Why the state of PvP mitigation is a good thing

[broaf]

I dont have any major issues with mitigation atm. Im running a variation of the parakeet build with about 8% expertise with most of the supercommando set, 19.5k hp(with rakata stim).

The ONLY time i feel squishy is against a decently geared imp agent, but our bubble and hp cd evens things out nicely.

 

My only real 'complaint' is the base itemization of the supercommando set. Remodding fixes that for now.

 

Im looking forward to the new 50 bracket - its hard to theorycraft pvp stats when half of your opponents dont have the abilities that really give us trouble.

[BlazingShadow]

As a shieldtech I was rather disappointed when I found out that our shields and defense rating apply only to melee/ranged attacks. I can understand that we may be a little "too" effective in PVP, but that doesn't change the fact that we see an unequal return in our investment (skill pts and gear) than a DPS class.

 

Do you know what it feels like to get pummeled by a sorc's DoTs and lightning spam from afar and being able to do nothing about it but run because we haven't ANY defense to mitigate the damn DoTs or that lightning because they're not "Melee or Ranged"? Screw jetting over to 'em, they'll just overload you. Grapple? They'll run away. And of course they have a damn bubble that absorbs ALL DAMAGE for a bit.

 

And ops/scoundrels of course. My god. My GOD we can do nothing except pop our bubble and try to last it, but if we dont have it, theyre gonna pewpewstabbystab us to death. Why? because their pewpew shotguns and stabbystab knives aren't MELEE OR RANGED.

 

 

 

They need to enable defense and our shields to work on tech/force attacks as well. We have no damage as it is, and our Rocketpunch Resets + heat vent proc are reliant on it. I would feel a bit different if those 2 procs weren't there, IE if we had AP's 6sec 8heat vent and if rocket punch's cooldown was reduced, but neither of those are true.

 

They need to enable tanks to tank pl0x. We already do crap for damage.

[broaf]

They need to enable defense and our shields to work on tech/force attacks as well. We have no damage as it is, and our Rocketpunch Resets + heat vent proc are reliant on it. I would feel a bit different if those 2 procs weren't there, IE if we had AP's 6sec 8heat vent and if rocket punch's cooldown was reduced, but neither of those are true.

 

They need to enable tanks to tank pl0x. We already do crap for damage.

 

Crap damage? We must not be hitting the same buttons - im typically finishing with around 250k dmg, which is about average for the pure dps i run into. With more gear (battlemaster) i have no doubt we will be able to play objectively AND put out over 300k/WZ.

 

Its all about feeing your procs and smart use of our aoes.

 

And like i said in my previous post, against 90% of classes, i tank just fine. Agents and sorcs are our counter classes right now.

[BlazingShadow]

Crap damage? We must not be hitting the same buttons - im typically finishing with around 250k dmg, which is about average for the pure dps i run into. With more gear (battlemaster) i have no doubt we will be able to play objectively AND put out over 300k/WZ.

 

Its all about feeing your procs and smart use of our aoes.

 

And like i said in my previous post, against 90% of classes, i tank just fine. Agents and sorcs are our counter classes right now.

 

Do you have a screenshot? I'd love to see 300k dmg in a WZ from a tank. I cap out at about 180k dmg with generally 9-10 medals in a WZ, yo, so either you're the best survivalist of all time, NOT a full shieldtech, or a liar.

 

iF IT'S TRUE, I'd love to see it, I'd love to know that I'm doing something wrong and that it is possible. Otherwise, you're not adding anything productive to the conversation.

Edited January 16, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[broaf]

Do you have a screenshot? I'd love to see 300k dmg in a WZ from a tank. I cap out at about 180k dmg with generally 9-10 medals in a WZ, yo, so either you're the best survivalist of all time, NOT a full shieldtech, or a liar.

 

Read my post again (or for the first time?).

[BlazingShadow]

Read my post again (or for the first time?).

 

I'll settle for a screenshot for a 250k dmg shieldtech.

[broaf]

I'll settle for a screenshot for a 250k dmg shieldtech.

 

http://i.imgur.com/8n0KJ.jpg

[MasterXlos]

it would be cool it was in our talent tree to make shielding block all attack types that way we would have to invest in it if we wanted it also making it fair instead of just giving it to us.

