other parts of the game.

The only thing your gear would do for you in a Warzone would be alter your appearance.

 

Then the only thing determining your success in PvP is your skill.

 

Of course, out of Warzones, that would be a different story.

 

Then make gear have no effect on PvE, either. The only thing that should effect your success is your skill. In fact, we should just get rid of stats and gear entirely.

 

See how dumb that sounds?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Leiloni

[warkat]

Another casual who wants free PvE / PvP epics in the mailbox for paying a monthly sub...thank god the free month is almost up will get rid of a bunch of these guys.