Denying Jedi Knight Sentinels are broken Issue #1

[Mavick]

And who said anything about advantage?

what we have is disadvantage. The other classes can do everything we can, which is damage, while they can also push, cc, heal, guard, name it?

 

And you say Blizzard like they were they know everything, well, first news to you. this is SWTOR! and the sentinel in THIS game CANT do anything besides damage, so explain to me how this class can be of any use, if all the other classes can do the same damage while also doing other stuffs?

 

I didn't, you did. You're the one saying "OMG WE SHOULD DO MORE DPS BECAUSE WE ARE PURE DPS". That's called having an advantage. I referenced Blizzard, not stating that TOR should be like WoW, but simply to say that EVEN THEY realized this shouldn't be the case.

 

Comprehension is hard, yo.

[Ninja_Jedl]

Look, no one that has any intelligence is saying that the class is completely broken. The problem remains that, while the class is usable and does have a fairly good system, it is severely disadvantaged in PvP. I don't care if you ranked in the top 3 a billion times. Great, you're good at PvP (or lying) and can scrape up a decent score. But the majority of the players, including the ones who know what they're doing, find it ridiculously harder than other classes simply to get somewhere in the middle of that oh-so-glorious leader board.

 

This is mostly because of a lack of utility. Yes, we have a large amount of defensive buffs. Yes, we do have a handful of impairing moves such as Leg Slash, Force Stasis, etc. But the other classes, namely the imperial ones, have an arsenal. I watched helplessly as a operative went through not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR stuns and continued to bleed me dry.

 

All we have is force stasis and perhaps pacify to combat this, and thats hardly a shield. So strip off this little facade of yours and accept that there are problems with the class, which is to be expected since we are still on the same version as the game was when it launched.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Ninja_Jedl

[Csdabest]

I didn't, you did. You're the one saying "OMG WE SHOULD DO MORE DPS BECAUSE WE ARE PURE DPS". That's called having an advantage. I referenced Blizzard, not stating that TOR should be like WoW, but simply to say that EVEN THEY realized this shouldn't be the case.

 

Comprehension is hard, yo.

 

No thats called ballencing things out. C&C. Generals. GLA forces was able to mass produce weak tanks militia to overwhelm their opponents. USA had expensive durabile powerful Tanks and armorments to compensate for the high cost.

 

Pure DPS class. With mid armor

 

Other classes. DPS that can do just as much damage. Have heavier armor. And Defensive CDs. Better CC. More stuns and knock backs.

 

Who really has the adavantage now. How would Sentinels getting a boost in their offhand saber for increase damage output. THAT WOULDNT BE MUCH. cuz its all depending on the mainhand lightsaber. Throw off the balance of the game. Will other classes still be able to perform amazing damage. Yes. Will other classes still be able to tank. Yes. Will other classes still be able to have their crowd control work, and be able to stun and knock back. Yes yes and yes.

[Apocalypse-]

No thats called ballencing things out. C&C. Generals. GLA forces was able to mass produce weak tanks militia to overwhelm their opponents. USA had expensive durabile powerful Tanks and armorments to compensate for the high cost.

 

Pure DPS class. With mid armor

 

Other classes. DPS that can do just as much damage. Have heavier armor. And Defensive CDs...

Ima let you finish, but Sentinels have the best defensive cooldowns of anyone not traited full tank.

 

Also, every other class can have their damage output interrupted by something other than true CC. We're immune to interrupts on our main damage rotation AND can do it on the move. You force a sage, commando, or gunslinger to keep moving and they can't compete with our damage. Not even close. Additionally, none of those classes can deliver the utility we provide without taking a significant loss to damage output while providing it.

 

Sentinels are hard to play, the devs acknowledge this. That is not a problem to either them or many sentinels that are completely capable of dominating on this "broken" class. If anything, sentinels are bordering on overpowered more than underpowered. Being hard to play just causes only 10-15% (possibly less) of sentinels to actually see the class at its full potential. The only actual problem for sentinels is the ability rubberbanding felt by every. single. class.