 

I would even tie it with empowered tech instead of giving us a flat 10% Shield Chance change it something like:

 

 

5/5 empowered tech

Increase shield chance by 5% and shields absorb all attack types by 50% of current shield absorption rating

 

that way those other moves still do damage but we get the benefit of them working on all attack types + reducing the damage a bit....

[Amp_]

I'll settle for a screenshot for a 250k dmg shieldtech.

 

I wouldn't put much stock into screenshots until we see how classes perform in the 50 only bracket.

[Montijin]

http://i.imgur.com/8n0KJ.jpg

 

You're not shieldtech... You are playing with the ST/PT tree I can see incendiary missile on your loadout.

 

The problem is that there is no benefit to going 31 ST because the majority of damage mitigation for pvp (think 90% or more) can be achieved by only having 7 points in shieldtech--and the only skill thats really useful in the tree is Jet Charge.

 

 

This is why the Carolina Parakeet build is as useful as it is--you are more or less a tank in terms of utility, teamplay and survivability but you also damage like a strict dps player.

 

 

They need to put skills deep in the shieldtech, immortal, and darkness trees that buff the tank stances and simultaneously nerf the tank stances so that they are not as useful as they are now. Perhaps they should add that buff to the tank stance on the final tree talents to go along with the ability you get at 31. This way the tanks are able to mitigate around the same damage they mitigate now if they truly want to be a tank.

 

I understand this would kill certain dual-spec builds; but, fixing trees to be usable should be a priority over having dual specs useful.

 

This would give people a legitimate reason to spec into tank.

[DredlyLB]

I don't see anyone really having a ton of issues, the big issue that needs addressed is the Expertise and buffs and the impact they have in game... when I'm getting 1 hitted for 5k+ damage on a regular basis or you have 4 or 5 people beating on one person and they just laugh it off... that is where the issues need to be addressed

 

Tanks whole purpose should be absorbing damage from the person they are protecting. Tanks don't do damage, they catch it

[MaxDeeps]

I don't see anyone really having a ton of issues, the big issue that needs addressed is the Expertise and buffs and the impact they have in game... when I'm getting 1 hitted for 5k+ damage on a regular basis or you have 4 or 5 people beating on one person and they just laugh it off... that is where the issues need to be addressed

 

Tanks whole purpose should be absorbing damage from the person they are protecting. Tanks don't do damage, they catch it

 

That's not a very well thought out statement.

 

Just taunting and staying in step with the person you have Guard on in PvP being your whole purpose because your damage output is negligible is well, stupid, to put it frankly. Tanks sole purpose shouldn't just be a damage sponge in PvP. I certainly don't think that sounds like fun and I don't think many other would, either. That's TBC or Vanilla WoW era thinking. Even if it wasn't an asinine notion it would make leveling as a tank or doing quests as one intolerable, or getting threat while tanking for that matter.

 

The only people getting focused by 4-5 people and 'laughing it off' are going to be tanks with all their CDs popped (and even than any CC will bring them down) and after CDs are gone you go splat or a player getting a lot of heals.

[Blackire]

Agreed.

 

PVP tanking is about control; since aggro mechanism obviously cannot apply, tanking in SWTOR pvp utilizes the Guard mechanism. Whereas WAR also included a Vengeance mechanic to ensure that tanks were priority targets.

 

The PT spec/talent/pvp gear system is not broken per se, but like any design created for a multitude of potentially conflicting purposes lacks synergy across the board.

 

So coming from a purely pvp perspective, there are a number of things i suggest

 

1. Re-itemize our pvp tank gear. Given that defense/shield rating/absorb are limited in their utility and do not give full value for the stat budget, reitemize for endurance.

 

2. Remove pvp tank gear entirely and let us keep using dps pvp gear. Clears up confusion at least and will give us a clear idea of where they intend our class design to go.

 

3. Rather then leave us hanging on where pvp mitigation is supposed to go, clarify so that the Powertech community can help.

 

I firmly believe that Powertechs are almost working as designed.

 

We have good survivability, good mobility, decent dps and control.

 

Almost there. Bioware just needs to work with us.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Blackire

[pojectshadow]

imo the defense aspects are fine the way it is even with pure tank stats. IMO we are just node protectors and ball carriers and that's probably all we will be in pvp because there is no real "tank" in pvp. If shield proced on everything they would have to drastically lower the proc rate which would be bad for pve. We will never be able to kill dps 1v1 and that's how it should be or there would be no point to go dps; does it make us gimped in pvp yup but again, tank has always and forever be pve first they just gave tanks some group utility in pvp.

[Blackire]

Disagree absolutely. WAR did a pretty decent job of designing tankin roles in PVP. There should be no reason to assume that we should be relegated to mere defensive play.

 

Just to clarify, we should not be asking for much better mitigation per se, but rather more consistent mitigation that works correctly with the stats our pvp tanking gear already gives us.

 

I highly doubt that BW would give tanks the damage dealing ability we currently have if they did not mean us to be effective dmg dealers.

[broaf]

We will never be able to kill dps 1v1

 

Sorry, but i disagree completely. We have the capability to kill a dps 1v1 nine times out of ten - but our lack of burst makes 1v1 against a healer or a good sorc dps nightmarish(but not impossible).

 

Our mitigation is fine, our damage is fine. If youre feeling weak or squishy, look to your level or gear, not class mechanics. Play smart, we arent the huntard class.

[AnubisXy]

I'm just going to say that Bioware is playing a sick hoax on its players by selling PvP gear with +Shield and +Absorption when those stats do nothing in PvP.

 

Either Bioware needs to change the stats on that gear. Or it needs to take the gear off the vendor so that new players don't waste valuable PvP rewards buying it. Or Bioware needs to change it so that Shield and Absorption do something in PvP.

[thasaint]

Team sorc rolls me every time, I'm 5 piece supercommando champion gear with champion gun, bracers, and 1 relic, everthing else is 50 epic tanking stats with tons of shield, absorb, and defense. Operatives roll me as well. If I don't trinket the knock down I'm at 1/4 hp or less by the time i get up. If I trinket the KD I get stunned and killed anyway. How is the "rogue" archetype that's supposed to kill sorcs/sages murdering a fully pvp tank geared shield tech? Feels like I can only truly tank when i pop my 25% dmg redux long cooldown. Who exactly am I supposed to be tanking? Only snipers? Edited January 18, 2012 by thasaint

[thasaint]

Agreed.

 

PVP tanking is about control; since aggro mechanism obviously cannot apply, tanking in SWTOR pvp utilizes the Guard mechanism. Whereas WAR also included a Vengeance mechanic to ensure that tanks were priority targets.

 

The PT spec/talent/pvp gear system is not broken per se, but like any design created for a multitude of potentially conflicting purposes lacks synergy across the board.

 

So coming from a purely pvp perspective, there are a number of things i suggest

 

1. Re-itemize our pvp tank gear. Given that defense/shield rating/absorb are limited in their utility and do not give full value for the stat budget, reitemize for endurance.

 

2. Remove pvp tank gear entirely and let us keep using dps pvp gear. Clears up confusion at least and will give us a clear idea of where they intend our class design to go.

 

3. Rather then leave us hanging on where pvp mitigation is supposed to go, clarify so that the Powertech community can help.

 

I firmly believe that Powertechs are almost working as designed.

 

We have good survivability, good mobility, decent dps and control.

 

Almost there. Bioware just needs to work with us.

Exactly on point #3... I'm so tired of arguing this point, I just want clarification so I can expect a change or just move on.

[DredlyLB]

That's not a very well thought out statement.

 

Just taunting and staying in step with the person you have Guard on in PvP being your whole purpose because your damage output is negligible is well, stupid, to put it frankly. Tanks sole purpose shouldn't just be a damage sponge in PvP. I certainly don't think that sounds like fun and I don't think many other would, either. That's TBC or Vanilla WoW era thinking. Even if it wasn't an asinine notion it would make leveling as a tank or doing quests as one intolerable, or getting threat while tanking for that matter.

 

The only people getting focused by 4-5 people and 'laughing it off' are going to be tanks with all their CDs popped (and even than any CC will bring them down) and after CDs are gone you go splat or a player getting a lot of heals.

 

Everything is a balancing act, the further you go away into Tank the further you go from DPS. Should you still do damage? yeah, should it be anything even remotely impressive? no.

 

A tank has traded their ability to kill for their ability to not die and protect others. Its always been this way, you can't have your cake and eat it too which is exactly what you want. If you want to still do damage but tank then you need to go hybrid. Tanks are strictly protectors, they are not damage machines.