 

Now, in PvE, there's a legitimate complaint for sentinels, but it's the same exact complaint that scoundrels, vanguards, guardians, and shadows have. Boss mechanics are excessively anti-melee without a similar number of anti-ranged mechanics. This complaint is not valid in PvP however.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[Aznryoga]

you complain about the lack of defensive cds. we have rebuke, saber ward, guarded by the force, awe, pacify, transcendence, and force stasis. Hell, I complain that we have too freaking many defensive cds to keep track of (at least while saber ward takes like 3+ button press to activate).

 

Oh, AND we have force camouflage.

Furthermore, you only talk about Watchmen and Combat, completely neglecting Focus spec for pvp. Which leads me to believe that while you believe you understand the class, you really still have much to learn.

 

You say that combat is inferior to watchmen because of the lack of offhand damage, while that may be true to an extent. I believe the reason combat falls behind in pve is because of the animation stutters/lags making it extremely hard to keep up your rotation/priority system (because ataru form proc and precision strike needs to be taken full advantage for combat to do competitive dps). And in pvp, the same stutter/lag cause the roots in combat to be completely ineffective.

 

Then what are you talking about the forms. Yes juuyo has 10% dmg increase, but ataru form gives you the ataru strikes which gives you extra scaling off power. Furthermore the 3% accuracy means at some point that is 3 less percent you have to spend on accuracy and put into your dps instead. And without a combat log or extensive testing/math (which by all means looks like you haven't done) one can't tell who scales better.

 

Lastly, I will concede that zen in ataru form seems to be a little more underwhelming compared to the other 2 forms'.

 

However, your last point is a complaint that sentinel class isn't balanced within itself. Yes, in a perfect world all trees and all specs would be balanced. You're talking as if other classes don't have their own tree that isn't performing up to par. You're asking a particular spec to be fixed, and I do believe that there are more important class issues that takes precedent. I guess in conclusion, if Bioware finds combat to be behind indps/utility/whatever, and meanwhile they're trying to fix it, go spec watchmen or focus.

[ProfessorWalsh]

No he doesn't, and neither do you honestly.

 

Yes he does Mavick. You are the person who doesn't know what they are talking about here. You cannot separate your experience with a pre-made from the CSL of the player base. BioWare has publicly stated that the class is too "gameplay intensive" as it is currently.

 

Just give it up.

 

There are problems with the class.

[Anelyn]

Look, no one that has any intelligence is saying that the class is completely broken. The problem remains that, while the class is usable and does have a fairly good system, it is severely disadvantaged in PvP. I don't care if you ranked in the top 3 a billion times. Great, you're good at PvP (or lying) and can scrape up a decent score. But the majority of the players, including the ones who know what they're doing, find it ridiculously harder than other classes simply to get somewhere in the middle of that oh-so-glorious leader board.

 

This is mostly because of a lack of utility. Yes, we have a large amount of defensive buffs. Yes, we do have a handful of impairing moves such as Leg Slash, Force Stasis, etc. But the other classes, namely the imperial ones, have an arsenal. I watched helplessly as a operative went through not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR stuns and continued to bleed me dry.

 

All we have is force stasis and perhaps pacify to combat this, and thats hardly a shield. So strip off this little facade of yours and accept that there are problems with the class, which is to be expected since we are still on the same version as the game was when it launched.

 

Am sorry but you can't be chain stunned by an operative / scoundrel. Best they can do is to tie their 4s stun into flash bang then resolve bar is full. If they open with hidden strike w/e name which knocks you down, your resolve bar is filled 100% and won't diminish for about 15s.

[JamieKirby]

I hope you know that the jedi guardian is just as gimped as sentinel is right?

 

Bioware have said that its a jedi knight issue with survivability, which they said is being worked on.

[Mavick]

Yes he does Mavick. You are the person who doesn't know what they are talking about here. You cannot separate your experience with a pre-made from the CSL of the player base. BioWare has publicly stated that the class is too "gameplay intensive" as it is currently.