 

Generally speaking an unsupported tank should lose to a DPS pretty regularly assuming the DPS has health packs. The damage they can do will wear down a tanks ability to resist while the tank tries to get weak hits on the DPS. With a long cooldown on med packs and a nearly unlimited amount of damage that a DPS can hand out, the tank will eventually fall. (this is assuming 2 players of equal skill, level... etc). Tanks are support classes.

 

I also believe that a tank would see much more value if it wasn't for the massive boosts that the adrenals and expertise provide. When you are supposed to hit for 2k and now are hitting for 5k+ even with massive reductions it throws the balance of damage to defense way off and makes it worthless being a tank. Then again Tanks can also boost up with them and shrug off massive damage, not sure how effective the tank adrenals are

[DredlyLB]

Exactly on point #3... I'm so tired of arguing this point, I just want clarification so I can expect a change or just move on.

 

I don't think we were designed to be straight tanks in the PT build. If you look at the enhancments to the abilities they get pretty poor the further you go up the tree. I mean an increase of 10% to sheild attacks... when shield blocks barely anything? how does that help.

 

I think they built the PT class to be a hybrid. As a BH if you are a master of one you will fail, you need to be a jack of all trades to survive as you are always alone on missions against very strong bad guys... so being a straight tank or straight DPS will evnetually put you up against an enemy that counters you completely, as a hybrid you are ready for anything, and thus more BH

 

The Sith Juggers seem to be the real tanks with tons of damage reduction abilities including near immunitys

[thasaint]

Unfortunately due to no dual spec I can't have seperate builds for pvp and pve... or else I would've just done a hybrid spec for pvp already.

[Blackire]

@Dredly

 

Again I disagree. Any 1 v 1 between a tank and dps should be a 50/50 contest. The dps trying to burst the tank down, the tank wearing the dps down.

 

Impressive dps? No. Respectable? Yes.

 

Please note that currently most of the chart topping PTs are not specced for tanking.

 

Dont believe that tanks should be relegated to just pure portable meatshield status. I give you the WAR tanking designs; offensive and defensive juggernauts.

 

And either way, you're missing the thrust of my point(pun unintended).

 

I am asking for clarification on our class design, reitemization of our pvp tanking items(which dont work properly right now). Barring that, some form of fix that will allow us to convert those existing useless stats to a usable form.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Blackire

[Seyyal]

agree with OP. in most games tanks cant mitigate magic dmg too well.

i think reclassifying certain attacks is probably the better way to go.

 

the major thing would be to reitemize our pvp gear cuz its worthless atm.

[DredlyLB]

@Dredly

 

Again I disagree. Any 1 v 1 between a tank and dps should be a 50/50 contest. The dps trying to burst the tank down, the tank wearing the dps down.

 

Impressive dps? No. Respectable? Yes.

 

Please note that currently most of the chart topping PTs are not specced for tanking.

 

Dont believe that tanks should be relegated to just pure portable meatshield status. I give you the WAR tanking designs; offensive and defensive juggernauts.

 

And either way, you're missing the thrust of my point(pun unintended).

 

I am asking for clarification on our class design, reitemization of our pvp tanking items(which dont work properly right now). Barring that, some form of fix that will allow us to convert those existing useless stats to a usable form.

 

Ideally I would say yes, I agree that the 2 extremes (Pure tank / Pure DPS) should end in a near draw 9 times out of 10 with luck of critical being the deciding factor. The DPS should wear out and eventually be left with nothing to do but run around and throw weak attacks at the tank while the tank keeps up a steady barrage of damage.

 

But when the crucial tanking abilities have an extended delay and the DPS do not there is not much of a fair fight.

 

For example our real "shield" ability has a 2 min cool down, our reduce heat has a 1 min and our primary CC has a 1 min cooldown. So the whole time we are taking full damage. Meanwhile the DPS has a least 1 health pack that will heal for 3k+ and 1 pvp health stim that will heal for 3k+, and while the Tank also has access to the same heals it will take much less time for the DPS to strip that health away.

 

The big thing the tank has that should tip the scales would be additional CC and interrupts to stop the powerful abilities but these are also on long timers and the DPS classes have more CC abilities which last longer...

 

Tanks should never have good DPS and DPS should never have good Armor... when one gets to much it gets off balanced and you start seeing a bunch of the classes appearing.

 

There is a reason there are so few tanks in PVP and so many DPS . There are at least 2 - 3 Sith Sorcs or Inqs for every Jugger and easily 2 - 3 operatives for every BH Shield