 

Just give it up.

 

There are problems with the class.

 

I can't help it that I have friends that want to play with me, and you don't, or that I know what I'm doing, and you don't.

[Apocalypse-]

Yes he does Mavick. You are the person who doesn't know what they are talking about here. You cannot separate your experience with a pre-made from the CSL of the player base. BioWare has publicly stated that the class is too "gameplay intensive" as it is currently.

 

Just give it up.

 

There are problems with the class.

 

...For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class....

 

Where in there do they say the class is "too" gameplay intensive? I see "very", but I don't see where they say they don't like that. Quality of Life and usability improvements are standard fare changes, not targeted buffs. That last part about not "compromising the unique aspects of the class" pretty much means they're leaving it gameplay intensive, as it should be. The class is incredibly fun as is, buffing it is just going to overpower it and cause it to lose the fun aspect of it. Want simple? Play a mercenary or commando.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I can't help it that I have friends that want to play with me, and you don't, or that I know what I'm doing, and you don't.

 

Nice straw man.

 

I know what I am doing. You don't. I know what I am doing because I can make top three in Warzones but then I can still understand the flaws in the class. You can't do that. You are basically self-centered and not looking at the greater game.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Where in there do they say the class is "too" gameplay intensive? I see "very", but I don't see where they say they don't like that. Quality of Life and usability improvements are standard fare changes, not targeted buffs. That last part about not "compromising the unique aspects of the class" pretty much means they're leaving it gameplay intensive, as it should be. The class is incredibly fun as is, buffing it is just going to overpower it and cause it to lose the fun aspect of it. Want simple? Play a mercenary or commando.

 

The quality of life and usability are tantamount to removing some of the complexity of the class. The complexity of the class is what is making it hard to use. The admitted that it was an issue. You can keep the class gameplay intensive without it remaining as gameplay intensive (read overly complex) as it is now.

[Apocalypse-]

The quality of life and usability are tantamount to removing some of the complexity of the class. The complexity of the class is what is making it hard to use. The admitted that it was an issue. You can keep the class gameplay intensive without it remaining as gameplay intensive (read overly complex) as it is now.

 

If that's how you want to read it, go ahead. It remains that sentinels were designed to require and will continue to require a higher level of play than the other classes.

[phswtor]

 

How fair would it be if Maurder and Sentinels. Both duel weilding weapon classes. With the Maurader having a 500(Pri) and a 350(Sec) for damage output while the Sent which also duel weilds does a 500(pri) and a 150(sec) for damage output. Where is the balance in that? There is none. It doesnt take a rocket science to show that there is a problem there. Now lets keep the same out put for damage and Say that Maurader is a gunslinger or a duel weilding bounty(forgot the name of it) But also does damage from 30m away. Once again a even further imbalance issue. In every game I played. Melee always have done more damage than ranged. Why do people who play MMO and enjoy their classes seem to think that Range should do more than Melee. Thats beyond me.

 

.

 

Exactly!!!

 

The only exception is ops/scounds but they are going to get nerfed big time.

 

 

 

This game amazes me as it is the first non-asian MMO I have played where they use some incompetent formula of having ranged classes not only doing more damage but also more ON DEMAND burst over melee. Only reason asian mmos have it is because they always have at least 1 dragonball z fan on the dev team, which explains itself. Even in the case of the asian mmo, it gets fixed and either balanced or reversed to meet more of a western style mmo formula in terms of class balance.

 

 

Only real working formula in ANY successful MMO=

 

A. Ranged dps is squishy, does more overall DPS, and any burst is related to RNG and stacking debuffs

 

B. Melee dps is in the middle in terms of survivability, does the MOST burst and itis ON DEMAND, based on CDs, with their non burst dps being based on either attack speed or DoTs

 

 

 

some of the most apparent issues with knight/warriors all-together.

 

Jugg/Guard = Less def cooldowns than Sent/Mara, and only gets more from pretty deep in only 1 talent tree. Even as dps spec, this AC should have MORE def cooldowns than Sent/Mara

 

 

Marauder/Sent= Watchmen on paper and in game is more of a high dps/ low-mediocre burst. Since this is the most played spec in pvp and most successful, right there should be a red flag, because without even considering what I said in A and B above, this makes it DOUBLE fold. Combat spec is our burst spec, it is just so UNPOLISHED and incomplete it is ridiculous. If it was up to me, I would add to some of the talents in combat. First of all one that makes Ravage/Masterstrike able to be performed on the move. I would also add that Blade rush should either do more on hit damage (maybe trigger 2 ataru form strike not just 1)

Edited January 15, 2012 by phswtor

[Talonvore]

Our offhand doesn't do the same damage as our main hand because that would put us so far ahead of everyone. They balanced so everyone does the same damage, whether our rotation is harder or not.

 

If you wanted both to do the same damage, they would nerf main hand to compensate for it. Also our offhand has a lower hit chance so personally i wouldn't want to see that happen, unless they changed that as well

 

 

Its people like this that make the forums about as intelligent as a pile of crap. People dont actually read and COMPREHEND what they read. They just start blathering contradicotry statements.

 

He NEVER said that offhand should do 100% of main hand damage. What he DID say was that offhand damage was so low that he felt it really imbalanced their damage output. He even compared the offhand damage of Gunslingers to use as an example saying that their offhand damage, while not the same as their main hand damage, wasnt as crappy as the Seintinel's.

 

Please people read and COMPREHEND before you reply. Thanks.

[Mavick]

I did read and comprehend it. He was trying to say that offhand damage was doing 30% of mainhand with the combat talent, with "average gear". I was telling him he was full of ****. Which he is. As well as ProfessorFriendless.

[Elear]

Too bad people don't realize that it's better to keep offhand damage crap.

 

If offhand damage gets increased, overall damage gets decreased.

 

Skills consisting of few strikes take offand damage directly, but offhand also has chance to miss. So if more damage would be shifted into offhand, you would have to stack accuracy just to get where you were.

 

Other skills take offhand damage purely as bonus power. So we not only get ability to mod our offhand stact stick, but also get second dip from it.

 

 

I'm all in for buffs, but once you see some more world and gear, you realize that class is quite decent. More complicated than any other, but by no means broken.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Elear

[ProfessorWalsh]

I did read and comprehend it. He was trying to say that offhand damage was doing 30% of mainhand with the combat talent, with "average gear". I was telling him he was full of ****. Which he is. As well as ProfessorFriendless.

 

Hardly friendless by any stretch. I simply have the wisdom to look beyond my own situation and grasp the whole picture. It is a capability that comes with maturity.

[Mavick]

We'll fight fire with fire then.

[MBirkhofer]

OP knows what he is talking about it.

I am telling the same thing here at forums, but there is just too many players here that dont realize that we can ONLY PLAY AS DPS, so our dps should be higher than other classes.

 

If you are a good player, but keep seeing other classes do the same damage as you do, but also guard and heal by A LOT, while you can't do that, than there is something wrong with the class.

 

And that is what i keep seeing. But ofc, we'll be flamed to death.

 

Disaggree. I play many games, and that thinking is a trap. Well, in this game design anyway. As long as you have the trinity, and raid timers. it just can't work that way. As, if we DID do more dps, then THEY would be useless, as everyone min-max's the highest dps.

A more freeform raiding design that allowed scaling by # of attendance, and didnt have enrages, you can do that.

 

so here, you are right in there is a problem. we are the low end. Our dps may or may not even BE on par. And frankly, in the MANY MANY melee unfriendly pve fights, its cearly NOT on par. And the same can be said in pvp, with many anti melee moves, such as all the roots, and knockbacks. but even in a free-for-all, I'm not so sure we scale at the same rate as some others.

We clearly do not scale with burst as well as others do in pvp. The need to build focus, and DW itself. We can not front end 3k, 4k hits in 2s like others. (even with full focus)

 

Medal system is a problem. Hybrids, not only are more powerfull innately. but since you get medals for doing those things, in each catagory. they ALSO get more medals, and thusly gain more valor and gear FASTER. Easliy 50-100% faster.

 

 

 

There are a great many things I would like to see changed.

Reduce the dependance on defensive cooldowns. we are absolute trash with them down. That is terrible design. The cooldowns should give us an advantage. not bring us from unplayable to base line. If you are popping guarded by the force in EVERY fight, something is wrong with the design. And unless you have a pocket healer, and are over-geared, you probably are, aren't you?

Fixing resolve will of course go a long way. We are the single most hurt by its current design. we die before it works. and roots/slows hurt us the most as well.

Dispatch. sick of using dispatch vs pvp targets and having them not die. It needs to hit harder. Two problems here. 1. it doesn't gain anything from damage talents. no crit, no surge, etc. So either give it a baseline +50% surge/crit chance, make it 100% armor pen. And possibly add a +damage based on focus effect, (like execute)

Edited January 16, 2012 by MBirkhofer

[Poe_]

... You're not going to roll a stealthless (meaning, out of combat, pick your fight stealth) class and just solo dominate everyone you play. It hasn't been that way in any worthwhile game to date, and never will be. And if you're complaining about our damage, you're just bad, period. Walsh, as usual, gets points for the latter.

This.

 

It's always the same, from Barrens to Meridian, Fury vs. Arms to Rogue MMs and Warrs vs. Pyrodom squirrelers, the whiners and frighters want an IWIN button, and when there isn't one, they blame their environment instead of working to overcome it, get better in it.

 

I think that early on in this game, the lack of macros to string long spammable strings of abilities is making alot of people frustrated. As fun, and innovative, as macros let a game be, the lack thereof is separating the kiddies from the adults, the baddies from the real competition. I welcome it.

[Poe_]

that thinking is a trap.

 

akbarlol! /10 chars

[Mavick]

This.

 

It's always the same, from Barrens to Meridian, Fury vs. Arms to Rogue MMs and Warrs vs. Pyrodom squirrelers, the whiners and frighters want an IWIN button, and when there isn't one, they blame their environment instead of working to overcome it, get better in it.

 

I think that early on in this game, the lack of macros to string long spammable strings of abilities is making alot of people frustrated. As fun, and innovative, as macros let a game be, the lack thereof is separating the kiddies from the adults, the baddies from the real competition. I welcome it.

 

That's what is called actually "having the wisdom to look beyond your own situation" in case, well, since we all know you have no idea what you're talking about.

[JerokTalram]

The problem with most melee classes in this game seems to be the focus. First you hve to get close, then you have to build up your focus, then use an ability. By the time that happens at least in pvp you are already very hurt. The other classes don't have to do that. they have all the nice damage right from the get go and almost never run out of power. I have yet to run out of force with my sage in pvp or pve flashpoints.

 

That's not a much of a deal for focus spec as you can gain 6 focus from a Zealous Strike. There are times when you run out of focus and Zealous Strike is on CD and you have to spam your basic for a few hits. If you are lucky and have built up 30 centereds, you can pop zen and spam strike which for a Focus spec will actually hit 2 opponents at once.

Edited January 16, 2012 by JerokTalram

[JerokTalram]

The base damage of the off hand dual weilding is 30% of main hand

Put 3 points in Off Hand Mastery and its 66% of main hand.

 

The bigger problem which everyone seems to miss is

The melee accuracy of the Off hand is 50% base

The power Accuracy of the Off hand is 60% base

 

So your attack with your off hand unless you put points into accuracy is only going to hit 50% of the time. Unless its a power then it hits 60% of the time.

 

This is more of a problem then the damage percentage.

 

Umm Sentinel doesn't have Off Hand Mastery that I can find.